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Galm Fae
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
67
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Posted - 2013.08.22 20:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't see how CONCORD could clear a strike by the Empire that would mean the destruction and enslavement of the entire Republic. This is a one sided arguement, the Amarr have no grounds for invasion. |
Galm Fae
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 03:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yun Hee Ryeon wrote:Galm Fae wrote:I don't see how CONCORD could clear a strike by the Empire that would mean the destruction and enslavement of the entire Republic. This is a one sided arguement, the Amarr have no grounds for invasion. The empires (or associated entities, such as the Minmatar Elders) have been known to either circumvent or outright attack CONCORD when there are sufficient interests at stake. Nation states, in dealing among themselves, exist in a state of anarchy. This is as true for interstellar empires as it would have been for a planetary nation. Complying with international law is more a matter of public relations and keeping on good terms with one's neighbors than of crime and punishment the way we normally think of it, and CONCORD is more mediator than police officer, where the empires are concerned. Actually, this is pretty much the way capsuleers relate to one another, as well-- as mini nation states-- though in their case CONCORD is a little bit more of a force to be reckoned with. How can anyone act as moderator in this situation though? They can't authorize "just a little bit" of inquisition. You are either for a tyrannical foreign power invading a populous and enslaving them, or you chose to stand with those who oppose it. This appeasement towards the Amarr to stop the escalation of conflict is just... Just... Total bullshit frankly! We should be laying down sanctions on the Empire, not aiding their conquest. |
Galm Fae
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 06:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yun Hee Ryeon wrote:Galm Fae wrote:How can anyone act as moderator in this situation though? They can't authorize "just a little bit" of inquisition. You are either for a tyrannical foreign power invading a populous and enslaving them, or you chose to stand with those who oppose it. This appeasement towards the Amarr to stop the escalation of conflict is just... Just... Total bullshit frankly! We should be laying down sanctions on the Empire, not aiding their conquest. ... Inquisition? I ... do not think this word means quite what you seem to think. Leaving that aside, there are many ways to play a neutral role-- notably, standing back and observing. The Sisters of Eve will be sending medical craft and supplies to both sides, for example. Most capsuleers will similarly take no side, busying themselves with their private affairs. CONCORD will probably keep the peace for as long as it can, then stand back, cluck its tongue disapprovingly, and try to drag all concerned to some kind of truce as soon as anything that vaguely resembles a stalemate appears. The interesting question is what the State will do. The Caldari don't approve of conquerors, generally (they tend to be willing to conquer more than just our enemies), but the Amarr are allies, however much some might wish it were otherwise. At most, I suspect that the State will continue its simmering conflict against the Gallente, and only involve itself to mirror and counteract Federal involvement. That, of course, could lead to quite a conflagration if the pattern escalates. Is that not the word? I was led to believe that the term in context to the Amarr was in reference to some form of tribunal in charge of investigating, uprooting, and punishing those guilty of heresy in the name of their scriptures. I didn't mean it literally of course, I am sure any execution of heretics at the hands of the Amarr during a Reclamation would be a bit more extrajudicial than that. I am no holy man and as you can imagine given our career choice memories can sometimes become horribly disjointed, so I could be wrong. It matters little, I suppose I should be happy that I am not drooling from the mouth and uttering a word salad right now from my old implants.
Semantics aside, you know my opinions on the Empire Ryeon-haani. No use flogging a dead horse. Were it up to me, I would see the current Empire leveled, the Khanid placed in power, and the Amarr Empire made into a nice little puppet state for us Caldari.
Ironic, I know. |
Galm Fae
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 19:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yun Hee Ryeon wrote:
An important distinction that you seem to be missing is the one between "heretic" (offshoots of the Amarrian faith such as the Sani Sabik and EoM), which are likely to be killed where possible (they have, as I understand the logic goes, turned away from heaven's door once and cannot, therefore, gain entry)
Is that not what the Matari have done though? The cornerstone of the Minmatar was the denial of the Amarr god and the unification of enslaved peoples into one Republic. "Heretic" fits them perfectly. I am sure some Matari would wear that title proudly. The reason why they have not been declared as such is simply a matter of politics and effciency. There are far too many of them to wipe out without the entire universe taking notice, and without the slave labor that drove the Amarr their society begins to erode. It would be much more convenient to call the invasion a Reclamation and feed off the spoils it provides in not killing off the enemy. They need the Minmatar. Even if the age of slavery is coming to an end, the Amarr will still need a working man's social caste that the Republic will fill beautifully.
Not that it really makes a difference how many people they try to enslave, because a war with the Republic would be an outright slaughter. If the Minmatar are threatened by an all-out invasion, they would enter a state of total war. Every man, woman and child would fight and organize against the Amarr in the name of the Republic that they had worked so hard to form. As you said, suuolo, for them it is truely better to die on their feet than live on their knees.
Quote:Perhaps you see the Amarr as monstrous and our association with them as unconscionable, but you forget too soon and too easily. You have swallowed the individualists' bait, forgetting how fine and subtle the hook is, and they have dragged you to their side, jaalan. The Gallente are no more monsters than the Amarr, but their way of life is antithetical to ours, and they, unlike the Amarr, actively and presently seek our cultures' destruction.
You have been played.
Do not mistake my alternative priorities as complacency towards the Federation. Rukkui dai, lai dai. I don't esspecially like the Amarr, there is no doubt about that, but that isn't my soul reasoning for advocating my beliefs. The Amarr are only our allies in the sense that they are not currently trying to enslave us. We all need to remember that the enemy of our enemy is not our friend, they are our enemy's enemy. Nothing more, nothing less. If anything, they threaten the State now more than ever by wrapping themselves in war rather than assisting us with the current war with the Gallente.
You need to look at this from a tactician's view. War with the Federation is a stalemate lost in a quagmire of political intrigue. Clearly whatever we are doing just isn't working, so why do we keep insisting on throwing resources into the meatgrinder over an extended period of time when we can throw in a game-changer and end it now? In organizing to place the Khanid in power, we could talk down a war with the Matari that would bleed resources from our little marionette empire, leaving the Republic to their own devices. We could then redirect the attention of the Amarr into aiding in the war against the Federation directly.
It wouldn't be the first time a move on that scale has succeeded. |
Galm Fae
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 19:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
My beef with the Gallente extends only to retaking Caldari Prime and the annexation of certain Intaki planets. It wouldn't make sense for the State to actively seek to destory the Federation, it is bad for business. Therefore our war with the Gallente is of no concern to your kind who exist within the Federation.
Additionally, I don't believe you give your Republic enough credit. The war with Amarr is a war for cultural identity. A Khanid led kingdom would pose no threat to your people. Spirits, it would hardly even be the same empire it was before. If your people would still insist on launching war, then tough. An Empire with strengthened ties to the State would be a force to be reckoned with, but not a threat unless you insist on making it one. |
Galm Fae
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 22:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
A few things:
Quote:What planets are you exactly speaking of? Your goals might conflict with the ones of Intaki Liberation Front.
I assure you, you have nothing to worry about. The Caldari and Intaki share a cultural bond, as I am sure you know. Certain populations within Intaki space have been at times oppressed by the Federation. I (personally) believe that Intaki populations should be allowed the process of self determination. Should they chose to become a part of the Caldari State, I would naturally support that right. Likewise, should certain areas in the Federation chose to side with the Syndicate, than we would have an obligation to establish them as a protectorate until they can make the transition.
Quote:No doubt there are economic considerations and such at play. You don't get to be a great power by being blindly idealistic. That said, I don't see much sign that the Amarr are exactly dependent on slave labor for all purposes. They use it, certainly, but theirs is not a society lacking underclasses or tradespeople.
Consider how few citizens of the Empire are True Amarr in relation to the amount of perviously enslaved races. If they left to their own devises the True Amarr would be inable to funtion as a race. They have become to soft and arrogant, refusing to take part in anything that actually requires any amount of physical exhertion. They would rather live the life of nobels, bred to look beautiful but gradually growing stupid like farm animals. Craftsmen are almost exclusively previously enslaved races that can never progress themselves further in society due to their "sin" of not being born a True Amarr. The Minmatar showed that there is another way of life for these people. They gave people a hope other than the false wishes that the Amarr provide in their scriptures.
The Amarr can't have that. Afterall, if the Minmatar inspire others to leave who will scrub the toilets? Who will man the starships, work the mines, water the gardens? How can they possibly hope to maintain an Empire so large if the Republic insists on breaking the illusion that they had worked to create around enslaved populations. Now do you see where I am coming from?
Quote:Do the Matari strike you as being close to despair?
No, but with their entire Republic at risk...
Some strike me as desperate. Some strike me with a sense of fury. Some are afraid, and others are enraged. Whatever the motivators, an offensive would spark a hotbed of emotional and political turmoil and unite it all against one common foe.
Quote:They are not going to back the State against the Empire, nor would they side with the Matari. Even if they did, the resulting power would be no puppet of ours, would have fewer qualms about hybridizing Amarrian technology with less antique forms, and would likely be back on its feet and seeking vengeance within a generation or two.
I don't think you understand my position on this. It isn't as simple as politely asking the Khanid to wipe out their own civilization. A strike against the Amarr would be aimed at removing only the standing nobility that has corrupted their society for so long. Culturally however, we can not hope to control the remaining empire unless we fill the power vacuum with a party that is familiar with how to run an Amarr society. The Khanid have become a perfect cultural infusion of Caldari and Amarr. Arguably we have better relations with them than the Amarr do for working closely with them after their exile. It would be the proverbial "IOU" fulfilled and would increase the Khanid's grip on power. I see no reason why they would turn down a perfectly good coup d'etat.
And if they don't we will find someone who will. Does slavery disguist me? Of course. But I would rather aim to ensure the continutity of the State than waste my breath taking down a cultural institution.
Following such a move, keeping Caldari interests would simply be a matter of working with those we have placed in power to fill eachother's needs. All the while, your average Amarr soldier can continue with their lives happy to continue serving a sovereign empire, albeit under a different regime.
I can't say I can think of a way to solve the slave issue. That is something fought on the desks of politicians and in the hearts of citizens. I merely aim to put into place a plan that would correct the Amarr's expansionist mindset and redirect their attention to areas better suited for combat.
Quote: Lest we also forget, the State has the lowest population of any empire. The Amarr have the largest. We are not likely to be able to hold what we take.
History is ripe with examples of small but powerful nations overcoming a larger enemy force. How do you think the Amarr ever grew so massive in the first place? War is about ambition and superior tactical solutions, not numbers. |
Galm Fae
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
73
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 22:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Then again... A coup would only require paramilitary support. Possibly without the direct involvement of any Caldari Navy ships in the first place.
This is why I love our debates, you help me think things through. Granted, I probably will never be able to put these plans into motion on my own, but it is nice to have plans. Before these talks, I just wanted to float around the universe and observe politics from the frontlines. Now I feel like maybe I can make a change.
Always a pleasure. |
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