DUST Search - CCP commander Wang

CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:

steadyhand amarr wrote:

I'm liking the new tone of the commander :-)

But in regards to the patch notes, sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can spot things people close to the project can't. Maths is maths afterall. Or the players can outright tell you how they are going to openly exploit a change.

We are the end customer and in the business word customers are a big part of the development process. The gaming world is no diffrent. Please work with us.

And stop using a live eniorment ti teat changes. It's bad practice full stop.

Well, I agree but sometimes people forget that this is something really new, a MMO on a console that is working towards a full connection with another MMO on a different platform. So this is something akin to getting a man on the moon, and there were problems along the way there. Did people troll the NASA space program when things didn't go according to plan? Or did they get back on the horse and help provide solutions?

We do listen to player feedback and some of them do make it into the game. It would be a lie to say that is not so. I know that it's taken longer than most of you on the forums would like, but it does take time to workout a solution when one is trodding down a path never traveled. A few of you on the forums have been with us all this time, so I am just asking you guys to keep on providing helpful feedback and a little less hate. Hope that's not too much to ask.

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Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 554	Posted - 2013.08.21 09:26:00 - [1] - Quote I wanted to make sure you see this post of mine from another thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1201747#post1201747 1 CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: BARDAS wrote: What are these patch notes that people speak of? Do you by chance mean the arcane scribble that magically appears 24 hours before a change takes place thus preventing any meaningful feedback from the community which could potentially prevent problems before they occur? If so yeah I may have heard about those once a while back. Its a shame we don't see them sooner for the aforementioned reason. How are you going to give us meaningful feedback before you even try the changes? Or is your brain so awesome that you can look into the future? And while we are on the subject of feedback, guys, a few one liners and a catch word here and there really doesn't help. If you really care about improving the game, then please structure your feedback in a way that will: 1. List specific issues and the circumstance when it happened. We then put these in a weekly report and discuss them with the dev team on ways to address this. 2. Provide insight on why you think this is happening, if you can. Translation, explain as best as you can on how to reproduce the error/bug you encountered. The patch notes are there to let players know what changes are coming so they can plan their gameplay accordingly, not so that people can theory craft before hand on how things will work before they actually try it. while I can understand your frustration with the community this post is slightly confrontational and unproductive... enough of us already do what you request and you all really don't listen... want an example? the academy, reducing it to 400 wp and then raising it to 1500... of all the threads/ feedback that specified issues with NPE what were you guys thinking pulling this hair brained move? how many threads for how long have you all read about the specifics of vehicle issues? yet you push back real fixes to 1.5 when something should have been done a long time ago... and these stupid "events" you all make... how much feedback do you need on those before you make them meaningful? the truth is for months, and some of us (not me) for YEARS have been giving you viable feedback and you all just spit in our faces repeatedly and this snarky little post of yours just proves what contempt you all seem to have for your customer base. screw your head on right... you guys are gifted and have a great product but you need to tone the ego down... the truth is you guys may know a lot but I can bet your player base plays this game A LOT more than you do on the tranq server and you would do well to heed our theory crafting cause it might save you months of re working your game... or did the release of uprising teach you nothing? Edit

CCP Cmdr Wang C C P C C P Alliance 2124	Posted - 2013.08.21 09:49:00 - [2] - Quote I did read it and some of the answers are here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1201909#post1201909 We should see more changes that address issues brought up on the forums. This is the goal of going into a monthly release cycle where we can focus on more specific changes in shorter amount of time.

steadyhand amarr Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1136	Posted - 2013.08.21 09:51:00 - [3] - Quote Just want to point out your increased presence on the fourms is a welcome change :-)
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 554	Posted - 2013.08.21 09:58:00 - [4] - Quote I give him that it is nice to see a dev interacting with us... even if it is borderline confrontational... it's nice to know you guys are actually hearing us...
Medic 1879 Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 929	Posted - 2013.08.21 10:00:00 - [5] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: I give him that it is nice to see a dev interacting with us... even if it is borderline confrontational... it's nice to know you guys are actually hearing us... Hearing does not equal listening lol.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 896	Posted - 2013.08.21 10:00:00 - [6] - Quote you kidding me? a dev getting borderline confrontational when every interaction WE have with them is telling them they dont even deserve to live? ya.....
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 554	Posted - 2013.08.21 10:03:00 - [7] - Quote Medic 1879 wrote: Seymor Krelborn wrote: I give him that it is nice to see a dev interacting with us... even if it is borderline confrontational... it's nice to know you guys are actually hearing us... Hearing does not equal listening lol. that's why I said hearing
Gunhilda Zetter DUST University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2013.08.21 10:04:00 - [8] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: I give him that it is nice to see a dev interacting with us... even if it is borderline confrontational... it's nice to know you guys are actually hearing us... Nothing wrong with a curt reply. It's nice to hear from someone with a personality rather than a crib sheet.
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 554	Posted - 2013.08.21 10:04:00 - [9] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: you kidding me? a dev getting borderline confrontational when every interaction WE have with them is telling them they dont even deserve to live? ya..... its not like the community got hostile over night... the cultivated this relationship....its there job to fix it
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 898	Posted - 2013.08.21 10:09:00 - [10] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: you kidding me? a dev getting borderline confrontational when every interaction WE have with them is telling them they dont even deserve to live? ya..... its not like the community got hostile over night... they cultivated this relationship....its there job to fix it CCP has some of the best communication and player driven development of today's games. In addition, it is common knowledge that dealing with the console fps crowd is like dealing with the shittiest, most irritating, entitled, irrational child ever.

Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 554	Posted - 2013.08.21 10:14:00 - [11] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Seymor Krelborn wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: you kidding me? a dev getting borderline confrontational when every interaction WE have with them is telling them they dont even deserve to live? ya..... its not like the community got hostile over night... they cultivated this relationship....its there job to fix it CCP has some of the best communication and player driven development of today's games. In addition, it is common knowledge that dealing with the console fps crowd is like dealing with the shittiest, most irritating, entitled, irrational child ever. im a fan of EVE... I play casually...so you don't need to defend them to me....I like what they do... im also a console player and know many more who aren't what you describe... most of the people who act that way are actually children, not just acting like them.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 66	Posted - 2013.08.21 13:50:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: I did read it and some of the answers are here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1201909#post1201909 We should see more changes that address issues brought up on the forums. This is the goal of going into a monthly release cycle where we can focus on more specific changes in shorter amount of time. Thanks for info
Akdhar Saif Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:00:00 - [13] - Quote cmdr wang is best wang
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 187	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:01:00 - [14] - Quote There is a stickied thread on the feedback forums telling us specifically to NOT make lists. Should read the stickies Wang. EDIT Also it you think that people can't predict what will happen off patch notes you're off your rocker. A thousand eyes and minds on one subject can see it from all angles. Someone from imperfects said shield tanks would become useless when you took away the way dmg stacked on turrets and low and behold.... Would find the link but I'm on my phone. It was a very large and well put together.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 991	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:08:00 - [15] - Quote The EVE and DUST communities are not that different. It's about the same level whining and entitlement probably because so many have come from and still are a part of EVE. We do have more players that have come over from other game communities which tend to compare DUST to their previous passions. Its good to have new blood to shake things up and demand a higher level of quality. The difference, which has been pointed out many times, is the amount of information that is released by the DUST team compared to the EVE team. We, the players, feel like we're in the dark until changes are suddenly dropped on us. Maybe its because DUST is such a young game and EVE is well established. Since DUST development is such a black box I can only speculate what is happening inside. I am a programmer. Software development is hard. It takes a lot more time than most people think. I'm sure the pressure is very high on the DUST team to get the game to the next level and I'm surprised we haven't had more push back from the developers. But, the players are shareholders too and are included so late in the process that it frustrates us.
Mamertine Son R.E.B.E.L.S 193	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:09:00 - [16] - Quote Quote: The patch notes are there to let players know what changes are coming so they can plan their gameplay accordingly, not so that people can theory craft before hand on how things will work before they actually try it. Well put commander. Recent example: wolfman mentions the armor buff and posts pop up all over the place about how its still only helping shield tankers or how its a secret buff to MD's or something. So yeah, I can see your hesitation to talking about patch releases before they come out especially when you specifically mentioned that there would be an upcoming restriction to shield extenders depending on 1.4's results and people still yelled at you for only helping the shield tankers. +1 to mr. wang
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 993	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:31:00 - [17] - Quote Mamertine Son wrote: Quote: The patch notes are there to let players know what changes are coming so they can plan their gameplay accordingly, not so that people can theory craft before hand on how things will work before they actually try it. Well put commander. Recent example: wolfman mentions the armor buff and posts pop up all over the place about how its still only helping shield tankers or how its a secret buff to MD's or something. So yeah, I can see your hesitation to talking about patch releases before they come out especially when you specifically mentioned that there would be an upcoming restriction to shield extenders depending on 1.4's results and people still yelled at you for only helping the shield tankers. +1 to mr. wang Those posts are discussions about a pending change. We can either not discuss what is coming and just live with it or debate the changes and maybe, just maybe, something good will come from it. If there is no discussion then we may as well close the forums, stop talking on IRC and unfollow on Twitter. Look at the ship balancing threads for EVE Odyssey. Some serious issues were caught and fixed before they were locked down for Odyssey 1.1. That's all we are asking for here. The opportunity to discuss what is coming before it is set in stone. Not what has arrived because we know it takes two to three months for something to be rebalanced. Changing things again wastes even more developer time.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 23	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:31:00 - [18] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: you kidding me? a dev getting borderline confrontational when every interaction WE have with them is telling them they dont even deserve to live? ya..... You could not be more dead on! If I were a dev I would not be so nice given all the crap they get here. I mean, damn, just read the OP and put yourself in their shoes. If any of you whiny, self-entitled children spoke to me like that I would spank you and send you to bed without dinner, lol.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1716	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:32:00 - [19] - Quote Mamertine Son wrote: Quote: The patch notes are there to let players know what changes are coming so they can plan their gameplay accordingly, not so that people can theory craft before hand on how things will work before they actually try it. Well put commander. Recent example: wolfman mentions the armor buff and posts pop up all over the place about how its still only helping shield tankers or how its a secret buff to MD's or something. So yeah, I can see your hesitation to talking about patch releases before they come out especially when you specifically mentioned that there would be an upcoming restriction to shield extenders depending on 1.4's results and people still yelled at you for only helping the shield tankers. +1 to mr. wang Why? Is feedback and discussion a bad thing? You've got arguments from all sides on these issues, which gives well rounded feedback to the devs to consider when they look at their data mined metrics.
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 134	Posted - 2013.08.21 14:37:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: I'm liking the new tone of the commander :-) But in regards to the patch notes, sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can spot things people close to the project can't. Maths is maths afterall. Or the players can outright tell you how they are going to openly exploit a change. We are the end customer and in the business word customers are a big part of the development process. The gaming world is no diffrent. Please work with us. And stop using a live eniorment ti teat changes. It's bad practice full stop. Well, I agree but sometimes people forget that this is something really new, a MMO on a console that is working towards a full connection with another MMO on a different platform. So this is something akin to getting a man on the moon, and there were problems along the way there. Did people troll the NASA space program when things didn't go according to plan? Or did they get back on the horse and help provide solutions? We do listen to player feedback and some of them do make it into the game. It would be a lie to say that is not so. I know that it's taken longer than most of you on the forums would like, but it does take time to workout a solution when one is trodding down a path never traveled. A few of you on the forums have been with us all this time, so I am just asking you guys to keep on providing helpful feedback and a little less hate. Hope that's not too much to ask. This is your problem right here CCP, everyone at CCP working on DUST514 needs to read this post from Wang, and if you find yourself stuck in this mentality you need to immediately banish it from your mind FOREVER. You guys have far too many ideas in your head at the same time, pulling you in so many different directions that you don't even know what areas of this very broken game need to be focused on. How you can possibly think about "getting a man on the moon" when you still have yet to invent an airplane that can get off the ground? What you should have done since day one, and what you must do now, is focus ALL of your attention on building an FPS that actually functions. You have to make sure your foundation is set, and set so solidly that you'll never need to change it or think about it again. You should not need to reinvent the way propeller planes fly when you are building your spaceship. Even if it's just starting with a 1v1 fight and making sure every aspect of that is solid and then moving forward, that is the approach you must take. Once you lock down flawless mechanics for an individual's aiming, hit-detection, movement, weapon balance, and FUN (you still fail to include fun) then you can move forward. For instance, why are you adding new weapons when the ones that currently exist are not balanced and do not function properly? What do you think will happen when you add more weapons onto an already horribly unbalanced system? You waste so much time introducing new weapons and then trying to balance them- but you're trying to balance them on a completely unbalanced foundation. How can you expect to build towards to moon when the foundation is constantly changing? You have just spent the last few updates and many months trying to balance out the Mass Driver and Flaylocks, among others, but what is going to happen to that 'balance' when the underlying mechanics are completely overhauled? At this point I would say that your only real path forward is to just shut it down, for a year, 6 months, or however much time it takes you to build a solid, stable, unchanging foundation of proper FPS mechanics. Then when you go to add all of these cool amazing ideas you have you will not be held back from reaching the moon because you forgot to install the fuel tanks.

Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 190	Posted - 2013.08.21 15:43:00 - [21] - Quote Bump for ridiculousness.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 601	Posted - 2013.08.21 17:00:00 - [22] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: I give him that it is nice to see a dev interacting with us... even if it is borderline confrontational... it's nice to know you guys are actually hearing us... The Commander's emergence can mean only one thing. Somebody or Something is soon to be Wang Banged: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=840009 Items likeliest to incur the Wrath of Wang: AFKers Mass Driver Forge Gun LLAVs TeamPlayers
Marek Seven Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.08.21 17:10:00 - [23] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: I give him that it is nice to see a dev interacting with us... even if it is borderline confrontational... it's nice to know you guys are actually hearing us... I'd rather he be confrontational against the jerks on these forums than not. Nice only takes you so far - some people continue to badger "nice" because they see that as the sign of a weak person.
Yan Darn DUST University Ivy League 22	Posted - 2013.08.21 19:21:00 - [24] - Quote Mamertine Son wrote: Quote: The patch notes are there to let players know what changes are coming so they can plan their gameplay accordingly, not so that people can theory craft before hand on how things will work before they actually try it. Well put commander. Recent example: wolfman mentions the armor buff and posts pop up all over the place about how its still only helping shield tankers or how its a secret buff to MD's or something. So yeah, I can see your hesitation to talking about patch releases before they come out especially when you specifically mentioned that there would be an upcoming restriction to shield extenders depending on 1.4's results and people still yelled at you for only helping the shield tankers. +1 to mr. wang This doesn't make sense to me. The very fact that a dev responded in this way is a positive sign to me, precisely because it shows they are not scared of the community. If Devs aren't scared of the toxic trolls and ranters, they got enough grit to say 'we're planning to do x, y, z in response to acknowledged problems a, b, c' - I would presume and very much hope they are then capable of sifting through the inevitable BS to pick out the intelligent and evidenced posts that can highlight the inevitable issues those changes will bring. Issues being inevitable aren't because of incompetence on CCPs part - they are inevitable because a team responsible for a game many, many times larger than them could not possibly predict and understand everything that might occur because of them [changes]. If only they had just a couple of hundred or so people who could play-test this game for them and be passionate about understanding (and exploiting) the game mechanics enough to give valid feedback in time to at least avoid some of those issues...
crazy space 1 Unkn0wn Killers 1567	Posted - 2013.08.21 19:22:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: I did read it and some of the answers are here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1201909#post1201909 We should see more changes that address issues brought up on the forums. This is the goal of going into a monthly release cycle where we can focus on more specific changes in shorter amount of time. But you never tell is what you are doing untill you content lock it , so your work is literally useless also there hasn't been a single set of complete patch notes for a dust release EVER Not once was every change included in the patch notes. How can you people be ok with this :/
But What Planetary Response Organisation 3	Posted - 2013.08.21 19:40:00 - [26] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: [quote=CCP Cmdr Wang][quote=steadyhand amarr] At this point I would say that your only real path forward is to just shut it down, for a year, 6 months, or however much time it takes you to build a solid, stable, unchanging foundation of proper FPS mechanics. Then when you go to add all of these cool amazing ideas you have you will not be held back from reaching the moon because you forgot to install the fuel tanks. THIS WOULD HELP YOUS VERY MUCH, yes i mean the cap lock lol
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 817	Posted - 2013.08.21 19:51:00 - [27] - Quote Am I the only one who just saw the guy JUST make a reply? what's with the confrontational crap? That's confrontational? Geez... wonder how I sound to you guys? like a bully My ass. When have I called them nerds? ...... don't answer that.


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