Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:From an AVer perspective:
I *love* this idea. I think it's a very deadly way for tanks to roll, and certainly won't be an easy one if multiple tanks are fitting/using reppers on each other. Great post.
My only real concern is that this will drastically beef up the tanks. Not from the HP perspective(that's a given), but more from a counter perspective. Right now, infantry does not have EWAR, which is one of the primary counters in EVE to spider tanking (Cap warfare, ECM). Therefore, an infrantry player has no way of canceling out the repair cycles once they've gone live. This means that a few tanks can sit there just focusing reps on the person getting damaged, negating *multiple* proto AV players (at least on paper). It's a very deadly tactic, and while I applaud it's conception, I just hope it does not 'go big' until CCP has introduced some EWAR modules to the infantry. The ability to cancel locks, or some other form of on-tank capacitor system (I really hope they do this - infinite capacitor on a tank seems silly) would be a great way to prevent this from getting over-used. A capacitor system especially would be very interesting to see, and I think would be a great start towards not only balancing great tactics like this (note I said BALANCING, not NERFING). Personally, the idea of a bricked out hybrid tank roaming around with 2 all out assault tanks, pushing reps on them is a crazy cool idea (Providing the functionality of a true "heavy" LLAV).
Carry on 'ol chap!
They're still vulnerable to alpha damage, and the gap between reps can prove fatal. It does take more AV to take them down (you're probably not going to solo them, for example) but it's no different, really to killing two protobears instead of one. Combined arms tends to be a good response; tankers frequently overextend to try to fight one of their own. Especially when they think they can mash it up easily.
The concept of 'Alpha' sounds great on paper, but in reality is a bit trickier than that.
A Heavy with 2 Complex Damage Mods(The most they can carry right now), and a Proto Breach Forge Gun with Level 4 Proficiency does 3,582 damage(rounded up), before damage reduction. We'll use that as a damage baseline, because any other gun would require far too many people on a team with Prototype AV to provide enough 'Alpha'.
We'll use the Mardrugar used in the OP as the 'Target', with 3000 shields and 5000 armor. We'll also assume he is a good tanker, and has his inherent 10% damage reduction from Skills. We will assume NO HARDENERS are active as well, for the sake of hopefully securing the kill. Normally, a Mardrugar would have 2 hardeners running, but I don't know if his fit forgoes those to get the Remote Rep setup w/ local rep that he's talking about.
Breach Forge Gun Shot 1
3582 - 715(-20% = Shield Inherent -10% to Hybrid + -10% Skill Reduction) = 2867 Total Damage to Shields
Tank HP = 133 Shields / 5000 Armor
Breach Forge Gun Shot 2
3852 - 162(Remaining Shields, -20% = Shield Inherent -10% to Hybrid + -10% Skill Reduction) - 3692 (To Armor, 0% - Armor Inherent +10% from Hybrid + -10% Skill Reduction) = 3692 Total Damage to Armor
Tank HP = 1308 Armor
Breach Forge Gun Shot 3
Destroys Tank(Overkill by 2544 damage)
This is about the most reasonable end of the spectrum I could envision, which you *might* see in a pub game. And yes, I will talk pub game about this, because that's where you're likely to see this sort of stomp-tactics(And PC has OB's and team-wide coordination, which makes the alpha much more of a possibility)
So First, you need 3 Heavies with clear LOS, Proto Breach Forge Guns, 2 Complex Damage Mods, and Proficiency 4. This is a tall order, and requires quite a bit of specialization to begin with.
Next, you need them to all be on the same team, and somehow be coordinated enough to get shots off within 1-2 seconds of each other, which requires Comms. Not something you will see in a Public Match, and also not something you see in most Premade Squads(I've only ever rolled with 1 other Forge Gunner at a time).
While it looks great and doable on paper, the reality is that your average player only has STD or ADV AV, which does not give access to Breach forge guns, and has about half the damage output listed above. That would mean it would require roughly 6 players (Possibly 7, I don't have the ADV forge values in front of me) packing ADV forge guns to output the same damage as the 3 Breach Forge Guns above. Coordinating 3 players is hard - coordinating 6 is downright insane. Additionaly, this is a LARGE chunk of your team! Even IF you could get the players together to do it, you are leaving them very vulnerable to standard infantry, unless the rest of the team is dedicated to running interference(which would of course mean the objective is WIDE open for the other team).
And finally, the numbers above do not include Hardeners. If the enemy tank is running hardeners, it can easily push the number of people required to 4, with the same stats as above(Proto AV, Level 4 Prof, Breach).
I don't even think it's possible with Swarms due missile travel time, and the fact that the other tanks can intercept the missiles, spreading out the damage(especially considering how close you need to be to spider tank in the first place), and Grenades have a cycle time between throws - plenty of time(for a good tanker) to activate the local rep and bug out before the other grenades dropped. Not to mention how many people have to be swarming the tank with Proto Nades in order to achieve the necessary level of alpha (Hint: ALOT! :) ).