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Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
4047
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Posted - 2013.08.16 11:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
1st off i know CCP said there are technical problems atm that preventing them from properly implementing real armor role bonuses to suits this is more a module suggestion
armor will continue to suck till extenders and plates start raising their respective HP by a % and not a hard number, that way a shield suit will get more HP from using shield extenders than an armor suit and an armor suit will get more HP from using plates than a shield suit would.
Problem we face now is no matter how much u buff armor plates by a HARD number nothing stoppin a shield suit like the cal logi with 4 low slots from equippin some plates and dual tankin and still b more effective than a gal logi suit. Modules (and this can be extended to vehicles as well) need to raise HP by a %
Example: Shield suit with 500 shield and 100 armor using plates that raise HP by 25% would have 500 shield and 125 armor and an armor based suit rocking 100 shield and 500 armor using the same 25% plate would now have 100 shield and 625 armor
The shield suit only gets a bonus of 25HP while the armor suit gets a buff of 125HP
Implementing this stops dual tankin an makes Armor actually good
in contrast to current system where Extenders and plates give u a hard value u end up with both suits gettin the same amount of HP and since shields are better it makes dual tankin shield suits much more viable and the upcoming reduced movement penalty ur gonna see ALOT more dual tanking shield suits.
Also role bonuses, amarr and more importantly gallente NEED better role bonuses to armor to make armor tanking viable. Reduced movement penalty bonus or built in armor reps
to balance that armor based suits would then need their shield recharge delay increased cuz currently every suit regens shields at the same time
Urging u CCP to rethink how u have your extenders and plates setup cuz u will never imho achieve armor vs shield balance till it moves to a % and not a hard value , and thats just to start, role bonuses are next but their are technical problems with that atm but this is a good start to work on. |
Text Grant
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
98
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Posted - 2013.08.16 12:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
This would help gal and cal but screw minis. No thank you |
Blade Masterson
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
6
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Posted - 2013.08.16 13:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Text Grant wrote:This would help gal and cal but screw minis. No thank you
Also with Amarr since thwy are dual tankers 180 base shield and armor |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
199
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Posted - 2013.08.16 13:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm also in favor of relative shield and armor bonuses.
In general the suits need more suitable (hah!  ) role and race bonuses. Why do Caldari Assaults get a bonus to the efficacy of shield extenders when they're supposed to use active shield tanking? Why do Amarr Logistics suits get a bonus to the efficacy of armor repair modules when they're supposed to use passive armor tanking? Why don't Gallente suits get the bonus to armor repairs?
... I'm going to enter the business of sense making. The market is severely under-supplied right now. |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
Eternal Syndicate
644
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Posted - 2013.08.16 13:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
I love the idea of this thread . QQ shield tankers can equip armour plates snif snif. Wow you acctually are crying because some mercs can fit effective tank I.e. hybrid tanking is something that takes heavy sp investment to do it right. Why not put some sp into shield skills and try it out. Or are you one of these I dont need shield skills cos im an armour tanker kind of guys. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
777
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Posted - 2013.08.16 14:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Blade Masterson wrote:Text Grant wrote:This would help gal and cal but screw minis. No thank you Also with Amarr since thwy are dual tankers 180 base shield and armor
Hence why the OP also mentioned better passive skill racial bonuses for them.
Min and Amarr won't get the same capacity bonuses, but they could be given better rep bonuses, or resistance bonuses, or speed bonuses, etc.
The suggestion is sound. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
777
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Posted - 2013.08.16 14:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:I love the idea of this thread . QQ shield tankers can equip armour plates snif snif. Wow you acctually are crying because some mercs can fit effective tank I.e. hybrid tanking is something that takes heavy sp investment to do it right. Why not put some sp into shield skills and try it out. Or are you one of these I dont need shield skills cos im an armour tanker kind of guys.
You don't see shield guys hybrid tanking right now why?
Because their shields are completely sufficient.
People armor tanking right now have done it because of it's intended role.
Armor suits = Brawlers.
Shield suits = Skirmishers.
Shields drop fast, and regens fast.
Armor is SUPPOSED to drop slow and regen slow.
They spec'd into armor suits for a specific playstyle. A playstyle that shields does not (or rather WAS not supposed to) provide.
I don't think there is a problem with shielders hybrid tanking though. Their shield regulation would take a big hit, so all they are left with is a big shield that drops fast, but doesn't regen fast enough. Meanwhile, armor guys will have high capacity armor and excellent attack power with damage mods.
@Mavado:
Wolfman HAS stated that a regulation penalty for stacking shield extenders could be implemented depending on how the numbers look after 1.4. So if hybrid tanking starts to become a problem, there is already a caveat in the works. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
96
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Posted - 2013.08.16 14:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
While I do agree that some of the role bonuses don't make sense (shield recharge for Gal Assault being the primary offender), I don't think there needs to be a change in the way plates or extenders work. A percentage based plate/extender system that would give medium frames decent HP would be incredibly OP for heavy frames.
Some maths - a full Lvl 5 Minmatar Assault with 4x Complex Shield Extenders gets 467 Shields, of which 175 HP is base HP. To convert this to a percentage increase would be around 42% of the base shields per extender. On a heavy, the base HP for the Amarr Heavy Frame ak.0 is 506 HP and it has two high slots - so each extender would grand 213 HP shields, for 931 HP in total shields. |
Bad Heal
ROGUE SPADES
EoN.
62
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Posted - 2013.08.16 14:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
No thank you. You had stated that this % thing would make "armor actually good"...
I have a question for you, what about repair rates? |
Bendtner92
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
876
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Posted - 2013.08.16 15:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mavado, I don't agree with this, at all.
You want to change extenders and plates to give percentages, and with that stacking penalties as well, I assume? Since everything that gives percentages have stacking penalties.
All this would do is to make dualtanking the only option, since stacking more than 2 or 3 at most of either one would be pointless.
I don't know why you want to take away options either. Is there anything wrong with dualtanking in some cases? Minmatar and Amarr are supposed to be able to at least somewhat dualtank if they choose to (from what I understand anyway). Their slot layouts support this as well. Caldari and Gallente should, in most cases, be better off not dualtanking, but rather shield + regulator/speed tank for Caldari and armor + damage tank for Gallente.
You have a point about the Caldari Logi, and I don't think it should have 4 low slots. It's supposed to mirror the Gallente Logi in regards to slot layout, so I support taking away the fourth low slot on the Caldari Logi (it still needs it's recently taken away CPU back though).
Edit: I also think that shield and armor are going to be fairly balanced with the new armor numbers (reactive and ferroscale plates still need way lower fitting requirements though), and like I said, you just need to remove the fourth low slot on the Caldari Logi to prevent it from dualtanking too much. |
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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
97
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Posted - 2013.08.16 15:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
If a Cal Logi wants to dual tank for max buffer, it needs two low slots for fitting modules, meaning it becomes a 5/2 suit. Dual tanking this way results in tank with high buffer but extremely poor regen, hence it is an easy kill once its shields are gone. Scrambler/Locus combo anyone?
Personally I don't think dual tanking is really a valid option for Caldari Logis, simply because you sacrifice too much in regen. Even if you built your tank keeping regen in mind (i.e. 4 extenders and an energizer, 1 plate and 1 repper) your tank capacity would be around 500ish shield, 260ish armor, and that armor tank doesn't seem like enough buffer to be very effective.
In terms of slot layout changes, I would support removing a low slot if it means Cal Logis gain an equipment slot (thus mirroring Gallente Logis) and regain their former CPU. Otherwise you are just picking on Cal Logi because the suit was OP due to the former racial bonus.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1488
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Posted - 2013.08.16 16:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Agreed that role bonuses need to be refined and added once the tech limits are overcome.
Not sure what reason there is to block duel tanking and take choices out of the players hands. In EVE (yes IGÇÖm going to make an EVE Dust comparison) there are mods with raw values not just % but it is largely viewed as a poor idea to duel tank simply because there is actual slot competition and the resistance paradigm native to each ship gives incentive to focus there. Dust currently lacks both of these elements (mods are heavily balanced towards the lows and weapon efficiency is purely based on the weapon type with no native suit aspects included).
Mods within both the shield and armor line should be balance against each other regardless and can be addressed in the present context, making them % values could actually cause more trouble as the armor mods would require a higher % value at every level to compensate for the speed debuff
It also seems premature to me to be calling for such a drastic change with other armor changes and a change to the damage profile of explosive weapons both still in the pipe. LetGÇÖs see what those effects are before calling for a resource intensive complete overhaul of the system.
0.02 ISK
Cross. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
EoN.
1666
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Posted - 2013.08.16 16:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Easier way to do this.
Light, medium, and heavy basic frame suits should get a % bonus to shield and armor modules that is percentaged based to make them more or less effective based on the frame and racial.
This basic frame modifier would affect all variants of the frame size, i.e. medium frames affect assault and logis as well.
For example:
Caldari light gets 3% per level on extenders
Caldari medium gets 5% per level on extenders
Caldari heavy gets 9% per level on extenders
Gallente gets similar on armor
Amarr light gets 2% on both
Amarr medium gets 3% on both
Amarr heavy gets 5% on both.
Mins i think should get something unique.. Maybe biotics bonus combined with higher base stats.
We can rebalance either weapon damage or module numbers to compensate. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
2531
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Posted - 2013.08.16 17:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think a more elegant solution would be to incentivise using the slots for other things, i.e. utility modules, rather than using them for a second tank.
Perhaps a way to achieve this would be to tweak the fitting resources a bit - If tank modules used lots of powergrid and not much CPU and utility modules used lots of CPU and not much powergrid you wouldn't be able to fit a dual tank because of powergrid concerns, for example.
Your solution would have some desired effects, but it would have undesirable ones as well - scouts would be screwed over even more thoroughly.
EDIT: Alternatively if proper bonuses were used then that would help. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
621
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 17:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think this is a Overly Complicated way to fix something that isn't Broken.
The Curretn System works just fine, and all suits benefit equally from it.
This system would royally Screw Scouts for not having a ton of HP, and would be a Buff to both the Amarr Race in general, and the Heavy Class.
Currently, Heavies are fine, along with the Amarr, but Scouts are going to be Dying following 1.4.
Scouts Need a Buff. This would be a Indirect Nerf.
And if your Replace the Bonuses so they gain more from Tanking Mods, then It is Virtually the Same as the Current system.
Like Arkena Said, make Tanking Mods hard to fit, so people don't just dual tank with no afterthought. |
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