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lrian Locust
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2013.08.14 13:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
I find skill tree SP multipliers don't make sense and makes skilling more difficult than it needs to be. The disadvantages:
a) Upgrades that don't DO anything. It's frustrating to gain a massive amount of SP, sink it in e.g. a lvl 4 dropsuit skill and don't get anything to show for it.
b) Unneeded calculations. Suppose I want to upgrade my dropsuit from lvl 3 to 5. I know how much SP I need to go to lvl 4, but as that has no benefits, it doesn't mean anything. I want to know how much SP I need before I reach the next advantage, which would be (lvl4SP x (1+lvl multiplier))
c) Less balancing opportunities. PPC can easily in-/decrease a weapon's price, CPU or PG cost, to balance OP or UP items or boost underused roles. With high-level skills there's no such opportunity, as e.g. changing a 4x multiplier to a 5x multiplier would make a massive 20% change, perhaps greater than needed.
d) Illogical skilling. I don't know where the skill multiplier system comes from (is it the same in EVE?), but it would be unlikely to see such a cost system in real life or in real markets.
Here's a solution:
I) Get rid of the 'empty' lvl 2 and lvl 4 SP sinks. Combine the lvl 2&3 and 4&5 SP costs, to make costs more transparent.
II) Give back SP to those mercs that already specced into these, without having reached the next lvl.
III) Show the real SP cost, instead of a formula (e.g. SP cost = 100.000, instead of SP="lvl1+(lvl1x5^5)"
I suppose this wouldn't be a big effort on CCP's side, and make the skilling process less daunting for newbies and vets alike.
Not a priority fix, I imagine, but perhaps something for the next respec?
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Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1559
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Posted - 2013.08.14 14:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
I don't agree with your solution but I do think that the skill tree needs some work.
J-Lewis has a thread with some very interesting solutions. The tl:dr is to make the skill tree less of an SP sink without removing the value of having SP.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97202&find=unread |
lrian Locust
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hi Iskandar,
Thanks for your input and the interesting read! There's plenty of good comments around. I hope CCP will be able to put them to good use! |
Hecarim Van Hohen
Bullet Cluster
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
lrian Locust wrote:II) Give back SP to those mercs that already specced into these, without having reached the next lvl.
Didn't look into it and decided to spend those hard earned SP's anyway? Tough luck and maybe you learned to think before spending the said SP
lrian Locust wrote: Not a priority fix, I imagine, but perhaps something for the next respec?
wtf.... There is not going to be another respec barring something catastrophic happens, it has been mentioned before that the decisions you make SP wise are going to be permanent and no amount of crying, begging, threatening is going to change that fact.
Partial respecs might come when the rest of the suits are deployed but that's a long time to the future. |
lrian Locust
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hecarim Van Hohen wrote:Didn't look into it and decided to spend those hard earned SP's anyway? Tough luck and maybe you learned to think before spending the said SP
If CCP would take away people's hard-earned skills, wothout giving back the SP, there would be a public outcry. That has nothing to do with making wrong decisions, just compensating for lost SP. |
Cyrille Fodeux
DUST University
Ivy League
57
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Posted - 2013.08.14 17:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Let me say it like this: No
Some skills give better benefits and thus have to require more SP.
If you-Śre too stupid to get this GTFO of here and play CoD. |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
68
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Posted - 2013.08.14 17:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
They should reduce the amount of sp needed to get into skills. Yeah, that increases the amount of proto going into pub matches. But new players will get into competitive gear much faster. I did calculations that I don't want to repeat all over, but the sp generation in Dust is close to what it is in EVE, but the skills are far more expensive. They should be in line with eve. a lvl 1 skill in eve cost 250 sp. in Dust, is 6220. Ridiculous. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
League of Infamy
485
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
I have major issues with your suggestion but the largest one is that if CCP followed all of your ideas we would be able to completely skill into everything much too quickly. During earlier builds, where there was no sp cap and we were earning 3x the sp per match people were able to fully skill into a specialization (read assault, logi, ect...) in a matter of weeks, given 3 months they would have maxed out every single skill.
Now some might say that this sounds great, we should all be able to use every piece of proto gear out there. The problem with this mentality is that working towards being able to access a piece of equipment is one of the major motivators for players. Additionally part of the fun of battles in DUST is that every player works within their chosen specialization to complete the task at hand. This diverse set of specialized approaches brings character to each match, character that would sorely be lacking if everyone could use every piece of equipment. During the afore mentioned earlier builds I was often calling for a reduction of the skilling speed for just these reasons.
One final note about this is that CCP is intending to add enough content to this game that it takes 10+ years to skill into, shortening that skilling timeline, and removing the need to specialize would ruin the longevity of the game. Remember, skilling into something is a major driving factor for the player base. Games become boring once you can do everything and prestige levels are only a motivation for a small number of people.
CCP has gotten it just about right in its current iteration, don't push them to mess it up just because you didn't see the issues that were developing previously.
As far as your complaint about the useless skill levels goes I previously proposed that CCP fix this problem by simply adding bonuses to every skill. This would make every skill level useful without unnecessarily speeding up the skill tree (which is game breaking as I previously mentioned). |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
League of Infamy
485
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:They should reduce the amount of sp needed to get into skills. Yeah, that increases the amount of proto going into pub matches. But new players will get into competitive gear much faster. I did calculations that I don't want to repeat all over, but the sp generation in Dust is close to what it is in EVE, but the skills are far more expensive. They should be in line with eve. a lvl 1 skill in eve cost 250 sp. in Dust, is 6220. Ridiculous.
There are also far fewer skills in Dust than there are in EVE. The SP requirements are to keep players invested for long periods of time. Lowering that bar would reduce their reason to play. You'd be taking away that "gotta get the next level" syndrome which we all suffer from. |
lrian Locust
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cyrille Fodeux wrote:Some skills give better benefits and thus have to require more SP.
If you-Śre too stupid to get this GTFO of here and play CoD.
Lowering SP requirements isn't needed. Nor did I write anything about lowering SP requirements. Did you read the initial post?
Now who's too stupid again? |
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lrian Locust
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2013.08.14 18:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:I have major issues with your suggestion but the largest one is that if CCP followed all of your ideas we would be able to completely skill into everything much too quickly.
Why? The SP needed to skill wouldn't change at all. I only suggest to make it more readable.
Mobius Kaethis wrote:As far as your complaint about the useless skill levels goes I previously proposed that CCP fix this problem by simply adding bonuses to every skill. This would make every skill level useful without unnecessarily speeding up the skill tree (which is game breaking as I previously mentioned).
I agree that adding a benefit to each skill would be a great fix, but that would be hard to implement for dropsuits. What would the benefit be for skilling into a lvl2 or lvl4 dropsuit?
Speeding up the skill tree is not an issue, because that won't happen with this improvement. All SP costs will stay exactly the same.
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lrian Locust
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2013.08.14 18:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:[quote=Alena Ventrallis]There are also far fewer skills in Dust than there are in EVE. The SP requirements are to keep players invested for long periods of time. Lowering that bar would reduce their reason to play. You'd be taking away that "gotta get the next level" syndrome which we all suffer from.
I agree. To reduce the grind, give us more skills, customization or whatever to play with. We don't need to go all WoW about it, but it would make the grind more bearable. I'm sure that will happen over time, though. If I'd be CCP, I wouldn't make it a priority right now. |
low genius
the sound of freedom
Renegade Alliance
292
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
terrible idea. that is all. |
lrian Locust
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
low genius wrote:terrible idea. that is all.
Why? Please note, the amount of SP that needs to be put into each skill will stay exactly the same as it is right now. It's a usability change only, making the SP cost more transparent and getting rid of 'upgrades' that don't provide any benefits or changes at all.
Thanks for your feedback! |
Hecarim Van Hohen
Bullet Cluster
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 19:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
lrian Locust wrote:Hecarim Van Hohen wrote:Didn't look into it and decided to spend those hard earned SP's anyway? Tough luck and maybe you learned to think before spending the said SP If CCP would take away people's hard-earned skills, without giving back the SP, there would be a public outcry. That has nothing to do with making wrong decisions, just compensating for lost SP.
When did this happen? Skill wipes happened during beta and as far as I know none have happened after game launched.
But, if you are implying that you have suffered from some nonsensical injustice, I almost feel your pain and would advice you to read into the skill/suit/etc and think about it for a moment before speccing into it as I did before going Amarr logi.
And, if CCP would take my SP (only 11mil) away, I would QQ sure but then again, as far as I know they have the right to do that as per EULA :D |
Tal-Rakken
DUST University
Ivy League
57
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 19:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
At this time there are some skills that are completely useless past level 3 I see them eventually being used to unlock items/suits/vehicles that have not yet been released. If you put skill points into them willy nilly well... There's a reason you need to take time when skilling up your toon. As for removing the skill training multipliers no that should not be done havein some skills take longer to train is part of the balance equation and an integral part of tactically training skills. |
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