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Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
435
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Posted - 2013.08.14 04:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
That the only real thing needed to balance AV and Vehicles is simply to REMOVE AV grenades?
Yes, forge guns and swarm launchers tear vehicles apart to but you know what? People have specced into them to be AV troops, they take those weapons with the perks and disadvantages they bring and thats fair enough. But why should people who put points in actual AV weapons be robbed of their niche because people are able to take Grenades that wor just as well if not better? With AV grenades in the game why should people specc into AV weapons when they can take any other gun and simply carry grenades with them? AV Grenades don't only nerf vehicles but they also nerf other AV methods.
Before people go on saying "oh but you have to get close for AV grenades" oh cos it's so hard isn't it princess? to jump into a buggy, hell use a murder taxi, barge your way through the tanks infrantry support, get in close before hoping out and taking out the tank in 2-3 grenades? Why should someone who made the active decision not to take an AV primary weapon be allowed to to do the job of dedicated AV soldiers?
Whats that? "how can I defend myself from murder taxi's then?" Funnily enough AV doesn't just apply to tanks, if AV troops felt that they was actually needed they would use their AV fits more if not for the whole match even. Hard to murder taxi when the enemy team has a full squad of AV specced people who are doing nothing the whole match except aiming for enemy vehicles.
By taking AV grenades as a precaution your shooting yourself in the foot, while your busy gunning at infantry those taxi's are coming for you while your busy with your main objective for your fitting.
Of course all this would mean that teams are actually...wait for it...A TEAM!? rather than 16 solo guys who occasionally band together to get orbital support. Yes, if you take a forge gun, swarm launcher or Plasma cannon your infantry killing power is reduced, and your vunerable in combat, but thats where foot soldiers come in, they support the AV infranty by keeping the foot soldiers of their backs and in return the AV soldiers keep the vehicles off the foot soldiers backs.
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Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
435
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 04:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:I don't want any AV removed, but i would like it skilled in as a role or speciality, not just an every day, every man option.
I understand the hesitance, but AV grenades nerf many roles all in one go |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
435
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 05:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kane Fyea wrote:Sorry but I didn't read the thread BUT most of the vehicles users complaints are about proto AV in general because they don't have proto vehicles. Sorry if you already covered this but don't have the time to read through it.
I'll give you the jist for your benefit and for those who CBA with reading text walls.
AV grenades are bad and game breaking, other AV methods are fine. At least in my opinion as a Vehicle specc |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
435
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 05:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Drevenger wrote:No, you're not right at all. Unless you want this to be World of tank 514.
Most of tanker wanna go from 17-0 or 23-2 to 43-0 roaming the city 5 meters from supply depot. I don't see how HAV could have an even bigger impact on the battlefield. If you dont have the ISK then get good.
Cleary then you under estimate Swarm Launchers ect, but then again not like you ever get the chance to see them prove you wrong since people barely ever take them anymore since theres no point, yes indeed there would be more tanks, but that just means more fun for AV troops |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
435
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 05:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Coleman Gray wrote:Sgt Buttscratch wrote:I don't want any AV removed, but i would like it skilled in as a role or speciality, not just an every day, every man option. I understand the hesitance, but AV grenades nerf many roles all in one go Which is what I said, rather than remove them, make them role specific, 1 Light,1 secondary , 2 nade slots, 2 equipment slots. I kinda see them as a sabatour of demolitions style role, ability to run swarmers, 2 different nades(2 AV or maybe 1 flux 1 AV). the equpments(nanohive and proximities[these need a buff CCP] the high lows decided by rank.
ah so mix and match the grenades your fittings take...interesting I like the sound of that
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Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
435
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 05:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Flux Raeder wrote:Coleman Gray wrote:That the only real thing needed to balance AV and Vehicles is simply to REMOVE AV grenades?
Yes, forge guns and swarm launchers tear vehicles apart to but you know what? People have specced into them to be AV troops, they take those weapons with the perks and disadvantages they bring and thats fair enough. But why should people who put points in actual AV weapons be robbed of their niche because people are able to take Grenades that wor just as well if not better? With AV grenades in the game why should people specc into AV weapons when they can take any other gun and simply carry grenades with them? AV Grenades don't only nerf vehicles but they also nerf other AV methods.
Before people go on saying "oh but you have to get close for AV grenades" oh cos it's so hard isn't it princess? to jump into a buggy, hell use a murder taxi, barge your way through the tanks infrantry support, get in close before hoping out and taking out the tank in 2-3 grenades? Why should someone who made the active decision not to take an AV primary weapon be allowed to to do the job of dedicated AV soldiers?
Whats that? "how can I defend myself from murder taxi's then?" Funnily enough AV doesn't just apply to tanks, if AV troops felt that they was actually needed they would use their AV fits more if not for the whole match even. Hard to murder taxi when the enemy team has a full squad of AV specced people who are doing nothing the whole match except aiming for enemy vehicles.
By taking AV grenades as a precaution your shooting yourself in the foot, while your busy gunning at infantry those taxi's are coming for you while your busy with your main objective for your fitting.
Of course all this would mean that teams are actually...wait for it...A TEAM!? rather than 16 solo guys who occasionally band together to get orbital support. Yes, if you take a forge gun, swarm launcher or Plasma cannon your infantry killing power is reduced, and your vunerable in combat, but thats where foot soldiers come in, they support the AV infranty by keeping the foot soldiers of their backs and in return the AV soldiers keep the vehicles off the foot soldiers backs.
The biggest argument against this is that you should not have to put all your sp into av just to make a dent in the constant stream of tanks and LAVs. If anything the drivers should get better or spec more of their sp into their vehicles, a standard av 'nade shouldn't worry you if you invested wisely. The nerf calls for this game are already pretty ridiculous, everyone just wants THEIR fit to be all-powerful.
But thats the game..you pick your role and stick to it |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
436
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 05:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:AV nades are OP, But removing them would make tanks OP. So make them Only carry one. Have a reduced damage version that can carry two. Now at least itll take more than one person to pop a tank, as it should be.
But the argument people have is that ADV and Proto AV weapons rip tanks apart because theres only standard vehicles, so why would the removal of AV grenades make Tanks OP? trying not to sound sarcastic with text either. From an infranrty point of view tell me in what way is it fair that people don't even need to specc specifically into AV to be able to take out vehicles? |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
436
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 05:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Flux Raeder wrote:Coleman Gray wrote:Flux Raeder wrote:Coleman Gray wrote:That the only real thing needed to balance AV and Vehicles is simply to REMOVE AV grenades?
Yes, forge guns and swarm launchers tear vehicles apart to but you know what? People have specced into them to be AV troops, they take those weapons with the perks and disadvantages they bring and thats fair enough. But why should people who put points in actual AV weapons be robbed of their niche because people are able to take Grenades that wor just as well if not better? With AV grenades in the game why should people specc into AV weapons when they can take any other gun and simply carry grenades with them? AV Grenades don't only nerf vehicles but they also nerf other AV methods.
Before people go on saying "oh but you have to get close for AV grenades" oh cos it's so hard isn't it princess? to jump into a buggy, hell use a murder taxi, barge your way through the tanks infrantry support, get in close before hoping out and taking out the tank in 2-3 grenades? Why should someone who made the active decision not to take an AV primary weapon be allowed to to do the job of dedicated AV soldiers?
Whats that? "how can I defend myself from murder taxi's then?" Funnily enough AV doesn't just apply to tanks, if AV troops felt that they was actually needed they would use their AV fits more if not for the whole match even. Hard to murder taxi when the enemy team has a full squad of AV specced people who are doing nothing the whole match except aiming for enemy vehicles.
By taking AV grenades as a precaution your shooting yourself in the foot, while your busy gunning at infantry those taxi's are coming for you while your busy with your main objective for your fitting.
Of course all this would mean that teams are actually...wait for it...A TEAM!? rather than 16 solo guys who occasionally band together to get orbital support. Yes, if you take a forge gun, swarm launcher or Plasma cannon your infantry killing power is reduced, and your vunerable in combat, but thats where foot soldiers come in, they support the AV infranty by keeping the foot soldiers of their backs and in return the AV soldiers keep the vehicles off the foot soldiers backs.
The biggest argument against this is that you should not have to put all your sp into av just to make a dent in the constant stream of tanks and LAVs. If anything the drivers should get better or spec more of their sp into their vehicles, a standard av 'nade shouldn't worry you if you invested wisely. The nerf calls for this game are already pretty ridiculous, everyone just wants THEIR fit to be all-powerful. But thats the game..you pick your role and stick to it I understand the concept of the game, that doesn't have much to do with this situation though, CCP seems to strive for realism and is at least trying to balance the gameplay, there is no logical or gameplay-improving reason for it to take 5 people to take down a single tank. If a tank becomes so powerful that it takes half a team to hurt it then be careful what you are wishing for because they WILL have to balance it again by making it several mil isk each for low level tanks
I'm not asking for a tank buff or an AV weapon nerf. I'm asking that AV roles actually be worth while taking. Why should people take for the obvious example swarm launchers as a weapon choice, have next to no ability to defend themselves in a firefight when they can take a shotgun and AV grenades and have their cake and eat it to? |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
436
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 06:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Flux Raeder wrote:
I'm not asking for a tank buff or an AV weapon nerf. I'm asking that AV roles actually be worth while taking. Why should people take for the obvious example swarm launchers as a weapon choice, have next to no ability to defend themselves in a firefight when they can take a shotgun and AV grenades and have their cake and eat it to?
That's reasonable to an extent, however to me it sounds like a better solution would be to add more benefits to the role rather than eliminating another role by removing an item. Maybe a spotting bonus? Or how about this, if a friendly is locked onto a tai you have a much quicker lock-on time and a kill gives the spotter a worthwhile amount of pts? I'm sure many people can think of much better returns for the role, that's just the first off the top of my head.[/quote]
A sound response and idea, but what is the role of AV grenades? Grenadier skill already gives people great anti-personel weapons without needing to give people a "safety net" against vehicles.
Edit* wow this conversation has got to the point where I need to remove some of the qoutes lol |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
436
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 06:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nemo Bluntz wrote:Coleman Gray wrote:From an infranrty point of view tell me in what way is it fair that people don't even need to specc specifically into AV to be able to take out vehicles? Because by specing into, and using your AV nades over Flux or Locust, you're making a more middle of the road character. Infantry wielding anti-infantry nades in an infantry fight have a huge advantage. Hell, I've recently stopped using AV nades because they weren't cutting it for me, and started using Locust and my K/D is skyrocketing. The inability to zone out oncoming attackers when you need to back off combined with the combat fluffing ability is huuuuuuuuuge. While running AV? I would get an MLT LAV here and there, I'd scar a taxi off, maybe help finish off a tank. Nothing really significant. They were good to have when needed for sure, but to compare them to Forge Guns or Swarms in effectiveness is silly. Nades are probably used more since everyone is trying to be 'the jack of all trades', but they're not crazy OP. Unless you're running a Soma or something.
A Lai Dai packed Grenade deals a base of 1764 damage un modified. A Wiyrkomi Swarm launcher deals 330 per missile unmodified so with all 6 missiles it does 1980 damage unmodified assuming all 6 land a hit. An Ishukone AFG does 1663.2 damage unmodified.
By taking a swarm launcher you lose a primary weapon for killing infantry, By taking the forge gun you can still kill infantry but not as easily as a HMG or AR or Scrambler rifle only to be dealing the same damage as that grenade. Where as if your using a Lai Dai packed Grenade you can still take a primary weapon for fire fights meaning you don't lose as much combat effectivness as other AV weapon choices. Fair enough, you have to get MUCH closer to the target with those grenades but you haven't sacrificed anywhere near as much as other AV weapon choices still.
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Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
436
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 06:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
funny...thats what the last mentality challenged guy said when asked can people take his crutch away |
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