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trollface dot jpg
The Bacon Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 07:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everyone, your favorite Chromosome poster you love to hate is back with more facts and ideas that will infuriate the masses! That's right, after a long hiatus, trollface has returned to bring the pain to Uprising! Infamous for such things as suggesting a freeze on all SP boosters until the player market opens and daring to suggest that a maxed infantry class required more SP than a tank class back in Chromosome, I am back for more! Hero to no one, uber unknown to most and despised by those that do, after a long vacation I have returned to deliver yet another open handed slap of upsetting ideas to the Dust masses! So, without further ado, ON WITH THE SHOW!
People hate proto bears in pub matches. Proto bears hate people hating on them for running their best gear, which they worked long and hard for, in any game mode they choose. After all, PC battles are few and far between for most people. Now then, the way to fix the issue is to find some way to keep higher end gear from being run in pub matches, at least for the most part. There is a fairly simple fix for this, but it comes in three parts. One is simple, another has been done before and needs to happen again, and the last one will require a fair amount of dev work:
The simple first step is to increase the price of everything above basic tier. Increase the price of everything STD tier by 1.2, ADV tier by 1.5x and everything PRO tier by 2.0x. This will make losing higher level gear sufficiently restrictive and also giving people very good reason not to run them regardless of how much money they have. Sure, some people will stockpile their gear and run them anyway with their vast stores of money, and others will save up and run them when they get the chance, and still yet others are good enough that they can go a several games without dying and save enough to make up for the few matches where they loose 1 or 2 suits. However this will help sap off the overflowing amount of money many of the proto bears have stored up by pub stomping, eventually balancing out the number you see on the field. Every suit they loose will take them several matches worth of money to replace, making proto suits a rare and valuable asset rather than a common sight like we see today.
*As an amendment to this first step, vehicles have been largely gypped on tiers, so this cannot be applied to them directly. Therefore vehicle modules/weapons prices increased by 1.3x for ADV and by 1.6x for PRO to balance for the increase to AV prices.
*In addition, increase the ISK payouts in PC by 3.0x to make running high end gear in PC more in order to protect assets more manageable.
The second step is a little more involved than simply changing the cost of items in the marketplace, but is just as important. Remove all ISK items purchased and refund all the ISK spent on them. This will give everyone a chance to stockpile what they want, but those stockpiles probably won't last TOO long. This is because of my last step.....
Step 3, puttin' dem devs to work. Give WP based on the meta level of the enemy or vehicle destroyed. Start with a meta lvl 0 (straight militia gear) infantry kill rewarding the base 50 WP. For every 5 meta levels above 0 award an additional 10 WP. People will then be awarded more for killing higher threat targets as well as earning more points towards an OB which can wipe out whole groups of them. Wearing high level gear or running high end vehicles then balances itself out by being great but also having drawbacks for using it apart from the risk of loosing it.
Greater power at the cost of much greater risk, that will even out the Dust economy gradually over time and resolve the issue of matches overburdened by high end gear. And yes, this means many people will be more inclined to buy AUR gear. Which is good. CCP get's paid and we get the satisfaction of taking other peoples real life money. Then we'd only need CCP to give us a stat that tracks how much AUR we've cost people over the course of our Dust career
RELEASE THE PROTO-HOUNDS! |
Heimdallr69
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
511
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 07:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wtf I ain't reading all that..man next time some it up |
XiBravo
TeamPlayers EoN.
150
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:Wtf I ain't reading all that..man next time some it up
Sum* |
trollface dot jpg
The Bacon Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:Wtf I ain't reading all that..man next time some it up Sorry, was adding the TL;DR in an edit, fixed for ya |
Nemo Bluntz
TeamPlayers EoN.
268
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Part of this post ignores just how much ISK some people have acquired. I know people who will, no matter how much they spend, never have money issues in this game ever again.
I'm actually not against giving WP based off the of the meta level of the suit/vehicle killed. I really don't think mowing down militia gear should give me the same benefits of taking on a proto squad. Its a cool idea, but man, it would take some coding that I'm sure CCP would **** up one way or another. |
xSaloLx
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
124
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Meh, no to #1, no to #2, but I do like #3.
Why do we want to discourage people from using proto gear? It seams to defeat the purpose of all this training we're doing if we can't even (profitably) use the good stuff.
I'd prefer lowering the price of proto stuff so everyone can affordably (more or less) use it. That way, when everyone's proto, no one will be.
But honestly, I'm in favor of trashing the tiering system and switching to the speciality system another thread was talking about. |
trollface dot jpg
The Bacon Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nemo Bluntz wrote:Part of this post ignores just how much ISK some people have acquired. I know people who will, no matter how much they spend, never have money issues in this game ever again. I'm actually not against giving WP based off the of the meta level of the suit/vehicle killed. I really don't think mowing down militia gear should give me the same benefits of taking on a proto squad. Its a cool idea, but man, it would take some coding that I'm sure CCP would **** up one way or another.
I'm aware that there are those who are at or slightly above billionaire status. But there is no fixing that short of a reset, and the few people who actually have that much ISK won't make nearly as big an impact as the massive number of people who are able to afford to run proto all day every day do right now. Also the longer this goes on, the further away balancing the Dust AI market market gets, which means the further away the player market gets.
No single fix will solve every issue, but this would go a long way towards dwindling down the massive sums of ISK and stockpiled gear in the dust community. This will allow for eventual pub match balance, at least for the most part. Balancing an economy isn't easy, especially with as long as this one has been out of balance, but something has to be done or it's only going to get worse. |
trollface dot jpg
The Bacon Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
xSaloLx wrote:Meh, no to #1, no to #2, but I do like #3. Why do we want to discourage people from using proto gear? It seams to defeat the purpose of all this training we're doing if we can't even (profitably) use the good stuff. I'd prefer lowering the price of proto stuff so everyone can affordably (more or less) use it. That way, when everyone's proto, no one will be.But honestly, I'm in favor of trashing the tiering system and switching to the speciality system another thread was talking about. I've been playing Dust for over a year now, and the core idea of Dust, and Eve in general, is all about risk and reward. You risk something valuable in hopes that your skill with it yields you a better reward. It's not supposed to be profitable for everyone to run the best gear at all times, you might as well make everything free and remove currency altogether.
This game has always been about the choice: Do I run cheap stuff and risk dying a lot? Or do I run my expensive stuff and risk loosing my hard earned money? That's what makes this game special when compared to the majority of shooters out there, risk and reward above and beyond the almighty K/D stat. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
552
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote:This game has always been about the choice: Do I run cheap stuff and risk dying a lot? Or do I run my expensive stuff and risk loosing my hard earned money? That's what makes this game special when compared to the majority of shooters out there, risk and reward above and beyond the almighty K/D stat. QFT |
Heimdallr69
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
511
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
XiBravo wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:Wtf I ain't reading all that..man next time some it up Sum* Im not to worried about it.. |
|
trollface dot jpg
The Bacon Corporation
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 09:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:XiBravo wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:Wtf I ain't reading all that..man next time some it up Sum* Im not to worried about it.. I don't get it...
edit: lol, nm, I see the spell check police in action |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
908
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 10:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
So what you suggesting is Capitalism at its full glory ...
- The rich gets richer and richer. - The poor gets **** in daily basics by Capitalist Pigs.
Hurray !!
If anything i'll say Proto equipment should be more affordable for casual players.. make it easy to run Proto for everyone. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1050
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 11:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote:(TL;DR added to the bottom of the post)Hello everyone, your favorite Chromosome poster you love to hate is back with more facts and ideas that will infuriate the masses! That's right, after a long hiatus, trollface has returned to bring the pain to Uprising! Infamous for such things as suggesting a freeze on all SP boosters until the player market opens and daring to suggest that a maxed infantry class required more SP than a tank class back in Chromosome, I am back for more! Hero to no one, uber unknown to most and despised by those that do, after a long vacation I have returned to deliver yet another open handed slap of upsetting ideas to the Dust masses! So, without further ado, ON WITH THE SHOW! People hate proto bears in pub matches. Proto bears hate people hating on them for running their best gear, which they worked long and hard for, in any game mode they choose. After all, PC battles are few and far between for most people. Now then, the way to fix the issue is to find some way to keep higher end gear from being run in pub matches, at least for the most part. There is a fairly simple fix for this, but it comes in three parts. One is simple, another has been done before and needs to happen again, and the last one will require a fair amount of dev work: The simple first step is to increase the price of everything above MLT tier. Increase the price of everything STD tier by 1.2, ADV tier by 1.5x and everything PRO tier by 2.0x. This will make losing higher level gear sufficiently restrictive and also give people very good reason not to run it regardless of how much money they have. Sure, some people will stockpile their gear and run them anyway with their vast stores of money, and others will save up and run them when they get the chance, and still yet others are good enough that they can go a several games without dying and save enough to make up for the few matches where they loose 1 or 2 suits. However this will help sap off the overflowing amount of money many of the proto bears have stored up by pub stomping, eventually balancing out the number you see on the field. Every suit they loose will take them several matches worth of money to replace, making proto suits a rare and valuable asset rather than a common sight like we see today. *As an amendment to this first step, vehicles have been largely gypped on tiers, so this cannot be applied to them directly. Therefore vehicle modules/weapons prices increased by 1.3x for ADV and by 1.6x for PRO to balance for the increase to AV prices. *In addition, increase the ISK payouts in PC by 3.0x to make running high end gear in PC in order to protect assets more manageable. The second step is a little more involved than simply changing the cost of items in the marketplace, but is just as important. Remove all ISK items purchased and refund all the ISK spent on them. This will give everyone a chance to stockpile what they want, but those stockpiles probably won't last TOO long. This is because of my last step..... Step 3, puttin' dem devs to work. Give WP based on the meta level of the enemy or vehicle destroyed. Start with a meta lvl 0 (straight militia gear) infantry kill rewarding the base 50 WP. For every 5 meta levels above 0 award an additional 10 WP. People will then be awarded more for killing higher threat targets as well as earning more points towards an OB which can wipe out whole groups of them. Wearing high level gear or running high end vehicles then balances itself out by being great but also having drawbacks for using it apart from the risk of loosing it. Greater power at the cost of much greater risk, that will even out the Dust economy gradually over time and resolve the issue of matches overburdened by high end gear. And yes, this means many people will be more inclined to buy AUR gear. Which is good. CCP get's paid and we get the satisfaction of taking other peoples real life money. Then we'd only need CCP to give us a stat that tracks how much AUR we've cost people over the course of our Dust career RELEASE THE PROTO-HOUNDS!TL;DR:Increase the price of everything, refund all ISK items and take them all away, give WP based on meta lvl of opponent defeated = balance in pub matches
Increasing the price will make proto suits useless actually, and it will make logistics suit non existant. |
xAckie
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
289
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 11:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
if the majority f the player-base dont play PC make proto cheaper - otherwise why will people continue to play the game if they unlock the gear but cant use it |
Vin Mora
Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. Interstellar Conquest Enterprises
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 11:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote:give WP based on meta lvl of opponent defeated = balance in pub matches This is the only part that I agree with.
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
830
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 12:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
But you were wrong that infantry requires more SP than infantry
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
3094
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 12:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Or you just implement Tiericide like in EVE, and remove suit meta levels entirely.
Take out all STD and ADV suits, then balance the PRO ones that remain.
Give them better per-level bonuses so that the suit skill enhances your performance, and you've eliminated the power creep while helping to balance the suits against each other at the same time. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
830
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 13:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Or you just implement Tiericide like in EVE, and remove suit meta levels entirely.
Take out all STD and ADV suits, then balance the PRO ones that remain.
Give them better per-level bonuses so that the suit skill enhances your performance, and you've eliminated the power creep while helping to balance the suits against each other at the same time.
Less suits less choices FOTM fits instead while dumbing down the game |
Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 13:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote: The simple first step is to increase the price of everything above MLT tier. Increase the price of everything STD tier by 1.2, ADV tier by 1.5x and everything PRO tier by 2.0x. This will make losing higher level gear sufficiently restrictive and also give people very good reason not to run it regardless of how much money they have.
Sigh ... when will people realise price =/= balancing mechanism.
They should teircide the suits and then DROP the price of proto gear, that way you're building an FPS game instead of a land based version of Spreadsheets In Space. |
SCAT mania
Seraphim Initiative..
375
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 13:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote: I've been playing Dust for over a year now, and the core idea of Dust, and Eve in general, is all about risk and reward. You risk something valuable in hopes that your skill with it yields you a better reward. It's not supposed to be profitable for everyone to run the best gear at all times, you might as well make everything free and remove currency altogether.
This game has always been about the choice: Do I run cheap stuff and risk dying a lot? Or do I run my expensive stuff and risk loosing my hard earned money? That's what makes this game special when compared to the majority of shooters out there, risk and reward above and beyond the almighty K/D stat.
You cant really make a comparison between dust and eve on how we spend our isk.. not just yet anyway. Eve's Skills set is huge compared to dust. each one increasing the effectiveness of any module, weapon, ship, riggs etc. so in dust to increase my damage i could skill into prof lvl 5 and slap on some damage mods. in eve (eg, for missiles) i could skill into skills like:
Missile Launcher Operation - increases missile launcher rate of fire and makes other skills available Missile Bombardment - increases missile flight time Rapid Launch - increases missile rate of fire Target Navigation Prediction - decreases the effect of the target's speed on damage dealt Missile Projection - increases missile speed Warhead Upgrades - increases missile damage
and then modules like
Ballistic Control System - increases missile launcher rate of fire and missile damage Bay Loading Accelerator - increases missile launcher rate of fire Hydraulic Bay Thrusters - increases missile velocity Rocket Fuel Cache Partition - increases missile flight time Warhead Calefaction Catalyst - increases missile damage
and still use cheap stuff and be effective. so until we get a skill tree like eve i cant see them charging more for our gear as its all we have to use |
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
885
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 14:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think they should increase the payouts across the board.
It's not a person owning proto gear's fault that CCP doesn't have matchmaking.
I'm trying out a totally new suit. I'm running an advanced Min Assault with a shotgun. It's tough to turn a profit even with some blueprint stuff on there as I get used to the shotgun. That's insane to me. I can run advanced gear and run nearly a 2.0 KDR and still hardly turn a profit.
That is silly. |
trollface dot jpg
The Bacon Corporation
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 21:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
There you go making those whiny excuses. I knew this was coming. "But I unlocked it, I should get to use it any time I want!". You guy's have been coddled by other games for so long that you've forgotten what made Dust interesting to start with. There was actual risk v reward back in closed beta, now there's hardly any risk at all.
You CAN use your proto gear anytime you like! But only if you can afford to! You have to manage your finances and levy your risk v reward, and if you think you can afford to run a proto suit then you can do so.
And as for the Capitalism statement, the rich get richer only if they have the skill to not die more than once every 2-3 matches. They'll be able to run proto for a long while, maybe even for as long as they stay in Dust, but they will not be able to maintain their cash heap if they plan to run straight proto. No one can. This drains resources and helps stabilize our economy while at the same time reducing the number of proto suits run in pub matches.
@English Snake: I was only wrong if you count the fact that all the tankers wanted every tank skill to count whereas they only wanted the infantry skills pertaining to the specs I laid out to count for the infantry class. They complained that "tankers NEED to be able to run blasters, missiles AND rails". I could easily say an infantry character NEEDS to run an AV fit and a suppression (MD or HMG) fit too, which would have added far more SP for the infantry class, but I didn't make that argument. It was outside the specs of the example, as was the tankers argument despite the concessions I made for the tankers. Now then, please don't drag the politics of another thread into this one. |
Draka Marintu
TeamPlayers EoN.
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 21:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
The whole argument is flawed I don't understand why people think that proto gear gives players solo much of an advantage inate skills are what matter example if I run an mh82 with hmg profiency maxed against someone else who just unlocked it I'm still gonna melt them I run proto because I choose to and I still make money I can do the same with ADV or std because it's not the gear that matters it's the skills |
Bob Teller
Red Star. EoN.
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 21:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
Price of proto gear have gone down in Uprising and it was a good thing,having players earn more sp for killing adv-proto suits and vehicules would be awesome. |
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