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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2838
   |
Posted - 2013.08.09 14:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yesterday, I had a conversation about vehicles over the LFSquad channel (yes, we spammed the channel and blocked squads from being made). The conversation started about the cost-effectiveness of vehicles, particularly HAVs. Eventually, we got onto the topic of the LLAV fits everyone in the conversation just happened to have.
Then I figured something out from what we talked about-
Almost all of the LLAVs we're seeing on the battlefield aren't used because they're OP; they're used because they're the only cost-effective option left for vehicles.
From the people I've talked to, they started in HAVs this build, which didn't work out well because they "cost 3 times as much as they should". So what did they do? They just put the 37,000 SP into LLAVs because that was the fastest option to a cost-effective fit again.
While it's obvious that this could be completely fixed in 1.5, it gives us insight into other FOTMs. For example, mass drivers used to be barely used outside of area denial. Now they're mostly used in CQC.
What don't we see in CQC anymore? Shotguns.
Shotguns are broken this build, so there's a good chance most of the shotgunners moved to the mass driver. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2844
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Personally I don't see HAVs as something someone should be rolling around in all the time. Driving around in a 1m+ ISK HAV expecting to last 3-4 matches or whatever you need to break even is rather stupid imo, especially in Instant Battles.
To me HAVs, and Dropships as well I guess, are something you use for certain situations and not necessarily entire matches. The current skill tree/system doesn't really allow people to do this, since skilling into HAVs/Dropships means you have no infantry skills, at least until you have max vehicle skills.
If vehicles could be used by everyone we wouldn't have the same problem as people could take turns calling in vehicles and not necessarily use them for entire matches at a time.
I believe that vehicles should be the primary fighting force- the current HAVs should be far cheaper. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2846
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Bendtner92 wrote:Personally I don't see HAVs as something someone should be rolling around in all the time. Driving around in a 1m+ ISK HAV expecting to last 3-4 matches or whatever you need to break even is rather stupid imo, especially in Instant Battles.
To me HAVs, and Dropships as well I guess, are something you use for certain situations and not necessarily entire matches. The current skill tree/system doesn't really allow people to do this, since skilling into HAVs/Dropships means you have no infantry skills, at least until you have max vehicle skills.
If vehicles could be used by everyone we wouldn't have the same problem as people could take turns calling in vehicles and not necessarily use them for entire matches at a time. I believe that vehicles should be the primary fighting force- the current HAVs should be far cheaper. The current ENFORCER should be cheaper, as it is just a **** STD tank with HIGH SP investment needed for almost negative payout. Modules and turrets need to be cheaper, the current carcass' aint that badly priced. Fitting them is where the $$$ is dropped. When 1.5 appears, we'll either see a flop beyond flops, or we'll find a balance between AV and V. Rumor I heard was that 1.5 will bring tank roles, this is something I do not want. I want Amarr and minniemouse tanks added, ADV and PRO tiers added. Enforcers removed and either scraped or re-thought. IMO an enforcer should have higher base stats, and a higher potential. Not bonus' to blaster dmg and range. That should be: 2% Damage increase per level to ALL main turrets. 2% base resistance shield/armor per level.
All HAVs and their modules are too expensive. A decent HAV should cost around 300,000 ISK, instead of upwards of 700,000. This is considering how much ISK they would gain in a battle, and that most HAVs are destroyed once per battle. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2848
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:LLAVs are used because they cannot die.
They can die, but they're very difficult to take down. Basically, they're used because they're far more efficient than HAVs. They get less kills, but they aren't destroyed as easily, and you don't lose as much money if they're destroyed. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2850
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 17:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Oso Peresoso wrote:LLAVs are used because they cannot die. They can die, but they're very difficult to take down. Basically, they're used because they're far more efficient than HAVs. They get less kills, but they aren't destroyed as easily, and you don't lose as much money if they're destroyed. I can get more kills just ****ing around the field in my charby than any match in my tanks with virtually no risk. It's got only slightly less health, almost the same resistance to damage(finish skilling, and it will actually be more!) and enough agility to actually *you might want to sit down for this one* AVOID AV. Le gasp! Shocking I know. So I can either be required to play 4-5X better than everyone else, and still die if there's one half-decent forge on the field. Or I can tool around the field providing hot drops, getting more kills, and pissing off half the enemy team into AV to make them easy pickings for my team.
What HAV are you using? Decent ones have far more eHP than good LLAVs, plus they're more of a threat to competent players. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2861
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 18:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jake Diesel wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Yesterday, I had a conversation about vehicles over the LFSquad channel (yes, we spammed the channel and blocked squads from being made). The conversation started about the cost-effectiveness of vehicles, particularly HAVs. Eventually, we got onto the topic of the LLAV fits everyone in the conversation just happened to have.
Then I figured something out from what we talked about-
Almost all of the LLAVs we're seeing on the battlefield aren't used because they're OP; they're used because they're the only cost-effective option left for vehicles.
From the people I've talked to, they started in HAVs this build, which didn't work out well because they "cost 3 times as much as they should". So what did they do? They just put the 37,000 SP into LLAVs because that was the fastest option to a cost-effective fit again.
While it's obvious that this could be completely fixed in 1.5, it gives us insight into other FOTMs. For example, mass drivers used to be barely used outside of area denial. Now they're mostly used in CQC.
What don't we see in CQC anymore? Shotguns.
Shotguns are broken this build, so there's a good chance most of the shotgunners moved to the mass driver. It surprises me how many people think shotguns are underpowered. I've already encountered several really good shotgunners assaulting groups of AR's and wiping them out in a matter of seconds (each). The last I saw was a guy who went 25-0 and was attacking from mid range. It was a Minmatar build of some sort and he obviously specced his guy for some serious speed. He wasn't popping out from 10 feet away. He was literally charging at us on open ground strafing left and right and quickly closing the gap. That's how fast he moved. And being a medium frame, he had good armor. I'm guessing he maxed his core skills, shields, armor and then maxed suit for speed. So no, shotguns are not underpowered. It's just many have not figured out the right build. I don't use it myself, but I personally love the shotgun. When I'm done maxing my forger I'm gonna build one of these badboys.
I haven't used them since chromosome, but the hit detection is terrible from what I understand. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2862
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 18:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jake Diesel wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Jake Diesel wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Yesterday, I had a conversation about vehicles over the LFSquad channel (yes, we spammed the channel and blocked squads from being made). The conversation started about the cost-effectiveness of vehicles, particularly HAVs. Eventually, we got onto the topic of the LLAV fits everyone in the conversation just happened to have.
Then I figured something out from what we talked about-
Almost all of the LLAVs we're seeing on the battlefield aren't used because they're OP; they're used because they're the only cost-effective option left for vehicles.
From the people I've talked to, they started in HAVs this build, which didn't work out well because they "cost 3 times as much as they should". So what did they do? They just put the 37,000 SP into LLAVs because that was the fastest option to a cost-effective fit again.
While it's obvious that this could be completely fixed in 1.5, it gives us insight into other FOTMs. For example, mass drivers used to be barely used outside of area denial. Now they're mostly used in CQC.
What don't we see in CQC anymore? Shotguns.
Shotguns are broken this build, so there's a good chance most of the shotgunners moved to the mass driver. It surprises me how many people think shotguns are underpowered. I've already encountered several really good shotgunners assaulting groups of AR's and wiping them out in a matter of seconds (each). The last I saw was a guy who went 25-0 and was attacking from mid range. It was a Minmatar build of some sort and he obviously specced his guy for some serious speed. He wasn't popping out from 10 feet away. He was literally charging at us on open ground strafing left and right and quickly closing the gap. That's how fast he moved. And being a medium frame, he had good armor. I'm guessing he maxed his core skills, shields, armor and then maxed suit for speed. So no, shotguns are not underpowered. It's just many have not figured out the right build. I don't use it myself, but I personally love the shotgun. When I'm done maxing my forger I'm gonna build one of these badboys. I haven't used them since chromosome, but the hit detection is terrible from what I understand. Well the guy was definitely not shooting from mid-range. He was just charging at mid-range and closing the gap on his targets. As soon as he was really close, he ran circles around them and shot them to death. I'm guessing he was a mouse and keyboard user to be able to turn and shoot in such tight circular arcs. But he was shooting really close. Probably no more than 9 feet away.
Shotguns have higher damage at close range. Not to mention they're plasma, so the range is very short. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2864
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 19:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
stlcarlos989 wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:All HAVs and their modules are too expensive. A decent HAV should cost around 300,000 ISK, instead of upwards of 700,000. This is considering how much ISK they would gain in a battle, and that most HAVs are destroyed once per battle. You do realize a protologi suit with prototype equipment costs about 250k a suit.
So? |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2869
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 00:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:stlcarlos989 wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:All HAVs and their modules are too expensive. A decent HAV should cost around 300,000 ISK, instead of upwards of 700,000. This is considering how much ISK they would gain in a battle, and that most HAVs are destroyed once per battle. You do realize a protologi suit with prototype equipment costs about 250k a suit. just the frame for a tank(no turrets, no mods.)is 200k. and that a proto small turret goes for around 274k. my small turret costs more than your suit. a "decent" starts at over a million for your proto turret(900+) and the shell alone. then you are required to buy two more turrets, and if you want to last longer than a scrap of paper in the corona of the sun, the best STD level(since that's all we've got right now) mods. then there's the enforcer frame, which is basically worthless, and costs 1.2 million, just on the frame.
I would consider that high-end. "decent" (advanced stuff) is still expensive though. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2869
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 00:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
TEBOW BAGGINS wrote:+1
not only shotgunners but laser got it in the butt as well. they both need a buff.
MD is the only alternative weapon left on the field that's worth a sht making it appear op, but there are no alternatives to the AR that are currently effective so the MD appears OP because there's no other options for those who don't want to run AR, so everyone goes MD making everyone cry nerf it
I tried lasers today, and they're actually pretty good; only problem is that the optimal is way too specific. If they would get higher efficiency at slightly shorter and slightly longer ranges (7-10m in both directions maybe), they would be great. |
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