DUST Search - Forge Guns need a nerf. Not their damage. Prepared for QQ

The Attorney General wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Evidently we need a lesson in warfare.

Everything in warfare is about mission accomplishment. Looking at skirmish, that mission is to capture and hold objectives. The AR gunner is the main effort to accomplish this. He captures the objective, and repels the enemy assault. Everyone else is to make his job easier to do. Vehicles provide infantry suppression, AV denies enemy vehicles the chance to kill him, etc. But the goal of every weapon outside of the AR is to support the assault done by the assault rifle (clever how they named it that way, isn't it?)

Forge guns are to make sure that enemy tanks are unable to attack friendlies as they assault the objective. It doesn't matter if the tank lives or dies. As long as it is unable to shoot at your team.

Now, for gameplay purposes, the forge gun should be balanced so that you can't get to an area where no one can stop you, and you can fire with impunity. Thus, my suggestions.

Try being less of a **** next time.

Although I could support a lowering of splash damage, or radius, the rest of your ideas are without merit.

First, any place that a FG can shoot at a tank from, the tank, if equipped with either a rail or stabilized blaster can shoot right back at them. With a rail gun, a tank has DOUBLE the range of a Forge Gun. That of course discounts the obvious issues the game engine is having with rendering, but to say that nothing can hit the forge gunner is a complete falsehood.

Next, if your team is so foolhardy as to allow a FG to get up top with a logi for ammo and reps, and an uplink in the event he gets popped, then it is partly your own fault. Bases have those railguns for a reason, use them. Also, if eager beaver infantry were not so focused on getting their murder taxis spawned in, maybe the tankers on your team could get their railguns in play soon enough to prevent the enemy from getting up high. Not to mention that getting a properly skilled sniper in a position to keep a heavy away from a ledge is quite simple. The statement that no one can stop a FG up high is baseless provided you are willing to actually think about the problem, instead of just wanting it changed to better suit your playstyle.

All of the preceding ignores the fact that there are in fact many ways to attack a heavy up high, not the least of which is to get their first an prevent them from getting a foothold.


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Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 51	Posted - 2013.08.09 01:38:00 - [1] - Quote I, for one, do not believe the forge guns are the next FOTM. It takes a LOT of sp to get anywhere with them, and it does take accuracy in order to hit anything properly. I'll leave in the splash damage it has, because you know what, I'd expect a giant ball of electricity to mess up a big group of people close together. The problem, I find, is with the range. Being hit from building tops makes it near impossible to escape, and damn impossible to counter, save having a sniper finding a good angle. Now if an enemy sniper gets on a roof and starts popping people, I'm okay with this. He has to have skill to aim, there are ways to hide from him, and more to the point, he can't wreck everything he looks at, just infantry. Forge guns need to have their range toned down. I personally wouldn't touch the damage. Frankly, a standard forge gun doing more damage than a standard compressed rail turret is insane, but I'm willing to compromise with forge gunners on a few points. But being able to hit anything from across the map? And before someone starts going on about how the sight makes it hard to aim, two things. For one, apparently it isn't that bad, because enough forge gunners are spending the match on rooftops sniping infantry with it. Two, considering how the sight is, doesn't that mean it was intended to be a short range weapon? Like on the order of 150m max? Plus I have physics on my side, Electricity cannot remain in a ball for that long anyway, it would dissipate insanely fast. But I know how much the nerf-bat sucks to hit your favorite toy. I have an alt that ran cal logi (used it for actual logi, not wtfpwnmobile) I can understand investing sp in something only to have it gimped. So I'm willing to concede that 150m max range would be a slap in the face for forge gunners. So here's what I propose. 1. Keep the damage as is. Again, I think it's retardedly high, but compromise is give and take. 2. Keep the splash damage and radius. Hell, give one of them a slight buff (not both) for all I care, I would expect a projectile of that size to cause some damage wherever it lands. 3. Reduce range to 250m. This forces forge gunners to engage vehicles where we can fight back, or at the very least escape your fire. Yeah, you will lose out on some kills. But your mission is not to destroy vehicles, but to deny the enemy vehicle assets (although destruction of enemy vehicles is a perfectly valid way to do this.) Your mission is to deny tanks the ability to engage your fellow blueberries, whether that's by blowing them to hell, or forcing them to retreat. Either way, your job has been done; the enemy can no longer rely on that tank as an asset. This range nerf will force you to be in the battle proper to accomplish your mission. Everyone bar snipers has to brave the enemy fire in order to get their kills, you should be no different. The reason snipers deserve a pass at this is a. their weapons can only hurt infantry, not both as yours do. b. they don't have the protections of a heavy suit (regardless of the fact that heavies are gimped by speed, that doesn't matter if your sitting still sniping) and c. they also have the mission of relaying enemy positions to friendlies, something you can't do as forge gunners because you have no zoom. Plus, even if you can't hit everything from the rooftops like you are now, there is still no vehicle that can enage you where you cannot. Sure, a redline tank can outrange you, but you have the opportunity to close the distance and still hit him. As it stands, The only two counters to forge guns on rooves (roofs? Can't remember which is grammatically accurate.) are snipers, which you can siply move back a little to avoid, and dropships, which you can swat down without breaking a sweat. This should not be the case. Get down in the dirt with the rest of us. TL;DR Forge guns keep the massive damage, take a splash radius damage buff or radius buff for all I care (not both, I care a little :P) and reduce the range to stop rooftop forge gunning
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 51	Posted - 2013.08.09 02:34:00 - [2] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Rail guns are supposed to have massive range. This isn't a ball of electricity - It's a physical slug. Besides, you didn't establish WHY this is problem, instead of just being something that you don't like. Rail guns are supposed to deal massive amounts of damage per shot at the cost of ROF at high ranges. The FG is supposed to be a heavy sniper platform. If that's the case, increase the speed of the projectile, reduce splash to .5m to be in line with the small splash of railguns, and increase the charge rate by a significant degree, to bring it in line with the damage it puts out. Personally, I think it being a physical projectile is an error in the description (look at the size of the projectile) plus, as everything wrecks armor, being a ball of electricity would make it good against shields. Of course, vehicle shields are UP right now, but that's a whole separate issue The problem is there is no counter to forge guns. since they can kill both infantry and vehicles. The problem is simply exacerbated if a forge gunner gets on the roof. He is nigh untouchable, for the reasons I described above (he can move out of sight of snipers and keep on shooting, and he downs dropships before they can get to him) Thus I think reducing range to force them off of roofs (rooves, someone please tell me which is right) would at least give someone the ability to counter them. Or, if being a projectile is preferable, either cut the damage they do by half (a handheld weapon out damaging a large turret is ridiculous), or double the charge time (as I can understand it doing more damage than a vehicle turret if it spent more time than a vehicle turret charging up, and charging longer by a significant margin), as accelerating a projectile on a handheld platform would require tremendous amounts of energy to cause the damage it currently does.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 51	Posted - 2013.08.09 13:40:00 - [3] - Quote Evidently we need a lesson in warfare. Everything in warfare is about mission accomplishment. Looking at skirmish, that mission is to capture and hold objectives. The AR gunner is the main effort to accomplish this. He captures the objective, and repels the enemy assault. Everyone else is to make his job easier to do. Vehicles provide infantry suppression, AV denies enemy vehicles the chance to kill him, etc. But the goal of every weapon outside of the AR is to support the assault done by the assault rifle (clever how they named it that way, isn't it?) Forge guns are to make sure that enemy tanks are unable to attack friendlies as they assault the objective. It doesn't matter if the tank lives or dies. As long as it is unable to shoot at your team. Now, for gameplay purposes, the forge gun should be balanced so that you can't get to an area where no one can stop you, and you can fire with impunity. Thus, my suggestions. Try being less of a **** next time.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 53	Posted - 2013.08.09 20:37:00 - [4] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Evidently we need a lesson in warfare. Everything in warfare is about mission accomplishment. Looking at skirmish, that mission is to capture and hold objectives. The AR gunner is the main effort to accomplish this. He captures the objective, and repels the enemy assault. Everyone else is to make his job easier to do. Vehicles provide infantry suppression, AV denies enemy vehicles the chance to kill him, etc. But the goal of every weapon outside of the AR is to support the assault done by the assault rifle (clever how they named it that way, isn't it?) Forge guns are to make sure that enemy tanks are unable to attack friendlies as they assault the objective. It doesn't matter if the tank lives or dies. As long as it is unable to shoot at your team. Now, for gameplay purposes, the forge gun should be balanced so that you can't get to an area where no one can stop you, and you can fire with impunity. Thus, my suggestions. Try being less of a **** next time. Although I could support a lowering of splash damage, or radius, the rest of your ideas are without merit. First, any place that a FG can shoot at a tank from, the tank, if equipped with either a rail or stabilized blaster can shoot right back at them. With a rail gun, a tank has DOUBLE the range of a Forge Gun. That of course discounts the obvious issues the game engine is having with rendering, but to say that nothing can hit the forge gunner is a complete falsehood. Next, if your team is so foolhardy as to allow a FG to get up top with a logi for ammo and reps, and an uplink in the event he gets popped, then it is partly your own fault. Bases have those railguns for a reason, use them. Also, if eager beaver infantry were not so focused on getting their murder taxis spawned in, maybe the tankers on your team could get their railguns in play soon enough to prevent the enemy from getting up high. Not to mention that getting a properly skilled sniper in a position to keep a heavy away from a ledge is quite simple. The statement that no one can stop a FG up high is baseless provided you are willing to actually think about the problem, instead of just wanting it changed to better suit your playstyle. All of the preceding ignores the fact that there are in fact many ways to attack a heavy up high, not the least of which is to get their first an prevent them from getting a foothold. The railguns and stabilized blasters have the range to hit roof forgers, but the problem is one of tracking; they can't aim that high unless they're in the redline. And its simply a race to get the forge gunner up there. I've had forge guns on rooftops on my team and the enemy's, and almost every time (A few times two snipers hit the forge from different vantage points, killing him) he was up there the entire match. I'd say leave it alone if there was a way up there that wasn't a dropship. At least then he either risks being flanked or has to have someone cover him. But as it is, there's nothing but hoping you get lucky enough to get to him.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 57	Posted - 2013.08.12 10:04:00 - [5] - Quote Since it is a railgun, not a ball of electricity as I thought previously, I will retract my range nerf. In its place, increase the charge time significantly. Lore-wise, accelerating a projectile to those speeds on a handheld platform would take a real long time, say, 7-9 seconds. Vehicle railguns should remain the same, because they are using the power generated by the vehicle itself in order to accelerate the projectile.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 58	Posted - 2013.08.12 13:00:00 - [6] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Since it is a railgun, not a ball of electricity as I thought previously, I will retract my range nerf. In its place, increase the charge time significantly. Lore-wise, accelerating a projectile to those speeds on a handheld platform would take a real long time, say, 7-9 seconds. Vehicle railguns should remain the same, because they are using the power generated by the vehicle itself in order to accelerate the projectile. if you nerf the charge time on the forge gun i think it would be fair to give it a damage buff. other wise the tank will laugh at you while it drives a way or for s**ts and giggles runs you over while you are waiting for your next shot to charge. in other words there should be an appropriate compensation for a longer charge time as seen in the breach varient A damage buff seems like too much, they already out damage a large rail turret. A small one, if any. Perhaps buff the splash radius, Since they'll be vulnerable longer in CQC.