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Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
15
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Posted - 2013.06.07 06:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Please note that LAV drivers need a way to score war points to justify ISK/SP invested. This is very important.
Right now LAVs score the most war points running as death taxis. Now, don't get me wrong, running people over is damn fun, especially when I get to rake some proto over the coals. I wouldn't take it completely out of the game simply because of the fun factor.
Having said that, as a LAV driver, I do think the death taxi spam can be toned down a notch. But I would do it by requiring LAVs to be traveling at higher speed to get the kill, or by smashing infantry against a wall. Otherwise impacts will simply push enemy infantry around or cause certain amount of damage (not death). In return for warpoints lost, it would be more realistic for LAVs to get more warpoints from turret gunner kills and moving troops around, MCRUs, repping armor (LLAV) etc.
On the issue of turrets/gunners, right now it is very hard to get a dedicated gunner for my LAV because turrets are just not that deadly. And they should be. They should outclass infantry weapons handily. In Uprising, small rail turrets are a joke damage wise and are no good up close (typical LAV range to the enemy). You can't hit the broadside of a barn with small missile turrets. Small blaster turrets are OK, but are still slower to kill infantry than say, a decent AR. I'm talking about lower level small turrets and lower level turret skills. From "realistic combat perspective", even low level small turrets should be deadly and outclass most, if not all handheld weapons.
The other problem is LAV gunners get killed too easily. Its hard enough getting one to use your turret, its quite another to keep him/her alive. LAV gunners can get sniped or simply shot from close range and they cannot move while using the turret. This is rather silly, as a well designed LAV would have a gunners nest (shielded or surrounded by armor), to protect the gunner. As it stands, when I run pub matches, I'm basically driving alone unless I'm moving a squadmate from point A to point B.
I would really appreciate some improvements for gunners/turrets and warpoints scored by them and myself as the driver, in exchange for a death taxi nerf. Other ways of scoring warpoints via troop transport, MCRUs, repping, etc would also be great, but at least this first point.
There's a lot of QQ'ers on the forums who are crying for a death taxi nerf. CCP, please keep in mind that AV is in the game for a reason, and most of the playerbase from what I have seen in-game know how to dodge LAVs well enough that I don't get an inordinate number of kills when I'm driving around the map. However, I do observe that when I'm driving around, infantry movement is greatly restricted to those portions of the map with cover and/or mountainous areas. That may not be what CCP intended, I am not sure.
In any case, this should not be a clear-cut nerf case like the TAR because of the warpoints issue.
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xSir Campsalotx
Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2013.06.07 06:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Except heavies we can't dodge we can't even barely jump.
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Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
15
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Posted - 2013.06.07 06:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
xSir Campsalotx wrote:Except heavies we can't dodge we can't even barely jump.
Fair enough, but please read what I posted, I don't have a problem with a death taxi nerf per se, only that LAV drivers get some alternative way to score warpoints/kills that justifies their SP/ISK investment. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
82
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Posted - 2013.06.07 06:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
As a vehicle specialist, I too am concerned with the current spot LAVs are in. I have a couple of non-WP related points to add to LAV changes that could help make us LAV drivers more of an asset. With everyone getting free LAVs for transport and LAVs being moderately awful at everything except running people over, I would love CCP to invest some time looking at where they are.
I am one of the supporters of removing free LAVs from the game (some people say it's not fair because Merc pack guys got free special edition ones but that's bought by aurum in the same way a Dragonfly scout suit was, so I see no discrepancy there). The main reason I would remove free LAVs is NOT due to the death taxi style of metagame we are experiencing but rather it makes someone who is willing to call down an LAV and assist his squadmates with rapid transport more attractive to the team.
As is, why would you sit in the gunner seat of someone else's LAV when:
1) You'll just be shot because you have no protection from any side 2) You can just call your own and go wherever you want instead of where the LAV driver takes you 3) You can have fun running people over with the LAV 4) If you're in the passenger seat you're effectively dead weight to the entire team until you leave the passenger seat
I believe combining the physical changes to LAVs I described in the thread I linked, alongside the tactical (WP) changes you have called for would amplify the utility and attractiveness of the LAV greatly. We NEED vehicle assist kills from our gunner (and eventually shotgun passenger), and we NEED a better LLAV remote rep system (plus WP for doing so). We need the Scout LAV to offer a more noticeable advantage over the standard LAV as well.
I am also agreeing with having LAVs only do X amount of damage to dropsuits up to X speed. It would allow you to hit damaged dropsuits for a driveby kill to assist your buddies in a firefight but reduces the death taxi minigame in DUST.
+1 to you. |
Vicious Minotaur
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2013.06.07 07:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
If LAVs had other ways to earn WP asside from roadkill, that may help to reduce the murder-taxi problem (in addition to the eventual nerf). So more ways to earn WP in an LAV is definitely a good idea.
I imagine that it would be beneficial to brainstorm other (more specific) ways for LAVs to earn WP. I don't use LAVs, so my ideas may not be any good:
- The driver getting WP for transporting infantry who go on to immediately hack, score a kill, or revive somebody. - An assist for a gunner and driver who watches over an in-progress hack - WP for transporting teammates being shot by enemy troops to a safer area
That's all I can think of at this moment... |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
16
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Posted - 2013.06.07 08:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote: I am one of the supporters of removing free LAVs from the game (some people say it's not fair because Merc pack guys got free special edition ones but that's bought by aurum in the same way a Dragonfly scout suit was, so I see no discrepancy there). The main reason I would remove free LAVs is NOT due to the death taxi style of metagame we are experiencing but rather it makes someone who is willing to call down an LAV and assist his squadmates with rapid transport more attractive to the team.
This is an excellent point. I am also generally in favor of removing BPO militia LAVs for all players, for the simple reason that aurum buyers who buy a BPO LAV are simply getting access to LAVs earlier than those who are playing for free ( which is no different than aurum BPO dropsuits, BPO weapons, etc), and regardless, SP-unlocked LAVs are still a lot better than aurum BPO LAVs.
More importantly, you provide some insight into the metagame at work here. Free BPO LAVs do indeed dilute the value of a dedicated, SP invested LAV driver, both in terms of moving troops around and in terms of finding a gunner. Nobody's going to be my gunner if they can get more warpoints driving their own free death taxi. But this also speaks to my earlier point that:
1) Turrets aren't deadly enough, in general 2) LAV gunners die way, way too easily
We may need a dev to post in here whether it is possible to put removal of BPO militia LAVs on the negotiating table. Because removing BPO militia LAVs would greatly reduce death taxi abuse in itself. If you have to plunk down the ISK and the SP, you're not going to be driving your death taxi as much in the first place.
It gets really complicated though, because removing BPO militia LAVs will make dedicated AV players unhappy as they will have less to do (which isn't much already, at least in pub matches). Some thought needs to be put into this to avoid unintended consequences that screw up the game for others.
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EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
82
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Posted - 2013.06.07 08:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Esper Shadows wrote:EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote: I am one of the supporters of removing free LAVs from the game (some people say it's not fair because Merc pack guys got free special edition ones but that's bought by aurum in the same way a Dragonfly scout suit was, so I see no discrepancy there). The main reason I would remove free LAVs is NOT due to the death taxi style of metagame we are experiencing but rather it makes someone who is willing to call down an LAV and assist his squadmates with rapid transport more attractive to the team.
This is an excellent point. I am also generally in favor of removing BPO militia LAVs for all players, for the simple reason that aurum buyers who buy a BPO LAV are simply getting access to LAVs earlier than those who are playing for free ( which is no different than aurum BPO dropsuits, BPO weapons, etc), and regardless, SP-unlocked LAVs are still a lot better than aurum BPO LAVs. More importantly, you provide some insight into the metagame at work here. Free BPO LAVs do indeed dilute the value of a dedicated, SP invested LAV driver, both in terms of moving troops around and in terms of finding a gunner. Nobody's going to be my gunner if they can get more warpoints driving their own free death taxi. But this also speaks to my earlier point that: 1) Turrets aren't deadly enough, in general 2) LAV gunners die way, way too easily We may need a dev to post in here whether it is possible to put removal of BPO militia LAVs on the negotiating table. Because removing BPO militia LAVs would greatly reduce death taxi abuse in itself. If you have to plunk down the ISK and the SP, you're not going to be driving your death taxi as much in the first place. It gets really complicated though, because removing BPO militia LAVs will make dedicated AV players unhappy as they will have less to do (which isn't much already, at least in pub matches). Some thought needs to be put into this to avoid unintended consequences that screw up the game for others. About your point on the dedicated AV player, I still see many, many HAVs and Dropships in public matches. And the good news is for him he can always swap out into a free combat suit and still be a team asset, switching over to his PWNsauce AV fitting if/when necessary.
As a vehicle specialist, I have to play dual role sometimes too, at least in public matches. If it gets to a point where it's unsafe for me to fly my Dropship, support my team with my HAV, or play transport in the LAV, I am forced to either sit there and hope my team manages to quell the AV issue or get out and fix it myself. Often times it does involve getting out and fixing it myself, because it's WAY too expensive for me to risk my HAV or LAV for (essentially) nothing. The AV specialist doesn't have such a heavy ISK load weighing over his head, and by removing the free AV kills for him, he will actually learn the tricks of the trade when REALLY hunting vehicles.
He'll learn what his advantages are and how to properly use terrain and location in order to hunt vehicles and drive them off the field. As of right now being AV can mean simple and free WP just from the easy kills death taxis provide. Just because he's gotten lots of kills against LAVs with his Packed AV grenades doesn't mean he's ready to properly deal with an enemy HAV, or a tanked LLAV.
And of course at the same time it teaches our teammates to respect our value when we call down our LAV to assist them in combat and transport. As another side benefit, it also actually ENCOURAGES dedicated AV specialization, in that people can't just swap to their rookie Anti-Armor suit and drive vehicles off the field, because the Militia swarm just won't be enough to deal with properly tanked (and properly driven) vehicles. |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
17
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Posted - 2013.06.07 09:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
EXASTRA, I see where you're coming from bro. I'm not dedicated AV so I can't speak for them. But I do run my noob Anti-armor fit on occasion - just not so often because the free BPO LAVs get blown up so fast anyway, that they're usually dead by the time I respawn in that suit. Also, turret installations are free WP early-on in a skirmish, and they usually get taken out before I get a chance to use AV against them. So, I can't see dedicated AV having much to do after the early game in skirmish mode, at least in a pub match. To say nothing of ambush. I do end up running around a lot trying to find something to do after I spawn as noob AV even in skirmish mode.
Perhaps dedicated AV can only be a niche role that veteran players skill into exclusively for PC corp battles (not enough WP gain for noobs to skill into these weapons to start). Not sure what CCP wants to see here.
Anyway, this is a potentially unintended consequence that CCP should consider. A possible knock-on effect of a death taxi nerf. |
Rei Shepard
Spectre II
341
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Posted - 2013.06.07 10:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
A few things need to be added to keep Death Taxing to a minimum but for those Die hards still possible
*Speed Dependend Damage: makes no sense how a 1 mph Lav gets you sometimes, damage should go up depending how fast its going *Crash damage: Lav drivers will try any and all manouvers if it gets em a kill, even driving into walls for peanuts damage *Lav receives damage as it hits a person or object depending on speed and mass of target *Lav damage dependend on how much armor plates are on it, you want a murder taxi, stack armor plates *Shield blips out on a collision, i mean you are hitting me for 10.000 damage how come your shield isnt taking the same amount of damage, i can argue they are reinforced shields but still they should take quite some damage. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
439
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Posted - 2013.06.07 10:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Put a shield on the LAV turret.
I've always found it sad that I can kill a guy on a turret using my scrambler pistol before he can kill me with a LAV blaster...
In fact... it's been a long time, since I've seen a LAV turret kill ANYONE.
If the death taxi situation is remedied, it should be compensated in some way. I say better protection for the LAV gunner. Give the LAV gunners full and total frontal protection, from small arms fire. People would have to shoot the gunner directly from behind or a little more than 90-degrees to either of his sides. |
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XiBravo
TeamPlayers EoN.
107
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Posted - 2013.06.07 10:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Put a shield on the LAV turret.
I've always found it sad that I can kill a guy on a turret using my scrambler pistol before he can kill me with a LAV blaster...
In fact... it's been a long time, since I've seen a LAV turret kill ANYONE.
If the death taxi situation is remedied, it should be compensated in some way. I say better protection for the LAV gunner. Give the LAV gunners full and total frontal protection, from small arms fire. People would have to shoot the gunner directly from behind or a little more than 90-degrees to either of his sides.
+1 |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 10:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rei Shepard wrote:A few things need to be added to keep Death Taxing to a minimum but for those Die hards still possible
*Speed Dependend Damage: makes no sense how a 1 mph Lav gets you sometimes, damage should go up depending how fast its going *Crash damage: Lav drivers will try any and all manouvers if it gets em a kill, even driving into walls for peanuts damage *Lav receives damage as it hits a person or object depending on speed and mass of target *Lav damage dependend on how much armor plates are on it, you want a murder taxi, stack armor plates *Shield blips out on a collision, i mean you are hitting me for 10.000 damage how come your shield isnt taking the same amount of damage, i can argue they are reinforced shields but still they should take quite some damage.
That's a lot of changes... it would probably be best to try reducing the impact damage vs. LAV velocity curve first and see how that works out. That will end up helping the heavy suits the most because they have the most HP, and heavies are the easiest targets for death taxis.
The way I see it, we first need to find out if removing the free BPO LAVs is on the table. If it is, then try that first. If not, then ratcheting down the impact damage vs LAV velocity curve. LAV damage (i.e. LAV takes damage when hitting infantry) could also be considered, but this would be hard to balance. Free BPO LAVs are already easy to blow up. If they blow up just by hitting one enemy infantry, that's not very realistic. Higher end LAVs and LLAVs will not really be affected by this change unless free BPO LAVs get blown up by only a couple impacts with infantry.
Anytime you add damage to something you have to balance it all the way across the game and deal with unintended consequences. Same with subtracting damage. All I'm saying here is that subtracting impact damage to infantry (rather than adding damage to LAVs) would make more sense because LAV drivers want their vehicles to be tough to blow-up and they want to be able to score WP by other means besides death taxis.
For example, it would be cool if I could run over a heavy, not kill it, just damage it enough so that my gunner can finish it off. But for that to happen, again, I need 1) deadlier small turrets, and 2) a gunner nest on my LAV so my gunner won't die so easily and 3) appropriate incentives, WP rewards for both gunner and driver.
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ImpureMort
Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2013.06.07 10:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
xSir Campsalotx wrote:Except heavies we can't dodge we can't even barely jump.
have a teamate running proto av ina proto lav...if they do thier job u shouldnt be run over...maybe 1 time..a murder taci may run over my corp mate once but once i see him i chase him down and shut him the **** down...this is a teamwork based game ide say heavies are at the largest disadvantage to lavs,,.....you should def not try and face bunch of lavs as an assault or heavy...you should make sure u has a solid av specialist in ur squad |
ImpureMort
Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2013.06.07 10:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
the only adjustments lavs need ..a dmg counter upon impacting a body....so for example...a bpo lav would die and explode around a proto heavy..he tried to ramm..this counter should calculate the frame type total hp and res and the vs them against the lav and deduct appropriate dmg. if i go gta in real life i dent my hood right..so a medium proto suit should do aound 500 dmg to my charybdis ..and if i run into a proto heavy i should lose h for exaply heavy running 800 hp ..mlt....no res as unskilled base suit charybdis hits him...- 400 hp..(my chary has close to 50% pass res) this way unless ur a proto running 5 proto suits is a death trap no av or not |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 11:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
ImpureMort wrote:the only adjustments lavs need ..a dmg counter upon impacting a body....so for example...a bpo lav would die and explode around a proto heavy..he tried to ramm..this counter should calculate the frame type total hp and res and the vs them against the lav and deduct appropriate dmg. if i go gta in real life i dent my hood right..so a medium proto suit should do aound 500 dmg to my charybdis ..and if i run into a proto heavy i should lose h for exaply heavy running 800 hp ..mlt....no res as unskilled base suit charybdis hits him...- 400 hp..(my chary has close to 50% pass res) this way unless ur a proto running 5 proto suits is a death trap no av or not
500 - 800 dmg is a lot. That would almost one-shot a free LAV. LAVs would be driving *around* red infantry with that kind of impact damage. That would be bizarre. It would partially undo CCP's HP buff for LAVs. |
Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
639
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Posted - 2013.06.07 11:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maybe a compromise, like if a player sees a Death Taxi coming, they can activate their Inertia Dampeners and then it slows the car to a crawl so an AV player can blast them. God help the Taxi driver when that same player is an AV player. |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 13:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
For those of you who may not be caught up on what is happening, CCP is working on a death taxi "fix" but its precise nature is as yet unknown. LAV drivers, if you want to have a say in what happens this is your chance. |
Smoky The Bear
Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel
100
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Posted - 2013.06.07 13:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
they already did it.. check your stats |
Ronan Elsword
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
31
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Posted - 2013.06.07 14:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm saying this in all the threads I find about this, but just lower militia LAV's health back to Chromosome. Less people did it when they were a one hit kill from AV grenades. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
83
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Posted - 2013.06.07 14:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Esper Shadows wrote:EXASTRA, I see where you're coming from bro. I'm not dedicated AV so I can't speak for them. But I do run my noob Anti-armor fit on occasion - just not so often because the free BPO LAVs get blown up so fast anyway, that they're usually dead by the time I respawn in that suit. Also, turret installations are free WP early-on in a skirmish, and they usually get taken out before I get a chance to use AV against them. So, I can't see dedicated AV having much to do after the early game in skirmish mode, at least in a pub match. To say nothing of ambush. I do end up running around a lot trying to find something to do after I spawn as noob AV after blowing up the free LAVs, even in skirmish mode.
Perhaps dedicated AV can only be a niche role that veteran players skill into exclusively for PC corp battles (not enough WP gain for noobs to skill into these weapons to start). Not sure what CCP wants to see here.
Anyway, this is a potentially unintended consequence that CCP should consider. A possible knock-on effect of a death taxi nerf. I believe AV in general will be a far more important role for matches that matter than in public matches. As is, our 500,000 ISK HAVs are just too expensive to throw around aimlessly on pub matches unless we're trying to learn tactics and maps. I don't think vehicles really belong in ambush so by design that would make AV not useful there either.
That aside, AV will never be a wasted specialization. It won't be as much WP as running around with your scrambler rifle racking up assists and kills, but AV won't ever be wasted. When that time comes that a heavily tanked HAV is steamrolling everyone's defenses, a spec'd AV player will mean all the difference, because your Assault Rifle sure isn't going to do much, and honestly MLT Swarms don't phase full spec HAVs much. |
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Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 14:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Smoky The Bear wrote:they already did it.. check your stats
I checked... they haven't done anything (yet). |
Shady IceCream Truck
Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel
49
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Posted - 2013.06.07 15:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
UPDATE: the problem is solved
all we needed was to wait for people to spec into AV nades... 2 weeks
If you didnt do this, then you continue to take your chances.. hope your not a heavy
And im not sure im happy that my fullly shielded logi can be 1 shotted by a Mai Lai AV grenade..
Also there was a stealth nerf just applied to Lav's..
I really could care less if you nerf my taxi into oblivion .. i just did this to prove a point that AR's needed a nerf, and rest of the weapons should be restored to their pre patch stats..
My job is halfway done here.. |
Prothall Sidar
Capital Acquisitions LLC
0
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Posted - 2013.08.05 04:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
I like the idea of scaling the LAV damage based on the speed it is going. How many unarmoured people have been hit at 30 mph in the real world and live. Yes, they are injured, but they are not dead.
In the DUST 514 world, an LAV at a full stop will kill a fully armoured medium suit, that can survive a fall from a spaceship, with a quick lurch forward (uphill). I have never witnessed an HAV going at full speed kill anyone; why not? That should be more likely to crush someone than an LAV. |
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