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Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
15
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Posted - 2013.06.07 06:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Please note that LAV drivers need a way to score war points to justify ISK/SP invested. This is very important.
Right now LAVs score the most war points running as death taxis. Now, don't get me wrong, running people over is damn fun, especially when I get to rake some proto over the coals. I wouldn't take it completely out of the game simply because of the fun factor.
Having said that, as a LAV driver, I do think the death taxi spam can be toned down a notch. But I would do it by requiring LAVs to be traveling at higher speed to get the kill, or by smashing infantry against a wall. Otherwise impacts will simply push enemy infantry around or cause certain amount of damage (not death). In return for warpoints lost, it would be more realistic for LAVs to get more warpoints from turret gunner kills and moving troops around, MCRUs, repping armor (LLAV) etc.
On the issue of turrets/gunners, right now it is very hard to get a dedicated gunner for my LAV because turrets are just not that deadly. And they should be. They should outclass infantry weapons handily. In Uprising, small rail turrets are a joke damage wise and are no good up close (typical LAV range to the enemy). You can't hit the broadside of a barn with small missile turrets. Small blaster turrets are OK, but are still slower to kill infantry than say, a decent AR. I'm talking about lower level small turrets and lower level turret skills. From "realistic combat perspective", even low level small turrets should be deadly and outclass most, if not all handheld weapons.
The other problem is LAV gunners get killed too easily. Its hard enough getting one to use your turret, its quite another to keep him/her alive. LAV gunners can get sniped or simply shot from close range and they cannot move while using the turret. This is rather silly, as a well designed LAV would have a gunners nest (shielded or surrounded by armor), to protect the gunner. As it stands, when I run pub matches, I'm basically driving alone unless I'm moving a squadmate from point A to point B.
I would really appreciate some improvements for gunners/turrets and warpoints scored by them and myself as the driver, in exchange for a death taxi nerf. Other ways of scoring warpoints via troop transport, MCRUs, repping, etc would also be great, but at least this first point.
There's a lot of QQ'ers on the forums who are crying for a death taxi nerf. CCP, please keep in mind that AV is in the game for a reason, and most of the playerbase from what I have seen in-game know how to dodge LAVs well enough that I don't get an inordinate number of kills when I'm driving around the map. However, I do observe that when I'm driving around, infantry movement is greatly restricted to those portions of the map with cover and/or mountainous areas. That may not be what CCP intended, I am not sure.
In any case, this should not be a clear-cut nerf case like the TAR because of the warpoints issue.
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Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
15
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Posted - 2013.06.07 06:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
xSir Campsalotx wrote:Except heavies we can't dodge we can't even barely jump.
Fair enough, but please read what I posted, I don't have a problem with a death taxi nerf per se, only that LAV drivers get some alternative way to score warpoints/kills that justifies their SP/ISK investment. |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
16
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Posted - 2013.06.07 08:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote: I am one of the supporters of removing free LAVs from the game (some people say it's not fair because Merc pack guys got free special edition ones but that's bought by aurum in the same way a Dragonfly scout suit was, so I see no discrepancy there). The main reason I would remove free LAVs is NOT due to the death taxi style of metagame we are experiencing but rather it makes someone who is willing to call down an LAV and assist his squadmates with rapid transport more attractive to the team.
This is an excellent point. I am also generally in favor of removing BPO militia LAVs for all players, for the simple reason that aurum buyers who buy a BPO LAV are simply getting access to LAVs earlier than those who are playing for free ( which is no different than aurum BPO dropsuits, BPO weapons, etc), and regardless, SP-unlocked LAVs are still a lot better than aurum BPO LAVs.
More importantly, you provide some insight into the metagame at work here. Free BPO LAVs do indeed dilute the value of a dedicated, SP invested LAV driver, both in terms of moving troops around and in terms of finding a gunner. Nobody's going to be my gunner if they can get more warpoints driving their own free death taxi. But this also speaks to my earlier point that:
1) Turrets aren't deadly enough, in general 2) LAV gunners die way, way too easily
We may need a dev to post in here whether it is possible to put removal of BPO militia LAVs on the negotiating table. Because removing BPO militia LAVs would greatly reduce death taxi abuse in itself. If you have to plunk down the ISK and the SP, you're not going to be driving your death taxi as much in the first place.
It gets really complicated though, because removing BPO militia LAVs will make dedicated AV players unhappy as they will have less to do (which isn't much already, at least in pub matches). Some thought needs to be put into this to avoid unintended consequences that screw up the game for others.
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Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
17
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Posted - 2013.06.07 09:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
EXASTRA, I see where you're coming from bro. I'm not dedicated AV so I can't speak for them. But I do run my noob Anti-armor fit on occasion - just not so often because the free BPO LAVs get blown up so fast anyway, that they're usually dead by the time I respawn in that suit. Also, turret installations are free WP early-on in a skirmish, and they usually get taken out before I get a chance to use AV against them. So, I can't see dedicated AV having much to do after the early game in skirmish mode, at least in a pub match. To say nothing of ambush. I do end up running around a lot trying to find something to do after I spawn as noob AV even in skirmish mode.
Perhaps dedicated AV can only be a niche role that veteran players skill into exclusively for PC corp battles (not enough WP gain for noobs to skill into these weapons to start). Not sure what CCP wants to see here.
Anyway, this is a potentially unintended consequence that CCP should consider. A possible knock-on effect of a death taxi nerf. |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 10:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rei Shepard wrote:A few things need to be added to keep Death Taxing to a minimum but for those Die hards still possible
*Speed Dependend Damage: makes no sense how a 1 mph Lav gets you sometimes, damage should go up depending how fast its going *Crash damage: Lav drivers will try any and all manouvers if it gets em a kill, even driving into walls for peanuts damage *Lav receives damage as it hits a person or object depending on speed and mass of target *Lav damage dependend on how much armor plates are on it, you want a murder taxi, stack armor plates *Shield blips out on a collision, i mean you are hitting me for 10.000 damage how come your shield isnt taking the same amount of damage, i can argue they are reinforced shields but still they should take quite some damage.
That's a lot of changes... it would probably be best to try reducing the impact damage vs. LAV velocity curve first and see how that works out. That will end up helping the heavy suits the most because they have the most HP, and heavies are the easiest targets for death taxis.
The way I see it, we first need to find out if removing the free BPO LAVs is on the table. If it is, then try that first. If not, then ratcheting down the impact damage vs LAV velocity curve. LAV damage (i.e. LAV takes damage when hitting infantry) could also be considered, but this would be hard to balance. Free BPO LAVs are already easy to blow up. If they blow up just by hitting one enemy infantry, that's not very realistic. Higher end LAVs and LLAVs will not really be affected by this change unless free BPO LAVs get blown up by only a couple impacts with infantry.
Anytime you add damage to something you have to balance it all the way across the game and deal with unintended consequences. Same with subtracting damage. All I'm saying here is that subtracting impact damage to infantry (rather than adding damage to LAVs) would make more sense because LAV drivers want their vehicles to be tough to blow-up and they want to be able to score WP by other means besides death taxis.
For example, it would be cool if I could run over a heavy, not kill it, just damage it enough so that my gunner can finish it off. But for that to happen, again, I need 1) deadlier small turrets, and 2) a gunner nest on my LAV so my gunner won't die so easily and 3) appropriate incentives, WP rewards for both gunner and driver.
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Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 11:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
ImpureMort wrote:the only adjustments lavs need ..a dmg counter upon impacting a body....so for example...a bpo lav would die and explode around a proto heavy..he tried to ramm..this counter should calculate the frame type total hp and res and the vs them against the lav and deduct appropriate dmg. if i go gta in real life i dent my hood right..so a medium proto suit should do aound 500 dmg to my charybdis ..and if i run into a proto heavy i should lose h for exaply heavy running 800 hp ..mlt....no res as unskilled base suit charybdis hits him...- 400 hp..(my chary has close to 50% pass res) this way unless ur a proto running 5 proto suits is a death trap no av or not
500 - 800 dmg is a lot. That would almost one-shot a free LAV. LAVs would be driving *around* red infantry with that kind of impact damage. That would be bizarre. It would partially undo CCP's HP buff for LAVs. |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 13:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
For those of you who may not be caught up on what is happening, CCP is working on a death taxi "fix" but its precise nature is as yet unknown. LAV drivers, if you want to have a say in what happens this is your chance. |
Esper Shadows
Copper Dogs
19
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Posted - 2013.06.07 14:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Smoky The Bear wrote:they already did it.. check your stats
I checked... they haven't done anything (yet). |
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