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trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
33
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know tanks alone cost a lot of SP. But what's the actual gap for maxing out a tank vs maxing out a dropsuit?
I've never actually fully maxed out a certain class before so I need some help with figuring this out. Let's go with basic fittings that are most common to figure this out, shall we? Let's say an AR Assault vs Blaster Armor tank. How much SP do you need to invest to max out what you need to fully equip them with all the trimmings? Of course some of these skills are required for both play sets, so we'll tally those in as well for both sides.
SO, let's start with a list of the basic loadouts we see most commonly used for AR runners:
AR Assault: Armor Plates Armor Repair Mods Shield Extenders Nanohives Grenades SMG Assault Rifle
Ok, now what skills do we need to FULLY max this class out, including passive skills?:
Caldari Assault Dropsuit at lvl 5
AR & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
Sharpshooter & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
Reload & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
Capacity & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
Upgrade & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
SMG & it's Proficiency at lvl 5=621,840 SP + ???
Sidearm Sharpshooter & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 310,920 SP+???
Sidearm Reload & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 310,920 SP+???
Sidearm Capacity & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 310,920 SP+???
Sidearm Upgrade & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 310,920 SP+???
Grenadier at lvl 5= ???
Weaponry lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Vigor at lvl 5 (for the passive bonus)= ???
Endurance at lvl 5 (for the passive bonus)= ???
Armor Upgrades at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
Armor Repair Upgrades at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
Shield Boost Systems at lvl 5= ???
Shield Control at lvl 5= ???
Shield Enhancements at lvl 5= ???
Circuitry at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Nanocircuitry at lvl 5= 621,840 SP
Long Range Scanning= 621,840 SP
Profile Analysis at lvl 5 (for the passive bonus, for the sake of argument I won't add dampening skills though since some people LIKE to be seen)=???
Engineering at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Mechanics at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
And now the average tank fittings thrown onto a blaster tank:
Small turrets (we'll just go ahead and count both small missile AND hybrid turrets in this section to avoid a squabble over turret types, we'll add the SP needed for both together) Large blaster turret Armor Hardners Shield Extenders NOS Mods Armor repairs Armor Plates
And what skills do we need to FULLY max out our armor blaster tank, including passives?:
Small Hybrid Turret & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 310,920 SP+???
Small Missile Turret & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= 310,920 SP+???
Large Hybrid Turret & it's Proficiency at lvl 5= ???
Turret Operation at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Turret Upgrades at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Armor Upgrades at lvl 3= 621,840 SP + ???
Armor Repair Upgrades at lvl 5= 621,840 SP + ???
Armor Adaptation lvl 5= ???
Shield Boost Systems at lvl 5= 621,840 SP
Shield Control at lvl 5= ???
Shield Enhancements at lvl 5= 621,840 SP
Circuitry at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Gallente HAV at lvl 5= ???
Engineering at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Mechanics at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
Vehicle Command at lvl 5= 310,920 SP
SO, help me gather these missing SP totals so we can put this to bed. We all know that getting started in HAV's is more expensive, but is it more expensive SP wise overall as a class?
Please submit SP totals for each category and I will edit the OP to include these SP totals.
Also, if you spot a passive skill or requirement skill that I left out for either the dropsuit or tank build, please let me know. |
Travi Zyg
G I A N T
22
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
i can definetly help fill in some of your AR/assault skills once i get off of work today, if they are still "???". but im off my 30 min break as of right now. will report in later |
Rustonius
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
From the training forum stickies, useful links and directly skill point spreadsheet
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trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
34
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
I can update the entire OP with that second link, thank you very much. This will allow me to end this very easily once I sign in. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
424
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Add the scanning and overdrive skills in for tanks |
trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
34
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Add the scanning and overdrive skills in for tanks For overdrives, that's engineering. For active speed boosters that's command and vehicle maneuvering. I think I had those, but I will check to be certain.
EdiT: I will add the scanning skills |
TERMINALANCE
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
+1 tanks need to require double the sp they do now |
slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
469
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
You forgot marauder skill, and HAV's don't have Turret sharpshooter skills, upgrade skills, reload skills, or capacity skills (I would like to have these so I can create a better fit)
Not to mention the fact that all the support skills effect any specialization
You should take out the support skills and add it that way |
Mr Zitro
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
417
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you are going to add everything a infantry player can use you might as well add all a tank can use, Power grid upgrades Shield adaptation and yes I do use them on a armor tank Shield transportation when I spider tank Remote repair systems when I spider tank Large missiles (for the lols) And shield tanks too cause you never know when I want to play shield tank Now lets go into dropships and LAVs
So now do you see how stupid this argument is? |
Severus Smith
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
170
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tanks just need a better hard counter. Add real Heavy Tanks. They decimate smaller tanks but their size, turn speed, and large gun limits their effectiveness against infantry. Solves the problem for infantry and gives tankers more toys. |
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
461
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
trollface dot jpg wrote: You wish to speak of redundancy? I even added in the slight PG bonus from leveling to lvl 5 armor plates on tanks just for the extra 6% usage drops. I even put in small missile turret skills up to proficiency level just for S&G's. I put in every passive point that I could for each side since this is a MAX OUT THE CLASS test here.
If tankers had more skills than dropsuits, I wouldn't have left out any of the tanks skills. The fact that it requires more skills to max a dropsuit than to max a tank is sort of the point here. You can max out your class 11,000,000 SP more quickly with a tank than with a dropsuit. If you want me to throw in ALL of the tank skills, I'd have to throw in ALL of the dropsuit skills as well. Would you like me to do that next? I'll even limit it to one heavy weapon, one light weapon and one sidearm if you think that's fair. The dropsuit will still require more SP.
Armor Upgrades applies to Infantry as well, so that's not redundant.
You have for infantry which can't apply to Tanks (as in there is not a Vehicle equivalent)
- Sharpshooter & it's Proficiency
- Reload & it's Proficiency
- Capacity & it's Proficiency
- Upgrade & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Sharpshooter & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Reload & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Capacity & it's Proficiency
- Sidearm Upgrade & it's Proficiency
- Grenadier
- Endurance
- Nanocircuitry
- Profile Analysis
Now for skills that apply to vehicles only...
Vigor = Vehicle Maneuvering Turret Upgrades+Turret Operation = Weaponry (due to the fact weaponry unlocks modules and skill bonus)
Some other skills that apply to vehicles only are Shield Emission (For now) Shield Adaptation
This is my logic for saying that the math is redundant. There are more skills in Infantry that don't apply to tanks than tank skills that don't apply to infantry, a lot more. So you can't rightly say that Dropsuits are more expensive if you were to use skills only applicable to both (have equivalents on both sides) |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
421
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
no point in getting the HAV skill past 3 in the current build.
also, marauder skill exists and is expensive.
but more to the point guys, i think this is to debunk the whole "i'm spending so many skillpoints on it so i GET to steamroll people" argument that some people try to toss around. HAVs just aren't that SP intensive. |
slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
470
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Buzzwords wrote:no point in getting the HAV skill past 3 in the current build.
also, marauder skill exists and is expensive.
but more to the point guys, i think this is to debunk the whole "i'm spending so many skillpoints on it so i GET to steamroll people" argument that some people try to toss around. HAVs just aren't that SP intensive.
Disagree if we had more skillbooks they would still be more SP then infantry |
Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
464
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 20:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Buzzwords wrote:no point in getting the HAV skill past 3 in the current build.
also, marauder skill exists and is expensive.
but more to the point guys, i think this is to debunk the whole "i'm spending so many skillpoints on it so i GET to steamroll people" argument that some people try to toss around. HAVs just aren't that SP intensive.
Marauder is x12 book and needs added.
Also when tanks get ecm and other modules we will have more skills.
With the new proto tanks on the way there might even be a proficiency skill to HAV.
Infantry flat out has more trainable skills atm then tank, after all we only have 3 tanks. 1 doesn't take skill.
+1 For the math though, was interesting. |
DJINN Marauder
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
257
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Posted - 2013.03.01 21:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
I should've have gone tank... Aka noob status |
Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
464
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 21:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:I should've have gone tank... Aka noob status
Don't you play tank?
when ur corp sees me in match there's 4 tanks on field at match start. |
DJINN Marauder
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
257
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Posted - 2013.03.01 22:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Y0UR NAME HERE wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:I should've have gone tank... Aka noob status Don't you play tank? when ur corp sees me in match there's 4 tanks on field at match start. Nope I don't.
And we don't even have 4 tankers in our corp lol. To my knowledge, we have 3. |
Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
464
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 23:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:Y0UR NAME HERE wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:I should've have gone tank... Aka noob status Don't you play tank? when ur corp sees me in match there's 4 tanks on field at match start. Nope I don't. And we don't even have 4 tankers in our corp lol. To my knowledge, we have 3.
Wasn't saying they were above militia.
Although ill give them props.
I killed 2 and didn't notice there was another, so I turned off reps, behold.....another!!!! |
trollface dot jpg
Destined 4 Biomass
41
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 08:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:Y0UR NAME HERE wrote:DJINN Marauder wrote:I should've have gone tank... Aka noob status Don't you play tank? when ur corp sees me in match there's 4 tanks on field at match start. Nope I don't. And we don't even have 4 tankers in our corp lol. To my knowledge, we have 3. DJINN Soul, Bad Furry, and.... who's the third? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
784
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 16:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Notes: First thanks for the math, nice to see it broken down ^.^ Second, there are a few omissions based on game function et al which I would like to address so we can properly refine this tally. Pre spent SP: Maintaining the pre established baseline of using an Assault (tho the savvy HAV drivers I know go a little more Logi, especially if they're building an armor tank ;) ).
Quote:Enforcer Skills
- Grenadier lvl 1 - Dropsuit Command lvl 1 - Circuitry lvl 3 - Nanocircuitry lvl 1 - Assault Rifle Operation lvl 1 - Weaponry lvl 1 Some of the above are actually useful to a HAV build, the rest however are simply an inherent SP cost which must be included in the tally as there is no way for a player to avoid paying this SP cost (i.e. CCP has built it in to all Vehicle builds so we cannot accurately ignore it when comparing total SP required to reach a given point).
Added to list Marauder at lvl 5= 3,731,040 Grenadier lvl 1= 24,880 Dropsuit Command lvl 1= 6,220 Nanocircuitry lvl 1= 12,440 Assault Rifle Operation lvl 1= 12,440 Weaponry lvl 1= 6,220 Additional SP= 3,793,240 New total HAV build= 21,528,120 Difference from listed Dropsuit SP = 7,710,801
Additional Notes, I've left it out of the above totals because it may be debatable but IMO Powergrid Upgrades lvl 5 should be included in the vehicle list (at least vehicles are the only place I ever had call to level it during closed beta).
Note 2, since it seems to be a point of contention, here's the total SP value of the Sidearm skills alone (including support skills) [All numbers drawn from figures provided in the OP, also please feel free to check my math as I'm still groggy atm] Total Sidearm SP= 8,394,840
So for those keeping score, HAV builds cost 684,039 SP more than our Assaulter before you include the sidearm skills. To be fair however missile turrets are effectively sidearms at this point so lets exclude them as well, their total is 1,043,680 which when subtracted puts the cost of the Assault fit at 359,641 higher than the HAV. Toss in PG Upgrades (because I really do think it's a requisite vehicle skill) at a cost of 621,840 and you push HAVs back to the more expensive side by 262,199.
Conclusion: Either way the true cost difference to run a Proto fit in either HAV or Assault is less than a weeks worth of (boosted) SP. [Note this is for a proper/effective proto fit it is not a comparison of fully proto as defined in the OP because it lacks the "sidearm" of both Assault and HAV being proto]
It'll be interesting to see how this spread shifts (if at all) with the introduction of eWar.
0.02 ISK Cross
ps ~ on a closing note it's worth mentioning that a Proto Heavy or a Proto Logi will cost more in both ISK and SP than our Assaulter from above but that's a whole nother kettle of fish |
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