DUST Search - The Surya

Waruiko DUST wrote:

Well they take 25% less damage base, plus a DMG control is another 14% of the remaining 75%. At that point before any hardeners you are only taking 64.5% of any incoming damage to your armor or shield. If we add in 3 armor hardeners at 25% each and they all suffer from EVE stacking penalties then you reduces the remaining damage by 61% so you are only taking 25.155% of the incoming damage on their armor.

When you are only taking effectively 1/4 damage all your reps are 4 times as effective from a relative perspective, and any plating you put on will be similarly effective.

Its worth noting that this leaves 2 Low slots unfilled on the Surya. If you fit in a 3000HP plate you are giving the tank an extra 12000 Effective Hit Points and while you would be hard pressed to get a large rep on as well you don't actually need to. A small armor rep that heals about 150HP will heal 600 EHP per cycle. If you Low ball the HP values you could say that a Surya has about 3000HP in armor base after any real level of mechanics, plus another 3000 from the plates and you get 24000 EHP that it can use to slug it out and then run when it gets lowish. and a rep they can use to fix themselves when not under pressure.

The thing you should be worried about is someone with a Surya fit for and accompanied by an LAV or Logi providing RR. Then they don't need that local rep anymore and can replace it with either more plate or another hardener. Thee extra hardener would reduce incoming damage down to 20.64% and would give the example Surya about 29000 EHP or more.

The shield marauder is similar except that it is a little bit softer a target, but it makes up for that in having its lows free for damage boosting mods.

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Jerall Holst Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2012.07.16 01:20:00 - [1] - Quote Okay, I don't know if this is unique to this particular HAV or what, but these things are an absolute nightmare to kill. It seems to be all down to the shield recharge. That thing has a monster load of shield HP, and once you get past that the driver just goes to suck his thumb in a corner, lets his shields recharge, and is back seven seconds later as deadly as ever. There's been one guy doing the rounds on the EU Plateaus Skirmish server tonight (July 16th) who has been consistently unkillable even when half the other team is firing Forge Guns and Swarm launchers at him. I appreciate that this thing is supposed to be a tank and therefore not easy to kill, but surely five or six people simultaneously firing anti-tank weapons should, you know... kill a tank? Is anybody else finding that the upper-end HAVs really are much too hard to bring down? I could propose a number of fixes, first and foremost among them being to slightly nerf HAV shield recharge rates and speed
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.07.16 01:30:00 - [2] - Quote Surya has very little shields - you can take them out with an AR. The Surya is an armor tank. What you are seeing is the faster armor repping over shield repping. Once the armor repper kicks in it's very hard to sustain DPS to keep the HP falling without constant fire. The up side is that they are slow, and they usually don't run, because they can't accelerate as fast as the Sagaris. Once you have them surrounded they're pretty much done.
Jerall Holst Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2012.07.16 01:33:00 - [3] - Quote okay, maybe I have it the wrong way around then. All I know is that when I'm one of three heavies with forge guns whaling on this thing alongside four swarm launchers and no matter how much we pile onto it it won't go down, then the amount of "sustained fire" required is simply too high. That kind of focused anti-vehicle firepower should take down ANYTHING, even with milita gear.
Bobphilsfred 16	Posted - 2012.07.16 02:29:00 - [4] - Quote Whoa whoa whoa! Your using mititia gear against a 300k+ isk tank and your surprised that your getting steamrolled?
Jerall Holst Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2012.07.16 02:36:00 - [5] - Quote me personally? No, I'm using the stuff that's actually got a price tag. But even if I wasn't, I kind of feel like there has to come a point where you're throwing enough firepower at something to be able to bring it down even with the militia stuff. Seriously, when most of your team is throwing every kind of anti-vehicle firepower they can get their hands on at one tank and doing nothing to it, that tank is overpowered. that 300K ISK should buy you a powerful asset, not an instant round-win because there's nothing the other side can do to stop it.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 02:59:00 - [6] - Quote I've brought Militia gear against a Surya and got to watch pretty explosion. Armour Repper makes it nearly (not actually) invulnerable for a short period. If they don't run away during that short window, they die soon after. If they do, and you can keep pace with them or corner them, they still die soon after.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.07.16 03:54:00 - [7] - Quote It's all about the Assault Forge Guns, man.
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.07.16 09:06:00 - [8] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: It's all about the Assault Forge Guns, man. I f***ing hate those AFG's
Jak Teston Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 99	Posted - 2012.07.16 20:12:00 - [9] - Quote I like swarm launchers for the whole "I'm not even looking at you while I kill you"-business. Suryas aren't the problem, really. I well operated Surya is a challenge, but a well operated anything is a challenge, so that's not a problem either.
Waruiko DUST G I A N T 90	Posted - 2012.07.16 20:43:00 - [10] - Quote Well they take 25% less damage base, plus a DMG control is another 14% of the remaining 75%. At that point before any hardeners you are only taking 64.5% of any incoming damage to your armor or shield. If we add in 3 armor hardeners at 25% each and they all suffer from EVE stacking penalties then you reduces the remaining damage by 61% so you are only taking 25.155% of the incoming damage on their armor. When you are only taking effectively 1/4 damage all your reps are 4 times as effective from a relative perspective, and any plating you put on will be similarly effective. Its worth noting that this leaves 2 Low slots unfilled on the Surya. If you fit in a 3000HP plate you are giving the tank an extra 12000 Effective Hit Points and while you would be hard pressed to get a large rep on as well you don't actually need to. A small armor rep that heals about 150HP will heal 600 EHP per cycle. If you Low ball the HP values you could say that a Surya has about 3000HP in armor base after any real level of mechanics, plus another 3000 from the plates and you get 24000 EHP that it can use to slug it out and then run when it gets lowish. and a rep they can use to fix themselves when not under pressure. The thing you should be worried about is someone with a Surya fit for and accompanied by an LAV or Logi providing RR. Then they don't need that local rep anymore and can replace it with either more plate or another hardener. Thee extra hardener would reduce incoming damage down to 20.64% and would give the example Surya about 29000 EHP or more. The shield marauder is similar except that it is a little bit softer a target, but it makes up for that in having its lows free for damage boosting mods.

Ceerix MKII An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 35	Posted - 2012.07.16 21:13:00 - [11] - Quote While they are beasts, it has more to do with the pilot knowing when to get out. Using a Prototype forge gun I've managed to get 6 shots into one in a row before he got out of my field of view. As annoying as it is he was down to only having enough HP to take 2 or possibly 3 more hits. I was also the only one on my team shooting him with AV weapons. Its annoying that by him running away that when I see him again I will be starting all over again. But the flip side is that if there was another few people using AV weapons of any kind he would have been dead.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.16 21:17:00 - [12] - Quote Waruiko DUST wrote: Well they take 25% less damage base, plus a DMG control is another 14% of the remaining 75%. At that point before any hardeners you are only taking 64.5% of any incoming damage to your armor or shield. If we add in 3 armor hardeners at 25% each and they all suffer from EVE stacking penalties then you reduces the remaining damage by 61% so you are only taking 25.155% of the incoming damage on their armor. When you are only taking effectively 1/4 damage all your reps are 4 times as effective from a relative perspective, and any plating you put on will be similarly effective. Its worth noting that this leaves 2 Low slots unfilled on the Surya. If you fit in a 3000HP plate you are giving the tank an extra 12000 Effective Hit Points and while you would be hard pressed to get a large rep on as well you don't actually need to. A small armor rep that heals about 150HP will heal 600 EHP per cycle. If you Low ball the HP values you could say that a Surya has about 3000HP in armor base after any real level of mechanics, plus another 3000 from the plates and you get 24000 EHP that it can use to slug it out and then run when it gets lowish. and a rep they can use to fix themselves when not under pressure. The thing you should be worried about is someone with a Surya fit for and accompanied by an LAV or Logi providing RR. Then they don't need that local rep anymore and can replace it with either more plate or another hardener. Thee extra hardener would reduce incoming damage down to 20.64% and would give the example Surya about 29000 EHP or more. The shield marauder is similar except that it is a little bit softer a target, but it makes up for that in having its lows free for damage boosting mods. So... Damage Reduction doesn't have a stacking penalty across all of its modules and that by slapping other named modules you circumvent the penalty which causes the rather extreme soaking power of the tanks correct? That's interesting to note. On the other hand for some odd reason Surya Tanks don't seem to be too much of a problem for me. I assume its because we have the counters to deal with them in terms of explosive damage but not Shield Heavy Tanks due to the lack of weapons meant to deal thermal or electromagnetic damage which in EVE from what I have been informed by is an absolute bane of their existence. I suspect that when they get implemented then we can make a judgement call on what needs tweaking but as it stands we shouldn't.
Waruiko DUST G I A N T 90	Posted - 2012.07.17 00:02:00 - [13] - Quote Oh you get those numbers running the assumption that damage reduction and stacking penalties work exactly like they do in EVE, and part of that is that a DMG Control suffers no stacking penalties. Part of the reason some people might not see much a problem is that they are either using Remote Explosives which do lots of damage all at once letting them Alpha Strike through any repair the Surya might have combining with other factors or they are a dedicated vehicle hunter and not a casual one. The Surya might also not be fit for maximum tank because its being fitted by someone who doesn't have all 5s in the relevant skills or because they want something else out of the tank that requires they sacrifice some of that fitting space. A dedicated Tank Hunter should be fairly able to fight off even these monsters if not destroy them when they over extend themselves so they don't have time to run away. For example (keeping in mind I'm running these figures from memory) an assault forge gun is going to deal with minimum skills is going to deal 1200 or so base right? Well if you are using it then you need forge gun 1 and weaponry 4 so that +12% from the weaponry and +5% damage from forge gun 1(I'm assuming the other skill is fire rate). This gives us AFG damage of 12001.121.05=1411.2 damage per shot because skills don't suffer stacking penalties in EVE and we're working on the assumption that this aspect was brought over to Dust. A Proto AFG I'm told deals about 30% more damage then a normal AFG and if that's true then it should have a base of 1560 damage. If we assume all 5s in relevant skills (that I remember) We have Weaponry 5 giving a 15% boost and Fore Gun, or its proficiency, at 5 providing 25% more damage. We end up with 15601.151.25=2242.5 before damage mods. With 2 10% damage mods it gets boosted to about 2661.6 damage per shot and if you have that other Forge Gun skill at 5 you are firing one shot off every 1.875 or so seconds. That gives you a DPS of 1419.52 and it would take you just over 21 seconds to destroy a heavy (30K EHP) tanked Surya from a mathematical perspective. That translates to just over 11 shots from your AFG with perfect skills. This also means that it would take just over 21 shots from a minimum strength AFG to destroy the same tank Seeing as you don't usually find these kinds of tanks at full health because they are fighting the whole time if you jump in at the right moment the sudden addition of a dedicated tank hunter can make a Surya seem like no big deal, but even if it was at half health a normal AFG in unskilled hands would seem to barely make a dent, especially when compared to two shoting dropships or militia Soma. Its only when you get groups of 3 or more such minimum builds that you start to tear those Surya apart. That said it doesn't take much in ISK or SP to have a dozen suits with nothing but militia mods on a militia heavy suit aand a base AFG or normal FG. TL:DR Surya + Dedicated Tank Hunter + Good Timing = Smoking Wreck Surya + Half Squad Novice Tank Hunters + Good Timing = Smoking Wreck Surya + Lone Novice = Feeling Of Powerlessness EDIT: On a related note http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Stacking_penalties has a good overview of how stacking penalties work in EVE
Xocoyol Zaraoul Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 259	Posted - 2012.07.17 00:26:00 - [14] - Quote First step is to make sure there is not a Supply Depot near it (that has passive armour regen for vehicles). Second step is to make sure there are no other vehicles hanging back using remote shield/Armour repairs on it. Someone out there (at least one person) has a tank entirely outiftted to repair other tanks, and since he hangs back most people usually ignore him and try tackling the now-invincible tank he is repping.
EVICER 63	Posted - 2012.07.17 02:48:00 - [15] - Quote Jerall Holst wrote: okay, maybe I have it the wrong way around then. All I know is that when I'm one of three heavies with forge guns whaling on this thing alongside four swarm launchers and no matter how much we pile onto it it won't go down, then the amount of "sustained fire" required is simply too high. That kind of focused anti-vehicle firepower should take down ANYTHING, even with milita gear. You dont know what Skills that particular player has...or modules equipped.I dont even own one ,but its a TANK!!!!!!! Im so sick of people asking for nerfs. You bought a perty Forge Gun and thought you were gonna own face didnt you?Its a tank you should run and shoot at it from cover like any normal real life situation.Asking the devs to nerf it just cuz you as and infantry guy couldnt take it out single handed.....why do I even bother to type this stuff out..You said you were rocking a Heavy with a forge gun....ok by your logic my militia Scout drop suit should be able to take you out right?With my submachine gun that I have no skills in and come in here and complain that heavies in this game are OP(sarcasm).....lamesauce
Zeran Haggai Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 196	Posted - 2012.07.17 03:04:00 - [16] - Quote EVICER wrote: Jerall Holst wrote: okay, maybe I have it the wrong way around then. All I know is that when I'm one of three heavies with forge guns whaling on this thing alongside four swarm launchers and no matter how much we pile onto it it won't go down, then the amount of "sustained fire" required is simply too high. That kind of focused anti-vehicle firepower should take down ANYTHING, even with milita gear. You bought a perty Forge Gun and thought you were gonna own face didnt you?Its a tank you should run and shoot at it from cover like any normal real life situation.Asking the devs to nerf it just cuz you as and infantry guy couldnt take it out single handed.... You should really go back and read what you quoted again.... y'know cause you didn't read it right the first time
Raynor Ragna 266	Posted - 2012.07.17 06:59:00 - [17] - Quote The marauders are ment to be monsters to kill. It takes teamwork. Also remember that we currently only have a fraction of the modules and weapons available to us at this time. When we get tracking disruptors and webifiers, tanks will be a very juicy and easy target.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.17 09:12:00 - [18] - Quote Also keep in mind we don't know what limitations will be placed on calling vehicles in. But we know there WILL be plenty of reasons not to spam huge and powerful vehicles even when you can afford them.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 191	Posted - 2012.07.17 09:51:00 - [19] - Quote I've soloed 2 surya with a standard assault forge gun. How? It's simple, shoot them a bit, stop shooting after they engage the repper. When they stop shining (meaning that the repper is turned off) resume shooting. Armor and shield reppers have a cooldown timer, kill them during the coold down.
Jerall Holst Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2012.07.17 11:14:00 - [20] - Quote Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: I've soloed 2 surya with a standard assault forge gun. How? It's simple, shoot them a bit, stop shooting after they engage the repper. When they stop shining (meaning that the repper is turned off) resume shooting. Armor and shield reppers have a cooldown timer, kill them during the coold down. Good tip, I'll have to remember that one. Thanks!

Encharrion L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 104	Posted - 2012.07.17 11:43:00 - [21] - Quote Whether or not Damage Control Units are unaffected by stacking penalties makes a big difference to my tank. Can anyone confirm that Damage Control Units are unaffected by stacking penalties like in eve?
Tobaml 5	Posted - 2012.07.19 06:25:00 - [22] - Quote Thats beta. We have just those three types and they dont include an av vehicle. And of course you need a bit of tactic.


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