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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5700
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Posted - 2014.12.09 18:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:
The HMG already does lose to anyone with half a brain at 30+ meters.
.
Thats where you are wrong. You are so used to playing with your buddies XD. Of course 4+ people shooting at a sentinel at 30mts range is an easy win Lead. (XD) But on 1 on 1, PLAYER VS PLAYER of the same rarity equipped (say, PROTO) : 1st- Most Suits dont EVEN HAVE 30MTS RADAR to scan to give you a heads up the sentinel is coming. 2nd- If you stand still and trade fire with a heavy at 30mts You will loose , not only because of the POWER of the HMG but for their EHP values AND damage resistances. Which takes us to the 3rd point: The weapon is so accurate at this ranges that even while strafing you still get 75-85% of the damage done. The circle you need to keep your enemies in is to large and easy to use (at longer ranges). This is the thing: HMG is SO good at MED RANGES, that the ASSAULT HMG is not even considered anymore. And this IS ASSAULT HMG'S PURPOSE XD
This is a nice batch of disinformation you have here.
Let me set you straight on something because it's the only point you make worth a comment since nothing anyone says to the contrary about the HMG losing 50% of its DPS outright to dispersion and falloff at 31 meters will be acknowledged as relevant by you.
But back to the point:
The assault HMG isn't used because you can't beat anyone with it 1v1 except in edge cases. The weapon is utter trash in it's current incarnation. Running a standard assault rifle works better.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5701
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Posted - 2014.12.09 19:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
This is a nice batch of disinformation you have here.
Let me set you straight on something because it's the only point you make worth a comment since nothing anyone says to the contrary about the HMG losing 50% of its DPS outright to dispersion and falloff at 31 meters will be acknowledged as relevant by you.
But back to the point:
The assault HMG isn't used because you can't beat anyone with it 1v1 except in edge cases. The weapon is utter trash in it's current incarnation. Running a standard assault rifle works better.
Thats NOT the point at all.The Point is that HMG's are too effective outside their Optimal range.Same as SCR Rifles used to, by preforming better than SG's At CQ engagements? well yeah... Thats the point, IMO. LEad says that the issue is not the HMG. but i dont know what he thinks its broken here. And other people say its the Suit....
Putting the Sentinel in the CQC role to begin with was a mistake. Our happy fun times today I predicted in Beta when they made the HMG a point blank weapon (which makes no sense whatsoever).
But the blunt fact is CQC negates every disadvantage a heavy has. Period. end. stop.
It isn't the EHP, the cold fact is that CQC is the only place where Sentinels can overcome easily every inherent problem with the dropsuits. And in order to balance the HMG so that it didn't simply get stomped into the mud they had to ramp it up to 11.
The weapon IS the problem, the environment is the problem.
the lack of open area maps is a MAJOR problem for caldari balance overall. but the bizarre and incomprehensible decision to say "It's a heavy machinegun! It makes sense that it only works at spitball range! means that the damn thing will always balance on a razor's edge and a couple decimel changes ANYWHERE in the game can cause it to overperform or turn to utter crap.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5701
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Posted - 2014.12.09 20:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote: Putting the Sentinel in the CQC role to begin with was a mistake. Our happy fun times today I predicted in Beta when they made the HMG a point blank weapon (which makes no sense whatsoever).
But the blunt fact is CQC negates every disadvantage a heavy has. Period. end. stop.
It isn't the EHP, the cold fact is that CQC is the only place where Sentinels can overcome easily every inherent problem with the dropsuits. And in order to balance the HMG so that it didn't simply get stomped into the mud they had to ramp it up to 11.
The weapon IS the problem, the environment is the problem.
the lack of open area maps is a MAJOR problem for caldari balance overall. but the bizarre and incomprehensible decision to say "It's a heavy machinegun! It makes sense that it only works at spitball range! means that the damn thing will always balance on a razor's edge and a couple decimel changes ANYWHERE in the game can cause it to overperform or turn to utter crap.
ITs not the sentinel. ITs the HMG that has the CQ role.
That statement to this day makes no sense. HMG should never have been a CQC weapon to begin with.
But it definitely takes advantage of the fact that heavy drawbacks are meaningless in CQC. It's not JUST the HMG, and until you lot start recognizing that rather like scouts there are MULTIPLE contributing factors, not just a single issue this discussion will go nowhere.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5703
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Posted - 2014.12.09 21:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:ITs not the sentinel. ITs the HMG that has the CQ role. [/b]
That statement to this day makes no sense. HMG should never have been a CQC weapon to begin with. But it definitely takes advantage of the fact that heavy drawbacks are meaningless in CQC. It's not JUST the HMG, and until you lot start recognizing that rather like scouts there are MULTIPLE contributing factors, not just a single issue this discussion will go nowhere. It may make no sense to you, but King's dead on, IMO. And I think there are a total of 5 people that agree with you that "HMG should never have been a CQC weapon to begin with"...and that's why your proposals to change the sentinel/HMG were, for the most part, ignored. Rattati will balance the Sentinel / HMG issue out, of that I have no doubt. Let's give him a chance to look at this one and address it -- and in the meantime provide feedback on 1.10 -- shall we?
I'm still seeing that thread necro'd up every few days with more people supporting it.
Nice to see you think it's dumb, but I don't really care about you.
and no, king isn't dead on. You all are flailing about screaming about the symptoms rather than looking for a solution.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5704
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Posted - 2014.12.09 21:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:I don't think it's dumb, I simply disagree, and if you will look at my 3rd post in this thread, I proposed some changes....effectively reducing the DPS of the HMG or reducing the EHP of the Sentinel suit.
And how much would you like to wager that CCP Rattati will agree with me (and tweak one of those statistics) rather than you as to where the next round of nerfs to the HMG/Sentinel will occur?
I'll put 20M ISK up. You game?
yours is the low hanging fruit and wouldn't require coding to add a turn speed penalty to the HMG, Boundless HMG and MH-82 HMG.
Whenever actual "work" is involved CCP is notorious for trying to find an easy copout that will kinda patch the problem over.
no bet.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5708
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Posted - 2014.12.10 02:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
That's funny because the HMG is supposed to be a weapon AA doesn't work on.
If AA is actually helping it that goes a long way in explaining why it seems to be over performing.
I use a mouse so no AA. I don't have a pet logi and I don't equipment spam. I generally find the sentinel suits die easy.
But I do things the hard way instinctively.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5711
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Posted - 2014.12.10 13:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:Powerh8er wrote:HMG sentinels are one nerf from being total useless as their only role is to kill other dropsuits.
This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read. If for no other reason than he apparently hasn't figured out that Forge Guns Exist.
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not thrilled with the sentinel spam, and I think it's crap. I've been doing sentinels pretty much through all of the best and worst times. Unfortunately this is one of the worst.
I don't consider specific suit class spam because it's less difficult "Good times." Mostly the fact that people have figured out how to min/max the sentinels in their role via buddy logi farming, or equipment drops or the dreaded Three-HMG-Salute is pretty much a lot of what's going on.
If the maps had more useful open areas and things like hack points weren't all clustered around CQC areas there'd be more use for assaults. But as it stands, most of the game is played in building complexes now, with few rare exceptions.
Couple that with the fact that all of the rifles ate a nerf at the same time sentinels got their resists added and...
Yeah.
It's not JUST the HMG that's a problem. The sentinel's weaknesses and resist profiles would make more sense in open ground combat where they could be expected to eat more bullets, and be exposed more to the weapons that absolutely tear them to ribbons (like the charged sniper) rather than depending upon packs of shotty and RE scouts to crash into and break the line.
The HMG is an entirely different problem because it always has, and in my opinion always will, dance the razor's edge of OP and useless so long as it's exclusively a CQC weapon. So far in my opinion the burst is the only balanced version of the HMG right now because it's just as likely that the operator overheats and kills himself as it is that he kills someone else unless he has the heat timing PERFECT.
My primary objection in this thread is you seem to be latching on to symptoms of the problem rather than the problems themselves, and are looking in a direction that will not balance the HMG but utterly render it worthless. A lot of your suggestions have been tried in the past, and they turned out to be horrendous. My idea for a turn speed penalty would make a CQC weapon worthless but it provides a functional weak point for a Long Range suppression weapon.
I am of the opinion that the HMG is overall poorly designed, and I blame the community we had during beta for demanding it be turned into basically what we have now by popular accord as much as I am annoyed at the devs for listening. Because they gave it suicide range they had to remove the turn penalties because heavies were too easy... then they had to buff the damage... then buff it again...
then TTK became too short so they nerfed the rifles (my mind is boggled here).
But honestly I think that the battle rifles need to be returned to 1.whatever levels and have that nerf reverted, OR the HMG needs to have it's damage or RoF brought down by the average damage output of the battle rifles.
I'm not stupid enough to claim that effectively buffing sentinels by 25-35% on average vs. the weapons meant to drill them (when you combine the average nerfing with the resist bonuses) didn't create a problem. The math in my brain makes my head hurt because I can't think of a logical reason why they DID that.
This is a give and take thing. To be clear, I fully support the idea that yes, this is a problem. I simly disagree with you on the implementation of a solution. That solution HAS to take the form of either a nerf, or the eviction of the standard and potentially assault HMGs from CQC roles because sustained fire, lunatic DPS combined with a dozen other factors makes sentinels in CQC nigh unstoppable.
It's kinda like my take on scouts. It wasn't the EWAR, or the speed, or the hit glitching, or the REs or any other single factor that made them an overall problem. It was a synergy between multiple factors that combined into a big ball of insanity.
So please read my commentary WITHOUT the brain filter of "Breakin wants to protect the OPness of the Sentinel."
I think the sentinel would be fine if we had more open area maps. But since we don't, and CQC dominates, it's long past time to adjust either the role of the weapons, or buff the assaults by reverting the battle rifles, or a direct nerf to heavies.
I just want to see the above implemented incrementally. I also firmly believe that the sentinel should be considered a support suit best used in concert in support of an assault squad, not the go-to suit for murdering everything with impunity.
Does that clarify my stance here a bit?
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5711
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Posted - 2014.12.10 13:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:If I were 1,500HP Sentinel with a 900 DPS weapon, I'd expect my back to be my weakspot.
I'd never dream to ask for insta-spin; such an ability would allow to me to protect my weakspot too easily. Any unit who seeks to eliminate me should be angling for a flank, and it should be my highest priority to keep them from successfully getting behind me. Those who I catch should be obliterated. But when one does succeed in flanking me, I must accept my death. This is the only to justify my massive HP reserves and DPS. It doesn't balance out, unfortunately. What happens when you have a turn speed penalty on a CQC weapon is you always lose to the person who simply orbits around you and shoots you in the side of the head.
Literally the only people you can kill are the lemmings who run at you firing in a straight line or stand still. turn speed penalties can work to balance a ranged weapon so that while it is a beast at range, the instant you get into CQC you can strafe around it shooting it in the side of the head. Just don't let him get a bead on you before you hit 20m.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5711
|
Posted - 2014.12.10 13:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mortishai Belmont wrote:You go down wind of any assault based rifle around 60-70m in a heavy suit and then say that crap :/ I do all the time. with a forge gun.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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