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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
258
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 23:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Madrugars have highslots as their "weak" slot and Gunnlogi's have lowslots as their "weak" slot.
I'll call them armor and shield vehicles respectively since we don't have the other two races to muddy anything up.
In Highslots you can put: Scanners, CRUs, Damage mods, Nitrous, Aerial Boosters. Am I forgetting anything?
In lowslots you can put: CPU upgrade, PG upgrade, Ammo units. (formerly torque but they removed those which pushed me to making this post) That's it.
Armor vehicles are HEAVILY favored by having their high slots as their utility slot. A shield vehicle has literally 0 options that increase their effectiveness or utility.
This needs to be addressed.
My thoughts would be putting Dmods in low slots like they used to be (like they are in eve if I'm not mistaken). Returning torque modules (why were these removed?).
Does anyone else have any suggestions as far as ways to improve lowslots? Is there anyone who denies the usefulness of highslots over low slots? |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
258
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 00:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bump for views.
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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
75
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 00:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well considering half the maps have no supply depots a tank can get to the ammo caches might be useful. On my Maddy I have utility mods in the high slots, and on my Gunnlogi I have CPU and PG upgrade in low slots so I can fit a shield tank that makes all these butthurt AVers come to forums and quit. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
258
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 00:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Commander Tzu wrote:Well considering half the maps have no supply depots a tank can get to the ammo caches might be useful. On my Maddy I have utility mods in the high slots, and on my Gunnlogi I have CPU and PG upgrade in low slots so I can fit a shield tank that makes all these butthurt AVers come to forums and quit.
Thats another issue where both of our "utility" slots are taken up by cpu/pg upgrades.
Armor vehicles do not have this issue and are welcome to a myriad of options for the utility slots.
Ammo cache is meh. I don't mind returning to restock except on maps that dont have a friendly supply depot in a tank friendly spot, but then you just jump out, call a second tank, recall first tank, and move on with your life. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
258
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 01:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bump for a dev to clarify the nonsense.
Are Armor vehicles supposed to have an immense advantage in utility/damage? Because they are handed it for free on a silver platter. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
260
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bump until a dev posts. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
3274
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you're shield tanking, there is absolutely nothing worth getting in lowslots besides ammo. Everything you want is in the highs.
Overdrives too, but for some reason I can't restock them.
We used to have a time machine
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
260
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:If you're shield tanking, there is absolutely nothing worth getting in lowslots besides ammo. Everything you want is in the highs.
Overdrives too, but for some reason I can't restock them. Overdrives were removed fron the game bro.
So nows theres NOTHING for low slots. |
Yoma Carrim
Situation Normal all fraked up
123
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:If you're shield tanking, there is absolutely nothing worth getting in lowslots besides ammo. Everything you want is in the highs.
Overdrives too, but for some reason I can't restock them. Overdrives were removed fron the game bro. So nows theres NOTHING for low slots.
removed from the market yes, but I've still got a mlt overdrive in my inventory for some reason
When you turn a corner and find the entire enemy team.Oh Heck
Logi, Tanker, Heavy
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8702
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Damage mods should definitely go to low slots, vehicle and infantry. Why should the ones with the highest HP ceiling get the ability to gank and tank while the ones with the lowest HP ceiling have no option other than getting wrecked? This is why infantry is armor > shield right now.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Jason Pearson
3392
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Damage mods should definitely go to low slots, vehicle and infantry. Why should the ones with the highest HP ceiling get the ability to gank and tank while the ones with the lowest HP ceiling have no option other than getting wrecked? This is why infantry is armor > shield right now.
Disagree, Shields have better tank than Armor, Armor needs the extra damage to fight back.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8702
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods should definitely go to low slots, vehicle and infantry. Why should the ones with the highest HP ceiling get the ability to gank and tank while the ones with the lowest HP ceiling have no option other than getting wrecked? This is why infantry is armor > shield right now. Disagree, Shields have better tank than Armor, Armor needs the extra damage to fight back. Well since vehicles are different than infantry, I think the best solution would be active high slot modules = armor and passive low slot = shield. High slots would get better bonuses in bursts with a cooldown while low slots get passives that aren't as effective.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
260
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods should definitely go to low slots, vehicle and infantry. Why should the ones with the highest HP ceiling get the ability to gank and tank while the ones with the lowest HP ceiling have no option other than getting wrecked? This is why infantry is armor > shield right now. Disagree, Shields have better tank than Armor, Armor needs the extra damage to fight back. Uhhh that's flat wrong. You have better regen thats on full time. You have higher HP. A free regenerating buffer, and slightly weaker resists.
And to balance out your "weaker resists" you get 30% more damage, the option to be faster than any shield tank, active scanners, CRUs.
It's ridiculous that you get massive options for your utility slots and shield vehicles get 0 options. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
260
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bump. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
260
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bump. |
Jason Pearson
3398
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods should definitely go to low slots, vehicle and infantry. Why should the ones with the highest HP ceiling get the ability to gank and tank while the ones with the lowest HP ceiling have no option other than getting wrecked? This is why infantry is armor > shield right now. Disagree, Shields have better tank than Armor, Armor needs the extra damage to fight back. Uhhh that's flat wrong. You have better regen thats on full time. You have higher HP. A free regenerating buffer, and slightly weaker resists. And to balance out your "weaker resists" you get 30% more damage, the option to be faster than any shield tank, active scanners, CRUs. It's ridiculous that you get massive options for your utility slots and shield vehicles get 0 options.
Wow, so you bumped twice in half an hour, gg.
Anyways, "you, you, you", I'm a shield tanker, so none of this "you get this" or "you get that" bull, stop trying to kid someone with all his SP focused on being a better shield tanker.
Shield Tanks are stronger and able to stay on the map longer due to their ammo, most AV does less damage to it and it doesn't need reps, however most armor tank fits are Rep, Rep, Hardener, my Shield tank build has plenty of options, Damage mods, boosters, extenders, always a hardener though. In my lows I have ammo and an armor rep, I found out earlier I can fit a complex light armor rep on it without losing any shield effectiveness, win.
So, Armor Tanks need to have atleast one armor rep in their slot, and hardeners are a must, that's two slots. We need just a hardener to be useful as shield tankers, that's 1 slot mandatory, the rest you can fit however you want, that's four slots, the Armor tank has three spare and don't have enough CPU to make things work.
Gunnlogis seem to be for pushing, Madrugars seem to be support.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
261
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods should definitely go to low slots, vehicle and infantry. Why should the ones with the highest HP ceiling get the ability to gank and tank while the ones with the lowest HP ceiling have no option other than getting wrecked? This is why infantry is armor > shield right now. Disagree, Shields have better tank than Armor, Armor needs the extra damage to fight back. Uhhh that's flat wrong. You have better regen thats on full time. You have higher HP. A free regenerating buffer, and slightly weaker resists. And to balance out your "weaker resists" you get 30% more damage, the option to be faster than any shield tank, active scanners, CRUs. It's ridiculous that you get massive options for your utility slots and shield vehicles get 0 options. Wow, so you bumped twice in half an hour, gg. Anyways, "you, you, you", I'm a shield tanker, so none of this "you get this" or "you get that" bull, stop trying to kid someone with all his SP focused on being a better shield tanker. Shield Tanks are stronger and able to stay on the map longer due to their ammo, most AV does less damage to it and it doesn't need reps, however most armor tank fits are Rep, Rep, Hardener, my Shield tank build has plenty of options, Damage mods, boosters, extenders, always a hardener though. In my lows I have ammo and an armor rep, I found out earlier I can fit a complex light armor rep on it without losing any shield effectiveness, win. So, Armor Tanks need to have atleast one armor rep in their slot, and hardeners are a must, that's two slots. We need just a hardener to be useful as shield tankers, that's 1 slot mandatory, the rest you can fit however you want, that's four slots, the Armor tank has three spare and don't have enough CPU to make things work. Gunnlogis seem to be for pushing, Madrugars seem to be support. Pearson youve made a lot of good vehicle posts but this is ridiculous. Av is mostly irrelevent without a vehicle backing it up. Ammo is a non issue for missiles and rails, dunno about blasters.
Shield tanks "must" fit things too in their primary slots its dumb to put that as a complaint. You rep more, have higher hp, and a free refilling buffer. Who cares about the 20% resists.
And none of that takes into consideration that armor have awesome options for their utility slots and shield vehicles have 0 things to choose from. |
Jason Pearson
3398
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods should definitely go to low slots, vehicle and infantry. Why should the ones with the highest HP ceiling get the ability to gank and tank while the ones with the lowest HP ceiling have no option other than getting wrecked? This is why infantry is armor > shield right now. Disagree, Shields have better tank than Armor, Armor needs the extra damage to fight back. Uhhh that's flat wrong. You have better regen thats on full time. You have higher HP. A free regenerating buffer, and slightly weaker resists. And to balance out your "weaker resists" you get 30% more damage, the option to be faster than any shield tank, active scanners, CRUs. It's ridiculous that you get massive options for your utility slots and shield vehicles get 0 options. Wow, so you bumped twice in half an hour, gg. Anyways, "you, you, you", I'm a shield tanker, so none of this "you get this" or "you get that" bull, stop trying to kid someone with all his SP focused on being a better shield tanker. Shield Tanks are stronger and able to stay on the map longer due to their ammo, most AV does less damage to it and it doesn't need reps, however most armor tank fits are Rep, Rep, Hardener, my Shield tank build has plenty of options, Damage mods, boosters, extenders, always a hardener though. In my lows I have ammo and an armor rep, I found out earlier I can fit a complex light armor rep on it without losing any shield effectiveness, win. So, Armor Tanks need to have atleast one armor rep in their slot, and hardeners are a must, that's two slots. We need just a hardener to be useful as shield tankers, that's 1 slot mandatory, the rest you can fit however you want, that's four slots, the Armor tank has three spare and don't have enough CPU to make things work. Gunnlogis seem to be for pushing, Madrugars seem to be support. Pearson youve made a lot of good vehicle posts but this is ridiculous. Av is mostly irrelevent without a vehicle backing it up. Ammo is a non issue for missiles and rails, dunno about blasters. Shield tanks "must" fit things too in their primary slots its dumb to put that as a complaint. You rep more, have higher hp, and a free refilling buffer. Who cares about the 20% resists. And none of that takes into consideration that armor have awesome options for their utility slots and shield vehicles have 0 things to choose from.
For Shields, you need a hardener, that leaves you with 2 highs, 2 lows. For Armor, you need a hardener and a rep, that leaves you with 2 highs, 2 lows
I'm telling you if I wanted to fit utility mods on my Gunnlogi, I could and still be effective at taking out Maddys, infact I use a damage mod on one because you don't need much on the high side. You can choose from any of the utilities same as a Maddy, you just don't have to have two hardeners to be invincible all the time (like most people are doing.) You say who cares about 20% resists? I care about 20% resists, because that is atleast 360 damage off of a proto rail shot, meaning I can tear that tank a new one because I'm still alive.
Also AV can become relevant if CCP hurry up and put in ewar, things like webs to stop them in their tracks (or slow them down massively) so AVers can launch a barrage at the tank before they can escape.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
261
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
360 damage off a proto rail? What about 1k more of your main stat? What about a free regenerating 1k(how much is it now? I know its less now) buffer?
Lows are useles so a gunnlogi has two free slots and a madrugar has 4.
Again this isn't including higher HP, better regen, faster speed, etc.
It's a simple imbalance of utility slots that needs to be remedied. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4176
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
I support this thread, +1 to OP and would love an answer for why there aren't more low slot utility options.
It would be better if they had different variants of some of the high slot items which go in the low slots instead, or put missile damage modules in the low slots and hybrid turret damage mods in the highs, or even if they only shifted scanners and/or mCRUs to the low slots.
EDIT: Also, the movement strength of shield tanks is in acceleration, whereas armour tanks are better at straight-line speed. If there was a low slot speed module and a high slot acceleration module, that could improve things a lot as well. |
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Jason Pearson
3399
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:360 damage off a proto rail? What about 1k more of your main stat? What about a free regenerating 1k(how much is it now? I know its less now) buffer?
Lows are useles so a gunnlogi has two free slots and a madrugar has 4.
Again this isn't including higher HP, better regen, faster speed, etc.
It's a simple imbalance of utility slots that needs to be remedied.
Massive delay due to losing the buffer means the shield isn't reliable for madrugars.
Lows aren't useless and if you maintain that, you're not looking at what you can use there. You can utilise CPU and Powergrid modules to enhance your tank on shields, making you a lot stronger, you can also fit all three prototype turrets with ease (iirc most madrugars struggle to fit proto turrets, and if they want PG or CPU they sacrifice tank)
Where are you getting four from? What did I say, they need a hardener and they need an armor rep, that's 3 spare slots, and if they've got a proto turret chances are they're using one high and the other low for an extra rep or hardener. They have tougher fitting than we do.
Like I said, Gunnlogis for offensive, Madrugars for defense and support it seems, and the utilities can still be used on the Gunnlogi.
Also, ever fitted an Armor Gunnlogi? It works and ***** people up, :)
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
261
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
You said a hardener and a repairer left a madrugar with 2 highs 2 lows. I took your word for it.
I don't see how you keep denying it. Free buffer, extra 1k HP, faster tank, and two slots to fit any utility you can imagine.
You keep avoiding those topics because there's nothing to reply to it.
Also you can get a 25% reduction to shield depleted recharge for your madrugar in the shield core upgrades.
Armor vehicles have utility slots. Shield vehicles get none. This is an imbalance. |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
76
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well I guess they could make some stuff for low slots. Really though, I haven't had an issue with shield vs armor. I have shield and armor tanks maxed out and I think the benefit of getting more cpu/pg without affecting your shield tank shouldn't be dismissed. That being said, it is sorta interesting dual tanking a gunnlogi, armor rep and hardener on low slots. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
Commander Tzu wrote:Well I guess they could make some stuff for low slots. Really though, I haven't had an issue with shield vs armor. I have shield and armor tanks maxed out and I think the benefit of getting more cpu/pg without affecting your shield tank shouldn't be dismissed. That being said, it is sorta interesting dual tanking a gunnlogi, armor rep and hardener on low slots. I would happily sacrifice a small amount of tank for nitrous to flee any battle or a dmod to win any fight. CPU/pg lows are so dumb. They shouldnt exist really because if theyre necessary there might as well not be any low slots.
It all boils down to utility slots vs none. |
Jason Pearson
3399
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:You said a hardener and a repairer left a madrugar with 2 highs 2 lows. I took your word for it.
I don't see how you keep denying it. Free buffer, extra 1k HP, faster tank, and two slots to fit any utility you can imagine.
You keep avoiding those topics because there's nothing to reply to it.
Also you can get a 25% reduction to shield depleted recharge for your madrugar in the shield core upgrades.
Armor vehicles have utility slots. Shield vehicles get none. This is an imbalance.
My apologies on that, it's 5am and I don't know why I'm still awake lol. Two Highs, One Low****
I deny it because I play, and because I hammer Madrugars in a Gunnlogi and believe their role is defensive support. The extra 1k hp doesn't mean much, we've got 20% more resists, which on a gunnlogi with 4000 shields (minus about 15) is 800 shields, so in fairness the extra HP is about 200, not a lot considering.
You can get the same for Shield Tanks :) You can also have an Armor Buffer with Armor Rep, you can have quite a large tank on a Gunnlogi.
Like I said before, you have access to utilities, you need a hardener on a shield tank, that's all you need to be effective. Also "two slots to fit any utility you can imagine", tell me something, have you tried fitting a madrugar yet? Do it like a Gunnlogi? Fit a proto blaster, proto rep, hardener and extender (like I do with a gunnlogi) and tell me how you find fitting those utilities, I guarantee you're going to have a hard time.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
It's useless for shield vehicles because well you should know, if your shields are ever depleted, you're either fine or dead. It's not just extra HP like shields are for armor vehicles.And the HP difference is huge. The free shields plus better HP on armor stats.
I have not fit an armor vehicle since 1.7 but it doesn't really matter. Armor vehicles have options while shield vehicles do not. I see armor tanks with proto turrets nitrous and dmods all the time so I know its not impossible.
You also seem to think this is purely about tanks but its about all vehicles. Options vs no options. |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
243
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
message from Godin: Like you can even fit something in that second slot without having a **** fit......... Anyways, I agree. the more the merrier |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:message from Godin: Like you can even fit something in that second slot without having a **** fit......... Anyways, I agree. the more the merrier Even one slot for utility is infinitely better than no slots haha.
I like the attitude godin. |
knight of 6
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
844
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
bumping outside of corporate recruitment is against the rules. you might want to put some content in those bumps if you intend on keeping this thread alive until a dev posts.
as for the utilitys.
on my gunni I have a pg mod and a basic light armor rep, it's nice cause it keeps the tank almost completely self sufficient all it needs is a supply depot.
the utility lows on a gunni aren't terrible admittedly a hit and run guerrilla warfare tank would be expected to have some gank to it and I find it odd that damage mods aren't low slot items. but it's fine for now.
"God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon
Ko6, scout, tanker.
CLOSED BETA VET
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Jason Pearson
3399
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:It's useless for shield vehicles because well you should know, if your shields are ever depleted, you're either fine or dead. It's not just extra HP like shields are for armor vehicles.And the HP difference is huge. The free shields plus better HP on armor stats.
I have not fit an armor vehicle since 1.7 but it doesn't really matter. Armor vehicles have options while shield vehicles do not. I see armor tanks with proto turrets nitrous and dmods all the time so I know its not impossible.
You also seem to think this is purely about tanks but its about all vehicles. Options vs no options.
All I know is I'mma be ridiculous if I have more things for utilities, very ridiculous and then I'll be the guy on the forums demanding a nerf. Oh and that delay isn't important? I **** you not I almost died because of that delay, Armor tank chasing me down I keep weaving in and out of hills at 300 armor and no hardeners. Still wasn't ok, the shields kept me from dying and then they disappeared again and I managed to get behind something in the redline.
Oh and it matters a shitton, IF YOU DON'T EXPERIENCE SOMETHING, YOU CANNOT HAVE A VALID OPINION ON IT. So go and fit an armor tank. And dude, running a Scanner, Hardener, Booster just for you, am not going to die, same as my other fits, I've got utilities :) And Ammo and an Armor Rep.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:bumping outside of corporate recruitment is against the rules. you might want to put some content in those bumps if you intend on keeping this thread alive until a dev posts.
as for the utilitys.
on my gunni I have a pg mod and a basic light armor rep, it's nice cause it keeps the tank almost completely self sufficient all it needs is a supply depot.
the utility lows on a gunni aren't terrible admittedly a hit and run guerrilla warfare tank would be expected to have some gank to it and I find it odd that damage mods aren't low slot items. but it's fine for now.
Let mods worry about rules.
The utility lows on a gunnlogi are non existant so im not sure how they "aren't terrible."
As far as a light armor rep, I'm not sure how that would be useful. If you ever dip into your armor youre probably dead. And if you survive, you likely need a supply depot for ammo which would repair your armor. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:It's useless for shield vehicles because well you should know, if your shields are ever depleted, you're either fine or dead. It's not just extra HP like shields are for armor vehicles.And the HP difference is huge. The free shields plus better HP on armor stats.
I have not fit an armor vehicle since 1.7 but it doesn't really matter. Armor vehicles have options while shield vehicles do not. I see armor tanks with proto turrets nitrous and dmods all the time so I know its not impossible.
You also seem to think this is purely about tanks but its about all vehicles. Options vs no options. All I know is I'mma be ridiculous if I have more things for utilities, very ridiculous and then I'll be the guy on the forums demanding a nerf. Oh and that delay isn't important? I **** you not I almost died because of that delay, Armor tank chasing me down I keep weaving in and out of hills at 300 armor and no hardeners. Still wasn't ok, the shields kept me from dying and then they disappeared again and I managed to get behind something in the redline. Oh and it matters a shitton, IF YOU DON'T EXPERIENCE SOMETHING, YOU CANNOT HAVE A VALID OPINION ON IT. So go and fit an armor tank. And dude, running a Scanner, Hardener, Booster just for you, am not going to die, same as my other fits, I've got utilities :) And Ammo and an Armor Rep.
I've never had an experience where I dipped into my armor where I wasn't either 100% fine or dead. I never even wasted the points on depleted delay.
And I can see armor vehicles with more HP than me. Nitrous mods, and dmods. I know it can be done because people are doing it. If you Target a tank it will tell you if they have a dmod active.
Utility vs no utility. |
Jason Pearson
3399
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:50:00 -
[33] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:It's useless for shield vehicles because well you should know, if your shields are ever depleted, you're either fine or dead. It's not just extra HP like shields are for armor vehicles.And the HP difference is huge. The free shields plus better HP on armor stats.
I have not fit an armor vehicle since 1.7 but it doesn't really matter. Armor vehicles have options while shield vehicles do not. I see armor tanks with proto turrets nitrous and dmods all the time so I know its not impossible.
You also seem to think this is purely about tanks but its about all vehicles. Options vs no options. All I know is I'mma be ridiculous if I have more things for utilities, very ridiculous and then I'll be the guy on the forums demanding a nerf. Oh and that delay isn't important? I **** you not I almost died because of that delay, Armor tank chasing me down I keep weaving in and out of hills at 300 armor and no hardeners. Still wasn't ok, the shields kept me from dying and then they disappeared again and I managed to get behind something in the redline. Oh and it matters a shitton, IF YOU DON'T EXPERIENCE SOMETHING, YOU CANNOT HAVE A VALID OPINION ON IT. So go and fit an armor tank. And dude, running a Scanner, Hardener, Booster just for you, am not going to die, same as my other fits, I've got utilities :) And Ammo and an Armor Rep. I've never had an experience where I dipped into my armor where I wasn't either 100% fine or dead. I never even wasted the points on depleted delay. And I can see armor vehicles with more HP than me. Nitrous mods, and dmods. I know it can be done because people are doing it. If you Target a tank it will tell you if they have a dmod active. Utility vs no utility.
But I'm using utilities at no sacrifice to my tank. Damage mods on my rails, scanners on my blasters etc and still stomping armor tanks.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
|
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
I dunk on armor tanks as well because I'm better than them and in a squad. I also get dunked on when someone of equal skills finds me. That's not the issue.
The issue is armor vehicles have utility options while having the better tank. As in ehp.
And again this is NOT about just tanks. It's an imbalance across all 3 vehicle types. |
Jason Pearson
3399
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I dunk on armor tanks as well because I'm better than them and in a squad. I also get dunked on when someone of equal skills finds me. That's not the issue.
The issue is armor vehicles have utility options while having the better tank. As in ehp.
And again this is NOT about just tanks. It's an imbalance across all 3 vehicle types.
But it has an effect on Tanks, which must not be hidden. Armor tanks have requirements in place that Shield tanks don't need, like the fact we don't need any reps, we can also get more ammo and armor tanking abilities in the low slots, which makes more eHP.
You cannot discount it, a Gunnlogi would be the only tank to use because it doesn't need reps, has better hardeners, has INSTANT health regeneration through boosters, can stick on an Armor Rep, can have double the ammo capacity, and now I can place a damage mod instead of ammo because my missiles didn't destroy maddies in a single clip fast enough.
I don't see any need to transfer current things over, I could see a use in nanofibres being brought back for lows, but nothing needs to be taken from highs to make lows better.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
|
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I dunk on armor tanks as well because I'm better than them and in a squad. I also get dunked on when someone of equal skills finds me. That's not the issue.
The issue is armor vehicles have utility options while having the better tank. As in ehp.
And again this is NOT about just tanks. It's an imbalance across all 3 vehicle types. But it has an effect on Tanks, which must not be hidden. Armor tanks have requirements in place that Shield tanks don't need, like the fact we don't need any reps, we can also get more ammo and armor tanking abilities in the low slots, which makes more eHP. You cannot discount it, a Gunnlogi would be the only tank to use because it doesn't need reps, has better hardeners, has INSTANT health regeneration through boosters, can stick on an Armor Rep, can have double the ammo capacity, and now I can place a damage mod instead of ammo because my missiles didn't destroy maddies in a single clip fast enough. I don't see any need to transfer current things over, I could see a use in nanofibres being brought back for lows, but nothing needs to be taken from highs to make lows better. Ammo does not matter. It's never once been an issue for me once.
The fact that you keep bringing up armor in lows for gunnlogis just goes to show armor vehicles are better.
The only difference between shield mods and armor mods is boosters. In every other single aspect armor vehicles have the better end of the stick. Most of my gunnlogi fits don't fit boosters because i need a dmod to be competitive.
Utility vs no utility. Options vs no options. |
Jason Pearson
3400
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I dunk on armor tanks as well because I'm better than them and in a squad. I also get dunked on when someone of equal skills finds me. That's not the issue.
The issue is armor vehicles have utility options while having the better tank. As in ehp.
And again this is NOT about just tanks. It's an imbalance across all 3 vehicle types. But it has an effect on Tanks, which must not be hidden. Armor tanks have requirements in place that Shield tanks don't need, like the fact we don't need any reps, we can also get more ammo and armor tanking abilities in the low slots, which makes more eHP. You cannot discount it, a Gunnlogi would be the only tank to use because it doesn't need reps, has better hardeners, has INSTANT health regeneration through boosters, can stick on an Armor Rep, can have double the ammo capacity, and now I can place a damage mod instead of ammo because my missiles didn't destroy maddies in a single clip fast enough. I don't see any need to transfer current things over, I could see a use in nanofibres being brought back for lows, but nothing needs to be taken from highs to make lows better. Ammo does not matter. It's never once been an issue for me once. The fact that you keep bringing up armor in lows for gunnlogis just goes to show armor vehicles are better. The only difference between shield mods and armor mods is boosters. In every other single aspect armor vehicles have the better end of the stick. Most of my gunnlogi fits don't fit boosters because i need a dmod to be competitive. Utility vs no utility. Options vs no options.
I have armor reps in my lows because I'm not an idiot, and I have ammo there because I stay out on the field without supply depots and dont recall my vehicle and then bring it out again full of ammo. Armor seriously doesn't have the better end of the stick at all, We tank so much better, we survive AV so much easier. I feel bad for Armor Tanks because Shield Tanks are better a lot of ways.
Also you keep refering to things like Damage Mods, Scanners and injectors like they're the most important options in the game, like they're a massive need not a bonus. Each tank needs incentives to be used. And lol, damage mod to stay competitive.
You have options, you just don't like them. Maybe you spec'd the wrong tank, why aren't you driving a Madrugar?
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
|
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I dunk on armor tanks as well because I'm better than them and in a squad. I also get dunked on when someone of equal skills finds me. That's not the issue.
The issue is armor vehicles have utility options while having the better tank. As in ehp.
And again this is NOT about just tanks. It's an imbalance across all 3 vehicle types. But it has an effect on Tanks, which must not be hidden. Armor tanks have requirements in place that Shield tanks don't need, like the fact we don't need any reps, we can also get more ammo and armor tanking abilities in the low slots, which makes more eHP. You cannot discount it, a Gunnlogi would be the only tank to use because it doesn't need reps, has better hardeners, has INSTANT health regeneration through boosters, can stick on an Armor Rep, can have double the ammo capacity, and now I can place a damage mod instead of ammo because my missiles didn't destroy maddies in a single clip fast enough. I don't see any need to transfer current things over, I could see a use in nanofibres being brought back for lows, but nothing needs to be taken from highs to make lows better. Ammo does not matter. It's never once been an issue for me once. The fact that you keep bringing up armor in lows for gunnlogis just goes to show armor vehicles are better. The only difference between shield mods and armor mods is boosters. In every other single aspect armor vehicles have the better end of the stick. Most of my gunnlogi fits don't fit boosters because i need a dmod to be competitive. Utility vs no utility. Options vs no options. I have armor reps in my lows because I'm not an idiot, and I have ammo there because I stay out on the field without supply depots and dont recall my vehicle and then bring it out again full of ammo. Armor seriously doesn't have the better end of the stick at all, We tank so much better, we survive AV so much easier. I feel bad for Armor Tanks because Shield Tanks are better a lot of ways. Also you keep refering to things like Damage Mods, Scanners and injectors like they're the most important options in the game, like they're a massive need not a bonus. Each tank needs incentives to be used. And lol, damage mod to stay competitive. You have options, you just don't like them. Maybe you spec'd the wrong tank, why aren't you driving a Madrugar? how is more main HP, faster repairs, faster tank, free buffer hp, and options for your utility slots the short end of the stick?
And caldari because caldari strong. |
Jason Pearson
3402
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:31:00 -
[39] - Quote
Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Eurydice Itzhak wrote:I dunk on armor tanks as well because I'm better than them and in a squad. I also get dunked on when someone of equal skills finds me. That's not the issue.
The issue is armor vehicles have utility options while having the better tank. As in ehp.
And again this is NOT about just tanks. It's an imbalance across all 3 vehicle types. But it has an effect on Tanks, which must not be hidden. Armor tanks have requirements in place that Shield tanks don't need, like the fact we don't need any reps, we can also get more ammo and armor tanking abilities in the low slots, which makes more eHP. You cannot discount it, a Gunnlogi would be the only tank to use because it doesn't need reps, has better hardeners, has INSTANT health regeneration through boosters, can stick on an Armor Rep, can have double the ammo capacity, and now I can place a damage mod instead of ammo because my missiles didn't destroy maddies in a single clip fast enough. I don't see any need to transfer current things over, I could see a use in nanofibres being brought back for lows, but nothing needs to be taken from highs to make lows better. Ammo does not matter. It's never once been an issue for me once. The fact that you keep bringing up armor in lows for gunnlogis just goes to show armor vehicles are better. The only difference between shield mods and armor mods is boosters. In every other single aspect armor vehicles have the better end of the stick. Most of my gunnlogi fits don't fit boosters because i need a dmod to be competitive. Utility vs no utility. Options vs no options. I have armor reps in my lows because I'm not an idiot, and I have ammo there because I stay out on the field without supply depots and dont recall my vehicle and then bring it out again full of ammo. Armor seriously doesn't have the better end of the stick at all, We tank so much better, we survive AV so much easier. I feel bad for Armor Tanks because Shield Tanks are better a lot of ways. Also you keep refering to things like Damage Mods, Scanners and injectors like they're the most important options in the game, like they're a massive need not a bonus. Each tank needs incentives to be used. And lol, damage mod to stay competitive. You have options, you just don't like them. Maybe you spec'd the wrong tank, why aren't you driving a Madrugar? how is more main HP, faster repairs, faster tank, free buffer hp, and options for your utility slots the short end of the stick? And caldari because caldari strong.
By main HP you mean HP without actives, right? in which case don't count for much. Buffer HP - We have 20% resists Faster Repairs - They need to fill slots for these "faster repairs", and we both rep every second, only we suffer a delay if we go below a damage threshold, which is like 3 seconds. Faster movement - Faster acceleration and better handling
Also, Swarms, Missiles, Rails and Forges all have additional damage against Armor and are weaker against shields.
There is no short end of the stick really, each tank has different options and different fits, no need in taking from one tank to give to the other. Rather than make a thread about how Madrugars are obviously the best, which from my input is proof enough that it's more of an opinion based thing rather than a fact, you could be making suggestions for new modules for each type of slot which benefit vehicles in different ways :)
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
|
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
I asked for ideas on lowslots. I asked for dmods to go back into where they belong. Where they used to be. Where they are in eve.
The fact that you keep saying madrugars shows that my post goes above your head. It's a vehicle imbalance. Aerial boosters are needed on dropships. Mcrus are amazing on dropships. Dmods are needed on tanks. Nitrous are awesome for lavs and tanks.
Av is useless solo and either damage type works fine for assisting in a tank battle.
No gunnlogi is accelerates as hard as a maddy with nitrous. You keep trying to deny that armor tanks have hiher ehp which is flat out wrong. But this isn't my issue.
Utility and options vs none. |
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Lorhak Gannarsein
701
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 09:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sorry, but I agree with Pearson.
Aerial boosters are far less relevant than they once were, so not necessary. A hardener is necessary. MCRUs are useful, but not really game changing, considering the speed with which a DS can redeploy troops without need for inboard spawning.
A swarm isn't useful against a Gunnlogi, even in tank v tank. It gives at best a marginal increase to DPS. Forge guns are viable against both types.
You're right, they don't. Fit one - it's not hard, and you don't actually need to sacrifice anything. You don't actually need two hardeners; I only run it on my rail because everyone else does, and I need to. A nitrous is irrelevant in those encounters.
Armour tanks have higher base EHP, true, but he's arguing that it's negligible at best, which is true. Furthermore, that extra 20% resist means we have higher burst EHP, so when it matters, we're tougher.
You want a scanner? Fit one.
Damage mod + hardener + scanner, and you sacrifice nothing.
Assuming, of course, that you're actually using the scanner to outflank...
ALSO PEARSON. GET ONLINE. I NEED SOMEONE TO HELP ME FIGHT NYAIN TANKSTOMPS.
>Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.
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Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
84
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 09:27:00 -
[42] - Quote
i miss my heatsink modules where i could put out ridiculos dps befor overheat
i think a heat sink should have same fitting and bonus as damage mods.
30% reduction to heatcost.
and have same times and damge mod.
blaster maddy with heatsink/damage mod in highs = win |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
744
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 09:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Here's how it should be...
HIGH SLOTS: -Shield Modules -Active Non-Tanking Modules
LOW SLOTS: -Armor Modules -Passive Non-Tanking Modules
/thread
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
701
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 09:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:i miss my heatsink modules where i could put out ridiculos dps befor overheat
i think a heat sink should have same fitting and bonus as damage mods.
30% reduction to heatcost.
and have same times and damge mod.
blaster maddy with heatsink/damage mod in highs = win
And fit in the lows :P
Otherwise I'd have to agree with Eurydice.
>Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 17:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Sorry, but I agree with Pearson.
Aerial boosters are far less relevant than they once were, so not necessary. A hardener is necessary. MCRUs are useful, but not really game changing, considering the speed with which a DS can redeploy troops without need for inboard spawning.
A swarm isn't useful against a Gunnlogi, even in tank v tank. It gives at best a marginal increase to DPS. Forge guns are viable against both types.
You're right, they don't. Fit one - it's not hard, and you don't actually need to sacrifice anything. You don't actually need two hardeners; I only run it on my rail because everyone else does, and I need to. A nitrous is irrelevant in those encounters.
Armour tanks have higher base EHP, true, but he's arguing that it's negligible at best, which is true. Furthermore, that extra 20% resist means we have higher burst EHP, so when it matters, we're tougher.
You want a scanner? Fit one.
Damage mod + hardener + scanner, and you sacrifice nothing.
Assuming, of course, that you're actually using the scanner to outflank...
ALSO PEARSON. GET ONLINE. I NEED SOMEONE TO HELP ME FIGHT NYAIN TANKSTOMPS.
The fact that armor vehicles have all these options for their utility slot while a shield vehicle has to sacrifice mad eHP for them is the whole point. Utility should be given to both, or neither.
Dmods specifically need to go where the belong in lore. Which is low slots. In all reality they just need to transfer their slot layout from eve to dust and everything would be fine. Everyone would have options for utility and life would be good.
EDIT: And pro swarms do between a third and a half of my gunnlogi's HP when I don't have modules up so I'd just like to say that they do perfectly fine in assisting battles. |
KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
905
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:12:00 -
[46] - Quote
Good discussion, module slots really define vehicles roles.
Unfortunately that means that in practice either shield or armor tanks have no realistic access to one kind on supportive modules (scanners, damamods, extra ammo).
Probably you guys don't appreciate it but I still link here an idea on Vehicle Equipment slot layer (already locked thread)
Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance?
The fix:
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:25:00 -
[47] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Good discussion, module slots really define vehicles roles. Unfortunately that means that in practice either shield or armor tanks have no realistic access to one kind on supportive modules (scanners, damamods, extra ammo). Probably you guys don't appreciate it but I still link here an idea on Vehicle Equipment slot layer (already locked thread) Quickly skimming that thread and I like the idea of an equipment slot BUT
It would leave Dmods to one vehicle type or the other and without other utility being exclusive to the other type it would be even more unfair.
I'm sure theres a way to make it work though.
So I +1 your idea of "equipment" slots but I doubt that is the route they will take. |
Jason Pearson
3441
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:30:00 -
[48] - Quote
Wait, wouldn't removing things in the highs slots technically mean we're nerfing armor vehicles?
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
|
TheBLAZZED
VENGEANCE FOR HIRE
145
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lol... I would support this thread if maddies didn't have the CPU issue they do. Gunnies have to have a draw back. Right now,they are faster( acceleration wise) more nimble( turning wise) and have no problem fitting whatever they want because they have the option of expanding their CPU or power grid. they also do not have to fit a repper because they have one built in sense nothing damages past their threshold with the exception of a forge gun or raiIturret. I drive both, its obvious you only drive the shield version of Tanks.
"E" For effort but "F" for gathering information |
TheBLAZZED
VENGEANCE FOR HIRE
145
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:41:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Wait, wouldn't removing things in the highs slots technically mean we're nerfing armor vehicles? Yes, yes it would. |
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pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1417
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Commander Tzu wrote:Well considering half the maps have no supply depots a tank can get to the ammo caches might be useful. On my Maddy I have utility mods in the high slots, and on my Gunnlogi I have CPU and PG upgrade in low slots so I can fit a shield tank that makes all these butthurt AVers come to forums and quit.
dude I only have 2 fits that require both cpu and pg upgrades and that's only because I have 2 gunner seats on them . my fits that don't have gunner seats all only need an enhances pg upgrade at most and I run all complex mods in the highs.
Its gone from suck .....to blow
level 1 forum warrior
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Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
TheBLAZZED wrote:Lol... I would support this thread if maddies didn't have the CPU issue they do. Gunnies have to have a draw back. Right now,they are faster( acceleration wise) more nimble( turning wise) and have no problem fitting whatever they want because they have the option of expanding their CPU or power grid. they also do not have to fit a repper because they have one built in sense nothing damages past their threshold with the exception of a forge gun or raiIturret. I drive both, its obvious you only drive the shield version of Tanks.
"E" For effort but "F" for gathering information
Uhh madrugars are faster and have three times the acceleration with nitrous. So thats wrong.
There's no way you have enough SP to drive a fully fitted version of both. Thats well over 30m sp.
I'm at 15m and I haven't capped my turret missile skills yet.
None of this is relevant to the issue though which is Armor VEHICLES (not tanks you dimwit) have options while shield VEHICLES (not gunnlogis) do not. |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 18:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Wait, wouldn't removing things in the highs slots technically mean we're nerfing armor vehicles?
They removed the only lowslot utility module (torque module) from the game.
Armor vehicles can learn to share =P |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 20:14:00 -
[54] - Quote
Any other input/insight?
There's no real defense for one vehicle type having access to utility while another doesn't but where can the balance be found?
What does eve follow for utility slots? What would a shield ship put in its lows? an armor ship in its highs? |
Eurydice Itzhak
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
262
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 01:16:00 -
[55] - Quote
Visibility bump. This injustice can not go un attended. |
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