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1.4 Swarm Launcher, running the numbers.

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Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 705	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:30:00 - [1] - Quote This is a small exercise to shed some clarity on what the SL will be capable of in v1.4 of Uprising. We're going to assume the following relevant equipment and skills: Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher, Proficiency II, two Complex Damage Boosters. 3305=1650 is our base damage. Damage bonus is around 24% with stacking penalty, roughly. Making it 25% for ease of arithmetic. This gives us 2062.5 damage per salvo. Shield effectiveness is 80%, 2062.5 becomes 1650 damage. Armor effectiveness is 135%, 2062.5 becomes 2784.375 damage. Lock on at Op V is 1.05s, delay before acquiring following locks is 0.3. Clip size is 3. 0.0s Start lock #1 1.05s Fire #1 1.35s Start lock #2 2.4s Fire #2 2.7s Start lock #3 3.75s Fire #3 The important part is all 3 salvos offloaded in 3.75 seconds. In 3.75 seconds you have sent off a trio of swarms that will strike within 4 seconds of each other in most cases. Shield damage: 4950 within 4 seconds Armour damage: 7353.125 within 4 seconds* Pretty nasty, huh? This isn't even a max damage thought-experiment. SP costs also aren't that exorbitant, about 800k for the Swarms and 600k for Handheld Weaponry, about 1.5 mil SP in all. But at least DPS is down, right? ...Right? Nope. Courtesy of the work done by Absolute Idiom II here we can see overall DPS is up by 52%. Burst damage more than doubled. DPS up by 52%. Was already a solid weapon before. Any chance this could be addressed in some capacity before it goes live?
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1785	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:33:00 - [2] - Quote Pretty sure wiyrkomi SL is 6 rockets is it not? 4 std 5 adv and 6 pro
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 705	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:35:00 - [3] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Pretty sure wiyrkomi SL is 6 rockets is it not? 4 std 5 adv and 6 pro Oh, you might be right. Will need to verify. If so I've understated the damage figures which are already pretty incredible. Edit: to the post below, yes N1ck, that's been accounted for. Even with the earlier reload DPS checks out as being 52% higher than our current Swarm Launcher.
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 1140	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:35:00 - [4] - Quote only going to have 3 in the clip now.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 754	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:36:00 - [5] - Quote How does this compare to the forge gun, out of legit curiosity? I'd like to see how the two main AV weapons compare to each other.
Charlotte O'Dell 0uter.Heaven 1061	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:36:00 - [6] - Quote Bump
Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 35	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:46:00 - [7] - Quote Ppl keep saying its going to have a smaller clipsize but nowhere in the patch notes it says that. All it says is that the skill is changing but it doesn't mean the clip size is getting smaller. Unless it is somewhere else like a devblog or something. And yes I am speculating like you are speculating.
echo47 Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:46:00 - [8] - Quote Poplo Furuya wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Pretty sure wiyrkomi SL is 6 rockets is it not? 4 std 5 adv and 6 pro Oh, you might be right. Will need to verify. If so I've understated the damage figures which are already pretty incredible. Edit: yep, it's 6 missiles... re-doing calculations. Edit: to the post below, yes N1ck, that's been accounted for. Even with the earlier reload DPS checks out as being 52% higher than our current Swarm Launcher. You mean you didn't know how many rockets it had? So I take it you have never used one.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 754	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:47:00 - [9] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: Ppl keep saying its going to have a smaller clipsize but nowhere in the patch notes it says that. All it says is that the skill is changing but it doesn't mean the clip size is getting smaller. Unless it is somewhere else like a devblog or something. And yes I am speculating like you are speculating. currently the skill adds to clip size. it will no longer add to clip size. Thus the clip is shrinking.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7704	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:47:00 - [10] - Quote I think the most damning information though is how generally is the gap between launches on the users end? usually there is not always the convenience of retriggering instantly like so many other weapons have, there are often times that launcher operator has to duck or go hid or reposition elsewhere. However with the shot interval down from 2 seconds, this period of time from first to second launch regardless of the situation is far shorter than previously because the operator can easily just swap weapons sprint and throw as well as get back to re locking onto the target much quicker than before.

Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 705	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:55:00 - [11] - Quote echo47 wrote: Poplo Furuya wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Pretty sure wiyrkomi SL is 6 rockets is it not? 4 std 5 adv and 6 pro Oh, you might be right. Will need to verify. If so I've understated the damage figures which are already pretty incredible. Edit: yep, it's 6 missiles... re-doing calculations. Edit: to the post below, yes N1ck, that's been accounted for. Even with the earlier reload DPS checks out as being 52% higher than our current Swarm Launcher. You mean you didn't know how many rockets it had? So I take it you have never used one. I don't know about you but I don't count the number of missiles in each Swarm I fire to check they're all there. I also use ADV rather than PRO on the character that does use Swarms so I guess I slipped into using the ADV launcher's figures. My main's a Forge Gunner so doesn't need Swarms to fill in for AV.
Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 35	Posted - 2013.08.23 20:58:00 - [12] - Quote I may be mistaken but in chromosome there was no skill that gave you clipsize increase, the clipsize was determined by the level of the weapon ie. Mil, std, av and proto. So it could be the same now. Again speculating.
Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 186	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:01:00 - [13] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: I may be mistaken but in chromosome there was no skill that gave you clipsize increase, the clipsize was determined by the level of the weapon ie. Mil, std, av and proto. So it could be the same now. Again speculating. I don't see any mention of a change, so it may be safe to assume there isn't.
Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 35	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:05:00 - [14] - Quote And by that you mean running proto swarms with a clip size of 3 or 4 at the most?
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1787	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:06:00 - [15] - Quote I think the important part is that 3 swarms has enough alpha to kill almost any armor tank in about 5s, tanks are not scout suits... You can barely react in that amount of time.
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 707	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:11:00 - [16] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I think the important part is that 3 swarms has enough alpha to kill almost any armor tank in about 5s, tanks are not scout suits... You can barely react in that amount of time. Yeah, it's gonna murder armour HAVs. Shields also have it bad but might have leeway to survive the first alpha albeit barely. Conditions for HAV drivers are gonna be so terrible it ain't even funny.
Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 35	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:11:00 - [17] - Quote I think your not accounting for shield/armor resistance/weaknesses and/or resistance modules. (Not trolling)
Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 186	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:18:00 - [18] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: I think your not accounting for shield/armor resistance/weaknesses and/or resistance modules. (Not trolling) It's not, but without proficiency trained at all with a single complex damage mod on a 30% resistance armor tank that's 2058 armor damage per volley. I'm not sure what the average tank has, but at these numbers one swarm user can put close to 6200 damage out in under 4 seconds.
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 707	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:22:00 - [19] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: I think your not accounting for shield/armor resistance/weaknesses and/or resistance modules. (Not trolling) Beyond the SL's own figures as an explosive weapon I'm not, no. Becomes too variable at that stage so I stopped at the point where I'd presented the raw damage output of a fairly typical Swarm Launcher. One figure that can be used as an estimate. Give me a HAV fit or the relevant figures of one and I can try and work out what the damage will be with and without active modules running, or with modules activated after X hit. If you want, anyway. Just trying to give an advanced preview of what these things will actually do on the field.
Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 35	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:28:00 - [20] - Quote Promethius Franklin wrote: Seed Dren wrote: I think your not accounting for shield/armor resistance/weaknesses and/or resistance modules. (Not trolling) It's not, but without proficiency trained at all with a single complex damage mod on a 30% resistance armor tank that's 2058 armor damage per volley. I'm not sure what the average tank has, but at these numbers one swarm user can put close to 6200 damage out in under 4 seconds. Actually with no skills into it just proto is 1940. With 2 damage mods is 374 damage more.

Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 35	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:31:00 - [21] - Quote If you could start on this gunlogi fit I've seen most often. 5000 shields 1000 armor (rounding numbers and please only apply shield and armor resistance. You can do 1 adding mods later)
Casius Hakoke Molon Labe. League of Infamy 275	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:34:00 - [22] - Quote Thank you for the numbers. Unfortunately, its going to become even more brutal for tankers in the next month. I just don't understand why this buff couldn't wait till all AV/Vehicles were balanced in 1.5. Honestly in my experience, currently seconds are the difference between a dead tank and an alive tank. Once you get hit by the first swarm, I don't care what kind it is or how much damage it has done I always start to react and to withdraw. Hanging around in one area to long will almost always lead to a dead tank. Now unfortunately, those few precious seconds that HAV pilots or even dropship pilots needed/used to make a hasty retreat are going to be gone for us. I think the next month is going to show that seconds are what make the biggest difference. This is a massive boost to swarm alpha damage.
Kane Banned Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 9	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:35:00 - [23] - Quote I'm pretty damn sure the swarms armor damage is 120% not 135%.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5861	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:36:00 - [24] - Quote Kane Banned wrote: I'm pretty damn sure the swarms armor damage is 120% not 135%. CCP has stated it's 120% a number of times, but many people have tested it and it seems to be at 135% I don't know one way or the other, all I know is armor tankers are in for a world of hurt, considering all these maths are only assuming a single SL in the span of 4 seconds.
Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 189	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:38:00 - [25] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: Promethius Franklin wrote: Seed Dren wrote: I think your not accounting for shield/armor resistance/weaknesses and/or resistance modules. (Not trolling) It's not, but without proficiency trained at all with a single complex damage mod on a 30% resistance armor tank that's 2058 armor damage per volley. I'm not sure what the average tank has, but at these numbers one swarm user can put close to 6200 damage out in under 4 seconds. Actually with no skills into it just proto is 1940. With 2 damage mods is 374 damage more. Maybe my numbers are wrong. I have 330/missile @ 6 missiles w/ proto = 1980 + 35% for armor damage = 2673/volley before proficiency, tank resists or damage mods. Edit, that assumes the 35% number being used is correct and not just skewed user perception. If it's actually the 20% stated by CCP we end up at 2376.
calvin b Molon Labe. League of Infamy 348	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:39:00 - [26] - Quote If you visualize the SL launching volley after volley of death then you and I have the same Idea. I am going to wait a week after 1.5 drops to see if there is vehicles left before I skill into SL. I predict a huge drop in vehicle use because this weapon is going to be a beast to overcome. To all vehicle users you have my sympathy. So you have around 4 weeks to skill up your suits because vehicles may not be viable after 1.5, just my opinion.
Kane Banned Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 9	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:39:00 - [27] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Kane Banned wrote: I'm pretty damn sure the swarms armor damage is 120% not 135%. CCP has stated it's 120% a number of times, but many people have tested it and it seems to be at 135% I don't know one way or the other, all I know is armor tankers are in for a world of hurt, considering all these maths are only assuming a single SL in the span of 4 seconds. I think tankers are mistaking high armor efficiency with most swarmers stacking 2-3 complex damage mods.
Soraya Xel New Eden's Most Wanted Top Men. 362	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:39:00 - [28] - Quote Given the number of tanks who are nearly 100% invulnerable to damage with the current balance system.... Totally in approval of this change. Anyone who thinks swarm folks can easily just drop three volleys off the chain at one time, when trying to combat being shot by a tank has never used swarms.
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 707	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:40:00 - [29] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: If you could start on this gunlogi fit I've seen most often. 5000 shields 1000 armor (rounding numbers and please only apply shield and armor resistance. You can do 1 adding mods later) Starting Shields = 5000 Hits to Shield = 1980 damage Hit #1, time since first hit is 0 seconds, shields drop to 3020. Hit #2, time since first hit is 1.35s, shields drop to 1040. Hit #3, time since first hit is 2.7s, shields drop to 0, remaining damage is 940. Converted by 135% becomes 1269. Armour is left at -269. Game Over.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5862	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:41:00 - [30] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Given the number of tanks who are nearly 100% invulnerable to damage with the current balance system.... Totally in approval of this change. Anyone who thinks swarm folks can easily just drop three volleys off the chain at one time, when trying to combat being shot by a tank has never used swarms. I do that exact thing with a forge gun, right in their face. I have trouble grasping how it's harder to fire from behind cover. :/

Casius Hakoke Molon Labe. League of Infamy 276	Posted - 2013.08.23 21:44:00 - [31] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Given the number of tanks who are nearly 100% invulnerable to damage with the current balance system.... Totally in approval of this change. Anyone who thinks swarm folks can easily just drop three volleys off the chain at one time, when trying to combat being shot by a tank has never used swarms. Why are you so close to the tank to have to worry about being shot by it? Get on a roof top like everyother AVer. Or better yet, sneak up on them, that's what I do when running my militia suit and AV grenades. Works every time.


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