DUST Search - Why is it more profitable to lose?

Bettie Boop 2100190003 wrote:

First things first, the risk vs. reward + time involved at the controller is ludicrous for AFK farmers

I understand what your saying, its not about punishing people for loosing. Its about rewarding the team that wins more significantly than the players that do nothing. If ISK were based off of WP or rank in a game it would make things much more interesting.

Basing it on rank for example, if there are 16 players on your team and those players must split 4.125 mil ISK so:

500,000 ISK
475,000 ISK
450,000 ISK
425,000 ISK
400,000 ISK
375,000 ISK
350,000 ISK
300,000 ISK
250,000 ISK
200,000 ISK
150,000 ISK
125,000 ISK
100,000 ISK
75,000 ISK
50,000 ISK
25,000 ISK

Yes you could lower it so first place gets _ _ _,_ _ _ ISK and it drops from there, but this gives a reasonable starting point.

Or basing it on War Points would give less specific numbers but they would be more closely tailored to what you did in each match. Here is one example of an Aprox value for WP, yes it scales and isn't a direct ratio:
3000 WP = 1000,000 ISK
2500 WP = 800,000 ISK
2000 WP = 600,000 ISK
1500 WP = 400,000 ISK
1000 WP = 200,000 ISK
0500 WP = 150,000 ISK
0250 WP = 100,000 ISK
0100 WP = 50,000 ISK
0000 WP = 0 ISK

With either of these or the current system if a +25% for winning and a -10% on ISK earned (there is no reason to do it for SP) in a match winning would become much more important to people. There would still be the people that AFK farm for ISK because they can make ISK and SP with 0 effort.

A simpler solution would be to kick people who are in the redline for more than 3 minutes.

Simple solution that gets rid of the ISK farmers camping in the MCC the entire match. It also stops redline snipers and a lot of other issues with the redline. Kicking them also gives no ISK.

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Kinky Burrito A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 122	Posted - 2013.08.04 18:24:00 - [1] - Quote I don't believe I've ever seen a game that gave out equal rewards to the winning and losing sides. Maybe if they gave people an incentive to actually win the match, we'd have less garbage matches where the enemy team just sits on a tower or in the red line and snipes the entire game, beginning to end? Every match I've played today has been like this.
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 362	Posted - 2013.08.04 18:27:00 - [2] - Quote I thought there was some kind of "contract bonus" or something? He is the core gamer, the bastard child of the casual and hardcore gamer. He invests the former's effort and cries when he doesn't get the latter's results. CrotchGrab 360 wrote: You're so philosophical. please adorn me with more pearls of wisdom.
Kinky Burrito A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 122	Posted - 2013.08.04 18:29:00 - [3] - Quote By the way, my boosters run out today and there is no way I am spending another penny on this game until I see some real effort to address issues like this one. Add the super shield recharge bug that's been going on for 2 months to that list. While you're at it, add in non functioning AV grenades. And invisible players. And players not rendering while looking through turret sights. And players shooting through walls. Etc, etc.
Kinky Burrito A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 122	Posted - 2013.08.04 18:31:00 - [4] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I thought there was some kind of "contract bonus" or something? He is the core gamer, the bastard child of the casual and hardcore gamer. He invests the former's effort and cries when he doesn't get the latter's results. CrotchGrab 360 wrote: You're so philosophical. please adorn me with more pearls of wisdom. Whatever that is, it is too minuscule to notice, and doesn't make up for the isk you save by not dying sitting on a tower. The only way to make people care is an SP bonus.
HYENAKILLER X TEAM SHINOBI 114	Posted - 2013.08.04 19:30:00 - [5] - Quote Lol. You guys are soft.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD 133	Posted - 2013.08.04 19:36:00 - [6] - Quote If you do better you get more ISK, it sounds like when you lose you probably get significantly more WP then the rest of your team so you get more ISK. While when you win, more of your team does better so the pay is more spread out.
Moonracer2000 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 619	Posted - 2013.08.04 19:43:00 - [7] - Quote I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when my team wins, which is worth more than ISK.
Mary Sedillo Pure Innocence. EoN. 192	Posted - 2013.08.04 19:46:00 - [8] - Quote Kinky Burrito wrote: I don't believe I've ever seen a game that gave out equal rewards to the winning and losing sides. Maybe if they gave people an incentive to actually win the match, we'd have less garbage matches where the enemy team just sits on a tower or in the red line and snipes the entire game, beginning to end? Every match I've played today has been like this. Its not more profitable to lose, its just people not wanting to lose ISK in a match that is already lost -- It is not fun nor fair to allow the winning team to completely camp the enemy spawns and suck at the teet of spawn kills. The opposing team does not OWE you there deaths. You are not entitled to them.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 857	Posted - 2013.08.04 19:51:00 - [9] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: If you do better you get more ISK, it sounds like when you lose you probably get significantly more WP then the rest of your team so you get more ISK. While when you win, more of your team does better so the pay is more spread out. Yeah, I don't understand why they don't give "bonus pay" for winning at all. I think it is funny that when my team loses and I am still 2nd or 3rd overall for WP that I am being paid very well for essentially shepherding the bluedot lambs to the slaughter. Go ahead, go die little bluedot sheeple.
Kinky Burrito A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 127	Posted - 2013.08.04 19:59:00 - [10] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Kinky Burrito wrote: I don't believe I've ever seen a game that gave out equal rewards to the winning and losing sides. Maybe if they gave people an incentive to actually win the match, we'd have less garbage matches where the enemy team just sits on a tower or in the red line and snipes the entire game, beginning to end? Every match I've played today has been like this. Its not more profitable to lose, its just people not wanting to lose ISK in a match that is already lost -- It is not fun nor fair to allow the winning team to completely camp the enemy spawns and suck at the teet of spawn kills. The opposing team does not OWE you there deaths. You are not entitled to them. This is not about games that are already lost. This is what people set out to do from the beginning of a match because there is no incentive to win. I myself push objectives, go 20-5 in an advanced suit, and maybe come out 20k isk ahead whereas they make 150k+ for doing nothing.

calvin b Molon Labe. League of Infamy 200	Posted - 2013.08.04 20:01:00 - [11] - Quote Just stop, you want to punish a player for losing. Who do you do work for the freakin government? One player cannot turn the tide on any battle, its freakin impossible. If the other side is stacked and working as a team and they are playing some good players but there gear is not on the same level and there not running squads they are going to lose. That is why half of your team is either AFK or being a sniper. They are just trying to do what is best for them, you cant get upset because they refuse to play by your rules. This game has enough problems to make people quit, let them be and deal with it. Until the game is fixed, and people can have fun, this will be an ongoing issue. Stop trying to be a Dust general and just deal with it and find ways to have fun.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 114	Posted - 2013.08.04 20:04:00 - [12] - Quote Its not that hard to understand "fight for me we will give you X amount of Isk" You fight and get X amount of Isk, that is how contracts work If you die, less of that isk will actually translate into profit Once we get player contracts they will pay more money to those who are known winners, but if said known winner has a poor game he still gets the contract money but his reputation might get damaged.
Nick nugg3t Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.08.04 20:53:00 - [13] - Quote Moonracer2000 wrote: I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when my team wins, which is worth more than ISK. Lol
Bettie Boop 2100190003 A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 90	Posted - 2013.08.04 20:55:00 - [14] - Quote First things first, the risk vs. reward + time involved at the controller is ludicrous for AFK farmers I understand what your saying, its not about punishing people for loosing. Its about rewarding the team that wins more significantly than the players that do nothing. If ISK were based off of WP or rank in a game it would make things much more interesting. Basing it on rank for example, if there are 16 players on your team and those players must split 4.125 mil ISK so: 500,000 ISK 475,000 ISK 450,000 ISK 425,000 ISK 400,000 ISK 375,000 ISK 350,000 ISK 300,000 ISK 250,000 ISK 200,000 ISK 150,000 ISK 125,000 ISK 100,000 ISK 75,000 ISK 50,000 ISK 25,000 ISK Yes you could lower it so first place gets _ _ _,_ _ _ ISK and it drops from there, but this gives a reasonable starting point. Or basing it on War Points would give less specific numbers but they would be more closely tailored to what you did in each match. Here is one example of an Aprox value for WP, yes it scales and isn't a direct ratio: 3000 WP = 1000,000 ISK 2500 WP = 800,000 ISK 2000 WP = 600,000 ISK 1500 WP = 400,000 ISK 1000 WP = 200,000 ISK 0500 WP = 150,000 ISK 0250 WP = 100,000 ISK 0100 WP = 50,000 ISK 0000 WP = 0 ISK With either of these or the current system if a +25% for winning and a -10% on ISK earned (there is no reason to do it for SP) in a match winning would become much more important to people. There would still be the people that AFK farm for ISK because they can make ISK and SP with 0 effort. A simpler solution would be to kick people who are in the redline for more than 3 minutes. Simple solution that gets rid of the ISK farmers camping in the MCC the entire match. It also stops redline snipers and a lot of other issues with the redline. Kicking them also gives no ISK.
Mary Sedillo Pure Innocence. EoN. 193	Posted - 2013.08.04 21:00:00 - [15] - Quote Bettie Boop 2100190003 wrote: First things first, the risk vs. reward + time involved at the controller is ludicrous for AFK farmers I understand what your saying, its not about punishing people for loosing. Its about rewarding the team that wins more significantly than the players that do nothing. If ISK were based off of WP or rank in a game it would make things much more interesting. Basing it on rank for example, if there are 16 players on your team and those players must split 4.125 mil ISK so: 500,000 ISK 475,000 ISK 450,000 ISK 425,000 ISK 400,000 ISK 375,000 ISK 350,000 ISK 300,000 ISK 250,000 ISK 200,000 ISK 150,000 ISK 125,000 ISK 100,000 ISK 75,000 ISK 50,000 ISK 25,000 ISK Yes you could lower it so first place gets _ _ _,_ _ _ ISK and it drops from there, but this gives a reasonable starting point. Or basing it on War Points would give less specific numbers but they would be more closely tailored to what you did in each match. Here is one example of an Aprox value for WP, yes it scales and isn't a direct ratio: 3000 WP = 1000,000 ISK 2500 WP = 800,000 ISK 2000 WP = 600,000 ISK 1500 WP = 400,000 ISK 1000 WP = 200,000 ISK 0500 WP = 150,000 ISK 0250 WP = 100,000 ISK 0100 WP = 50,000 ISK 0000 WP = 0 ISK With either of these or the current system if a +25% for winning and a -10% on ISK earned (there is no reason to do it for SP) in a match winning would become much more important to people. There would still be the people that AFK farm for ISK because they can make ISK and SP with 0 effort. A simpler solution would be to kick people who are in the redline for more than 3 minutes. Simple solution that gets rid of the ISK farmers camping in the MCC the entire match. It also stops redline snipers and a lot of other issues with the redline. Kicking them also gives no ISK. ISK rewards system = GOOD Redline kick idea = BAD
Your Evil Clone Rise Of The Phe0nix 5	Posted - 2013.08.04 21:04:00 - [16] - Quote calvin b wrote: Just stop, you want to punish a player for losing. Who do you do work for the freakin government? One player cannot turn the tide on any battle, its freakin impossible. If the other side is stacked and working as a team and they are playing some good players but there gear is not on the same level and there not running squads they are going to lose. That is why half of your team is either AFK or being a sniper. They are just trying to do what is best for them, you cant get upset because they refuse to play by your rules. This game has enough problems to make people quit, let them be and deal with it. Until the game is fixed, and people can have fun, this will be an ongoing issue. Stop trying to be a Dust general and just deal with it and find ways to have fun. 1st He can get upset and obviously is, Its understandable. 2nd The A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. guys could run their proto gear in pub matches and change the tide of a single battle. And they have. 3rd This isnt a "punish the loosing side" thread its "there is no incentive to win" thread. You should also know that the proper server for AFK farming is the Oceania server... Let the people on the other servers play a real game.
Mary Sedillo Pure Innocence. EoN. 193	Posted - 2013.08.04 21:06:00 - [17] - Quote Kinky Burrito wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Kinky Burrito wrote: I don't believe I've ever seen a game that gave out equal rewards to the winning and losing sides. Maybe if they gave people an incentive to actually win the match, we'd have less garbage matches where the enemy team just sits on a tower or in the red line and snipes the entire game, beginning to end? Every match I've played today has been like this. Its not more profitable to lose, its just people not wanting to lose ISK in a match that is already lost -- It is not fun nor fair to allow the winning team to completely camp the enemy spawns and suck at the teet of spawn kills. The opposing team does not OWE you there deaths. You are not entitled to them. This is not about games that are already lost. This is what people set out to do from the beginning of a match because there is no incentive to win. I myself push objectives, go 20-5 in an advanced suit, and maybe come out 20k isk ahead whereas they make 150k+ for doing nothing. Pics or it didn't happen.
Bettie Boop 2100190003 A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 91	Posted - 2013.08.04 21:08:00 - [18] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: ISK rewards system = GOOD Redline kick idea = BAD I said simpler, not necessary better. Three minutes is a LONG time in this game, you could make it 3 min if you hold at least 34%% of the objectives, (which means you would need 2 in a 3 objective map) and prevents farming clones at a letter. If you hold under that amount make it 10 minutes. If your redlined, the game shouldnt last 10 minutes. This obviously would not work for Domination where its all or nothing.
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 436	Posted - 2013.08.04 21:14:00 - [19] - Quote Isn't it based on your opponets gear that they're using? If you lose odds are most there team is in proto which means you get more isk because of the opponets gear
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 873	Posted - 2013.08.04 21:24:00 - [20] - Quote I don't know about that...i spend 1,000,000 isk trying to fight a Pubstomping squad the other day, i finish 1st in my team with 1400 wp... and i got rewarded with 250,000 isk..WoOw!! The following battle i sniped in the red-line, killed a couple of guys.. and make 200,000 isk profit. It is more profitable to DON'T try...or to be more precise.. to DON'T PLAY.

cedz636 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 83	Posted - 2013.08.05 00:31:00 - [21] - Quote There should definitely be an ISK bonus to the winning team, without a doubt. There should be a ranking system in place where a purse of ISK is divided between the 16 mercs on a team. 1st place on your team in WP gets the biggest cut, and 16th gets the smallest cut. Maybe the winning team has a 5mil ISK purse to split, and the losing team gets a 3 mil ISK purse to split. That way, when you're on the winning team, even if you find yourself in the bottom 8, you still get more ISK than the middle of the pack on the losing team. This will in no way stop AFKers from doing their thing, but it will give the AFKers more incentive to play, and contribute to their teams victory. This was suggested in an earlier reply to this thread, I know. Just worded it a little differently. +1 to the ISK bonus for the victors.
Mary Sedillo Pure Innocence. EoN. 202	Posted - 2013.08.05 01:16:00 - [22] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: I don't know about that...i spend 1,000,000 isk trying to fight a Pubstomping squad the other day, i finish 1st in my team with 1400 wp... and i got rewarded with 250,000 isk..WoOw!! The following battle i sniped in the red-line, killed a couple of guys.. and make 200,000 isk profit. It is more profitable to DON'T try...or to be more precise.. to DON'T PLAY. Such simple minds... Do you ever consider that the people you did kill were wearing expensive ****? Perhaps you were at the top of the board in a team of tryhard do nothings? All of you AFK panzies, you should maybe go outside if actually playing the game is too much for you. You get almost no rewards for what you do, while I regularly am pushing 200-300k a match actually fighting.
FLAYLOCK Steve Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 73	Posted - 2013.08.05 01:23:00 - [23] - Quote Kinky Burrito wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Kinky Burrito wrote: I don't believe I've ever seen a game that gave out equal rewards to the winning and losing sides. Maybe if they gave people an incentive to actually win the match, we'd have less garbage matches where the enemy team just sits on a tower or in the red line and snipes the entire game, beginning to end? Every match I've played today has been like this. Its not more profitable to lose, its just people not wanting to lose ISK in a match that is already lost -- It is not fun nor fair to allow the winning team to completely camp the enemy spawns and suck at the teet of spawn kills. The opposing team does not OWE you there deaths. You are not entitled to them. This is not about games that are already lost. This is what people set out to do from the beginning of a match because there is no incentive to win. I myself push objectives, go 20-5 in an advanced suit, and maybe come out 20k isk ahead whereas they make 150k+ for doing nothing. Or some of them just camp because they love making you mad lol
Mary Sedillo Pure Innocence. EoN. 205	Posted - 2013.08.05 07:50:00 - [24] - Quote FLAYLOCK Steve wrote: Kinky Burrito wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Kinky Burrito wrote: I don't believe I've ever seen a game that gave out equal rewards to the winning and losing sides. Maybe if they gave people an incentive to actually win the match, we'd have less garbage matches where the enemy team just sits on a tower or in the red line and snipes the entire game, beginning to end? Every match I've played today has been like this. Its not more profitable to lose, its just people not wanting to lose ISK in a match that is already lost -- It is not fun nor fair to allow the winning team to completely camp the enemy spawns and suck at the teet of spawn kills. The opposing team does not OWE you there deaths. You are not entitled to them. This is not about games that are already lost. This is what people set out to do from the beginning of a match because there is no incentive to win. I myself push objectives, go 20-5 in an advanced suit, and maybe come out 20k isk ahead whereas they make 150k+ for doing nothing. Or some of them just camp because they love making you mad lol By the way, your attack on our property today? It went badly for you folks. Very badly. Just saying.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion 63	Posted - 2013.08.05 08:02:00 - [25] - Quote FYI http://dust514.com/news/blog/2012/12/war-and-profit/ Old but probably still true.
Michael Arck sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 461	Posted - 2013.08.05 08:24:00 - [26] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: Lol. You guys are soft.
The Robot Devil Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 807	Posted - 2013.08.05 09:10:00 - [27] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Kinky Burrito wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Kinky Burrito wrote: I don't believe I've ever seen a game that gave out equal rewards to the winning and losing sides. Maybe if they gave people an incentive to actually win the match, we'd have less garbage matches where the enemy team just sits on a tower or in the red line and snipes the entire game, beginning to end? Every match I've played today has been like this. Its not more profitable to lose, its just people not wanting to lose ISK in a match that is already lost -- It is not fun nor fair to allow the winning team to completely camp the enemy spawns and suck at the teet of spawn kills. The opposing team does not OWE you there deaths. You are not entitled to them. This is not about games that are already lost. This is what people set out to do from the beginning of a match because there is no incentive to win. I myself push objectives, go 20-5 in an advanced suit, and maybe come out 20k isk ahead whereas they make 150k+ for doing nothing. Pics or it didn't happen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFUqVeQg-Yg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 878	Posted - 2013.08.05 09:43:00 - [28] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: I don't know about that...i spend 1,000,000 isk trying to fight a Pubstomping squad the other day, i finish 1st in my team with 1400 wp... and i got rewarded with 250,000 isk..WoOw!! The following battle i sniped in the red-line, killed a couple of guys.. and make 200,000 isk profit. It is more profitable to DON'T try...or to be more precise.. to DON'T PLAY. Such simple minds... Do you ever consider that the people you did kill were wearing expensive **? Perhaps you were at the top of the board in a team of tryhard do nothings? All of you AFK panzies, you should maybe go outside if actually playing the game is too much for you. You get almost no rewards for what you do, while I regularly am pushing 200-300k a match actually fighting. No... it happens all the time. Only way to fight Pubstompers is with tier 2 ADV or Proto equipment, and dying lots of times. Of course 90% of the time you end up losing anyway...So the harder you try, the harder you are punish. Only the Pubstomper benefits from it... the harder you try to win the more WP, kills, and ISK they get... and you get NOTHING. But... sit in the red-line and kill JUST a couple of Pubstormers, and you get rewarded.. regardless if you win or not. The full rewards system is **... it rewards people for not trying, and punishes people for trying.
Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2013.08.05 10:04:00 - [29] - Quote Yesterday, I was involved in a grudge match. A public match in skirmish had former corp mates. Of course both squads had to run full proto because of this. My suits cost about 120K I lost 10 of them. I made 500K from the match. There are many matches I earn upwards of 700K to 1M. lol pub matches can get ridiculous. When everyone runs proto and there are 2-3 enemy tankers that keep calling them in after they lose the first one. There isn't much incentive to win, but there sure is to taking down all those guys in high end gear.
dustwaffle Gravity Prone EoN. 285	Posted - 2013.08.05 10:18:00 - [30] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Yesterday, I was involved in a grudge match. A public match in skirmish had former corp mates. Of course both squads had to run full proto because of this. My suits cost about 120K I lost 10 of them. I made 500K from the match. There are many matches I earn upwards of 700K to 1M. lol pub matches can get ridiculous. When everyone runs proto and there are 2-3 enemy tankers that keep calling them in after they lose the first one. There isn't much incentive to win, but there sure is to taking down all those guys in high end gear. Former Namtar Elite corp mates?



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