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Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
914
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Posted - 2013.08.03 03:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tl:dr- Armor penalty doesn't matter [unearly ]as much[/u] at mid-long ranges as you kittens may think.
Eve players are all too familiar with the understanding of something called orbital velocity. I'll spare you my terrible attempt at trying to show the math that I do understand here and just sum it up in saying, "Things moving quickly are easier to track when they are far away rather than up close"
So we'll stay away from abstract numbers and deal in proportions we know.
A) Crap slow moving heavy: 3 m/s
B) Average assault movement: 5 m/s
C) Average sprinting assault: 7 m/s
D) Scout sprinting w/ catalyzers: 10 m/s
Now using math and figuring for the orbital velocities of these different suits we can figure out how fast they move in terms of the speed you have to track them in. The term that makes the most sense to me that I can visualize is the 'degrees' that the players would move in your field of vision. You could also talk about degrees also as a % of a circle. I'll give both numbers. So the faster something is moving the more of a circle you have to track to be able to follow them.
For reference I did some testing of the tracking (spinning/aiming) at 100% sensitivity w/o any armor mods and a MLT AR:
Scout/Logi/Assault suits track about 200 degrees a second non-ADS (+/-5%)
Heavy suits track about 135 degrees a second non-ADS (+/-5%)
Scout/Logi/Assault suits track about 65 degrees a second w/ ADS (+/- 5%)
Heavy suits track about 51 degrees a second w/ADS (+/-5%)
Also I found adjusting the sensitivity to 0 didn't affect hip fire, but ADS was about 2x as slow as 100%.
@ 5 m (in degrees/% of circle)
A) 34.9/9.5% B) 57.3/15.9% C)80.2/22.3% D) 114.7/31.8%
Here you look and there is a difference of 79 degrees (per second) in tracking a sprinting scout and a plodding heavy at 5m. This easily explains why it is so difficult to track. However, all of them are below all suits' hipfire tracking rate (which is crazy fast), while the sprinters can run faster than the ADS tracking. Hipfire tracking a player at max tracking rate is nearly impossible.
@ 10m (in degrees/%)
A)17.2/4.8% B)28.6/7.9% C)40.1/11.1% D)57.3/15.9%
Here you begin to see the drop off in speed differences. The scout is still able to outrun the tracking speed of an ADS heavy here, but these speeds are still fairly fast and hard to hit.
@ 25m
A)6.9/1.9% B)11.5/3.2% C)16.1/4.5% D)22.9/6.4%
Here is an even bigger difference. Between the sprinting scout and the slow heavy is a 16 degree difference. This is still significant at the ADS level however as 16 degrees is about 25%-30% of the normal ADS rate.
@ 50m
A)3.4/1.0% B)5.7/2.0% C)8.0/2.2% D)11.5/3.2%
Here we are seeing very little difference in tracking speed. It amounts to about 10-15% of the tracking rate during ADS.
So speed matters when you are dodging bullets at close ranges, and when you want to get into cover quickly, or when you want to dodge that grenade that people can only throw about 30m, but it doesn't really matter as much at longer ranges as you can see. |
Paladin Sas
Pro Hic Immortalis
League of Infamy
178
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 06:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
sir, you have won my attention in the greatest possible way... idiots and their ideas come and go, math is forever |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
917
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Posted - 2013.08.03 15:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Armor Victor! |
Knightshade Belladonna
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
789
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Posted - 2013.08.03 15:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nice post.
Makes a lot of sense too , never really thought about it like that.
I can take a frigate next to your big bad ass ship/gun in eve and make you rip your hair out trying to kill me while I hold you there.. but if I go out a few km I'm obliterated by one shot. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
2283
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Posted - 2013.08.03 15:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree - at the longer ranges, the speed penalty isn't so important in terms of actually aiming at the target.
It does, however, still have an effect in other ways - consider, for example, being shot at from mid-long range when crossing a stretch of open ground. It takes longer to get into cover for an armour tanker, so it still affects them adversely by having them in harm's way longer. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
917
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 15:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I agree - at the longer ranges, the speed penalty isn't so important in terms of actually aiming at the target.
It does, however, still have an effect in other ways - consider, for example, being shot at from mid-long range when crossing a stretch of open ground. It takes longer to get into cover for an armour tanker, so it still affects them adversely by having them in harm's way longer.
Yep, this is still a weakness of them. That's why I"ve learned that a lot of times you can pick when you engage at range. And typically if you can help it, don't expose yourself until you are close enough to dive into cover.
Also I was thinking about mass drivers and people's frustration with them lately. It's kind of funny, but theoretically I believe repair tools (especially the longer range ones) can do well to mitigate incoming damage from mass drivers. As a logi, getting distance, then locking your most important targets could be the difference between survival and death for a team. |
Paladin Sas
Pro Hic Immortalis
League of Infamy
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 15:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I agree - at the longer ranges, the speed penalty isn't so important in terms of actually aiming at the target.
It does, however, still have an effect in other ways - consider, for example, being shot at from mid-long range when crossing a stretch of open ground. It takes longer to get into cover for an armour tanker, so it still affects them adversely by having them in harm's way longer.
this is very true, but a little forethought and insight can go along way to help relieve this. it can be difficult, but keeping an eye on friendly and enemy positions can help you determine when to make those crossings and once you get to cover, your a tough nut to crack |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
917
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 15:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Paladin Sas wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I agree - at the longer ranges, the speed penalty isn't so important in terms of actually aiming at the target.
It does, however, still have an effect in other ways - consider, for example, being shot at from mid-long range when crossing a stretch of open ground. It takes longer to get into cover for an armour tanker, so it still affects them adversely by having them in harm's way longer. this is very true, but a little forethought and insight can go along way to help relieve this. it can be difficult, but keeping an eye on friendly and enemy positions can help you determine when to make those crossings and once you get to cover, your a tough nut to crack
Also this is why I've really liked fighting at range while carrying a scanner. It provides so much situational awareness that puts you at an advantage.
Honestly, I'm not amazing as a slayer, but I really think some of the tactics that I've been trying to employ and I'm not seeing many other do is a pretty wide open niche for a lot of you all with a much better gun game than me. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
921
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 18:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
So you can get equal eHP as shield tankers and at range be more lethal because you can stack damage mods with them. |
Guildo Crow
ZionTCD
78
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Posted - 2013.08.03 18:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc&list=FL3zv59FHQBckhclO05n4W5w&index=1
A great video explaining how stuff like tracking works in EvE. For only those who are interested. |
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Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
922
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Posted - 2013.08.04 03:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Actually I haven't checked tracking on side arms or their ADS tracking yet... |
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