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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
League of Infamy
2332
   |
Posted - 2013.08.02 14:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm going to throw this out there in underlined text so for emphasis as it's highly important.
These tests were performed because we're trying to fix a problem before it's a problem. It should be taken at face value but also considered for potential imbalance. The only reason it hasn't been brought to light yet is due to their gross lack of use at the moment for a variety of reasons.
Videos of Testing
Active Scanner Tests on first suit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qtsvpnfa9w&feature=youtu.be
'Passive' Scanning Tests on second suit): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nu8C7dIQg&feature=youtu.be
Active Scanner visibility duration bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrdVoeFUYhQ&feature=youtu.be
Tests and Results
The tests occurred on an Oceania Domination match as IGÇÖve recently decided itGÇÖs the best testing environment due to low population and it gives us a wide, open map to be left alone (mostly). The test conducted in the first video was with a Prototype Minmatar Scout suit against three Active Scanner variants to test for different effects.
(first suit) Minmatar Scout Suit Profile: 45 db
- With his skills: 33.07 db
(second suit with two basic profile dampeners (-30% profile))
- 23.15 db
(Standard) Active Scanner Precision: 46 db
GÇÿEclipseGÇÖ Active Scanner Precision: 36 db
GÇÿAcoylthGÇÖ Active Scanner Precision: 28 db
The first suit we had some issues with the GÇÿEclipseGÇÖ Scanner which was sort of hit or miss. One instance it would scan him down, the next instance it wouldnGÇÖt. The GÇÿAcolythGÇÖ picked him up instantly as you can see in the video.
The second suit on the other hand was able to defeat all of them and as IGÇÖve explained in other threads, even with all skills level five he wouldnGÇÖt have been able to get past the GÇÿAcolythGÇÖ scanner without applying Profile Dampener modules which would inevitably gimp his suit due to only having two low slots. This applies to all Scouts as even with all skills at level 5 the profile just doesn't go low enough to beat 28 db precision (the value for -ALL- prototype active scanners) without the aid of Profile Dampening modules.
How The Scanning System Works
To give our readers a fond understanding of how the scanning system works, the precision of the person doing the scanning (be it active or passive) has to be LESS THAN the profile of the target in question. Being as my Logistics SuitGÇÖs base precision is 50 db with a scan radius of 10 meters, there is absolutely no reason I should be able to see him appear on TacNet (the location of enemies/installations on the map) but as we can see from the second video, this is not the case.
Notable Issues with Active Scanning
As seen in the third video there seems to be a visibility duration bug with the active scanners. The scanner in question for that video is the GÇÿAcolythGÇÖ which has a visibility duration of 5.0 seconds, but as you can clearly see the actual value on that is closer to 30. ThereGÇÖs even a GÇÿrefreshGÇÖ half way through that puts him back on TacNet when he was just starting to fade out. This may be a bug in the way the scanner itself works or it may be an outlying variable.
Now, to elaborate on just how powerful these tools are I'm going to provide the community with the formula for finding their effective area. Simply go to 'Show Info' tab on the scanner in question and look for two things: Scan Distance and Scan Angle.
With this you can use the formula: Area = 1/2 A*B*sin(X)
Scan distance will be used as the values for 'a' and 'b' while Scan Angle will be the value of 'x'
With this in mind we can see that the 'Acoylth' Active Scanner has an effective scan area of 4,330 meters. So, as we can see, with a precision of 28 db this is a very powerful tool to have. There is some good news to all of this as there is a notification if someone has tried to scan you and your profile bested it, saying "scan prevented". On the other hand, it does NOT tell you if you have successfully been scanned. I'm mixed on this because whether it does or does not each has it's own pros and cons which I won't get into as it's largely my opinion, not fact.
So, considering that Precision vs Profile doesnGÇÖt apply if they are within your FoV (Field of View) of 90 degrees, even when not aiming directly at the target, and the visibility duration on scanners seems to be slightly bugged, we may be witnessing the beginning of something that could truly be a deal breaker for the scanning system in itGÇÖs entirety. If the scanning system is broken than thereGÇÖs no reason to rely on it and itGÇÖs best to always assume that youGÇÖre on TacNet no matter what.
Let me put emphasis on this:
A Scout with all skills at five CANNOT get beneath Prototype Active Scanners without the aid of Profile Dampening modules.
The ONLY fit in the game that can get past a Prototype Focused Active Scanner is a Gallente Gk.0 with all skills level 5, two complex profile dampeners and one basic (or better) profile dampeners. This is because the Prototype Gallente Scout is the only suit in the game with enough low slots to fit those modules.
Now, I don't think it should be impossible for active scanners to work on scouts but I do think it should be a strong toss up. This is slightly the case but given that ALL Prototype Active Scanners have a precision of 28 db, there's no reason to use any other than the Flux variant with it's massive 20,000 meter effective scan area.
Continued on next post |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
League of Infamy
2332
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 14:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
'Passive Scanning'
Passive Scanning is, in theory, using your suit's base Precision and Scan Range values to find targets without the use of an Active Scanner. There are a number of things wrong with this and I'll explain them in depth.
- First of all, it's broken in and of it's entirety. As outlined in the third video precision vs profile isn't even in the equation if they are within your field of view and neither does your scan radius. If you can see them on your screen they are on the map, simple as that. I have, on several occasions, stated that the system needs to be that your precision has to beat their profile even when looking at them - otherwise the system can be defeated no matter what the person is fielding.
- Second of all, the values aren't very good. While the suits have different profile and precision values based on classification (Assault is 50/55 while Logistics is 50/50) they all have the same scan range. This makes a Scout suit less 'scouty' as they all have the same values as far as range with the exception of the Gallente Scout Suit which receives a 10% bonus to scan range per level. So the obvious problem there is that a Scout has to get in just as close as any other suit in order to perform that role.
- Third, there is no way to gauge how effective you actually are at being stealthy or finding players who are attempting to be stealthy. The information is provided in 'Show Info' but not on the fitting screen, making it difficult to see the actual numbers unless you do the math yourself at which point - how do we honestly know what the real values are? For instance, applying Two Complex Range Amplifiers to a Gallente scout suit with all skills level 5 will give me two different numbers depending on the calculation.
Applying the module bonus to the suit range (all skills at 5) will give us a range of 42.75 meters.
Applying the module bonus to the RESULT of the previous module will give us a range of 47.31 meters.
There Are No Outside Variables
There are no outside variables besides shared vision between players (soon to be removed) to impacting your profile. A Heavy with a Heavy Machine Gun won't appear on your map if he's behind you and outside your scan range. Incidentally, until the TacNet changes mentioned by CCP Wolfman occur, he -will- show up if a friendly spots him. This is sort of an oddity as it relies less on the actual scanning system and more on 'visual confirmation' which I feel needs to be relayed via voice.
Weapon fire does not increase your profile and for now it sort of makes sense without any way to customize weapons. Suppressors could be a good counter to this and I have seen some mention of having Shields impact profile to make players easier to spot but again this falls down to the issue of whether or not they're in your scan radius - which, if they are, it means you're in theirs as well and probably have already spotted them anyway.
Shields increasing profile sounds good in theory as counter logic to armor decreases movement speed, but that change would only matter when being used against Active Scanners. There is also another side-effect to this in that it would completely gimp scout suits because they need both speed and low profile to be effective - of course, when the trade off is having armor which reduces movement speed and shields which increase profile... You're out of options as far as physical defense.
In Conclusion
What it boils down to is the current scanning mechanics need a definite overhaul as is and I feel that while we are making some good steps, it could use more than just tweaking. It's a yes or no situation more times than not with very little middle ground - you're either spotted or you're not and there are more ways to be spotted than there are not to be spotted with the current iteration. While this mostly relates to Scouts (I know, I've been on that topic as of late) it applies to everyone; location of the enemy on the battlefield is the deciding factor.
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
League of Infamy
2340
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 15:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:The tacnet effect of tagging people whenever they're on your screen instead of only when you scroll over them is a huge thing for scanning, something that can't be overstated enough.
Also <3 Aeon's posts - he is the Lenin of the glorious scout proletarian revolution.
Totally keeping this as my new manually-inputted signature.
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Aeon Amadi - Dust 514 ~/-\~ Eve Online - Nomistrav
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:You are like the Lenin of the glorious scout proletarian revolution |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
League of Infamy
2341
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 15:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Decasor wrote:Outstanding post as usual.
I agree with the fitting screen problem with regards to scan profile and strength - I put a suggesting in this feedback forum yesterday to the effect that it would be extremely handy to have the stats show fully on the fitting screen, inclusive of skills and modules.
Throw a link on this thread, definitely want to look into that. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
League of Infamy
2343
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 16:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:CCP is planning on removing shared vision for squads in order to encourage people to use the scanner. This is insane. links: here and here
The concept is sound and I actually agree with it but the current scanning mechanics do need a lot of work.
The reason for this particular edition in the series (I'd been hinting at it pretty hardcore in my other 'Perfecting The Role' threads) is because of this announcement. I'd been sitting on the thought that Prototype Active Scanners were a bit OP but it was never really an issue because - let's face it, no-one uses the damned things.
On the other hand, however, now that these changes ARE coming and the active scanner is going to be more prominent, now felt like a really good time to go ahead and put this out on the table. There needs to be some checks and balances to these before those changes occur and people start using them otherwise I'm deeply concerned that it's going to contribute to the imbalances that Scout suits already face.
Again, this isn't limited just to Scout suits, I understand that, but they are the ones who are going to suffer from it the most as they have less survivability than any other class. That and no other suit is -TRYING- to be stealthy, though I have seen some Heavies make the effort.
The whole scanning system is a little broken IMO but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be before we had the profile/precision system - with which point it was just bizarre. Logistics had a scan range of 25 meters and there were instances of Heavies being able to see Scouts sneaking up behind them because the scan system registered targets at 180 degrees like it did with Line of Sight. So, if you were directly behind the target you'd appear on their minimap regardless of profile/precision values.
This is also the baseline for Cloaking, which Wolfman mentioned was still on the table but we're not going to see it anytime soon. I'm glad because if it were introduced now, with the TacNet changes along with it, Cloaking would be damned near useless. |
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