DUST Search - [FEEDBACK] Grenades: Damage, Radius, and Spamability

Wakko03 wrote:

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

Wakko03 wrote:

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives.
Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2.

I was considering mentioning this too, but people are really touchy about nerfing their grenade-throwing so I was trying to use the scalpel and not the hammer here. Although, those same people defending nades are probably the ones most heavily benefiting from their current state. I'm not gonna lie, I use them too as a means of "countering" but I've begun to realize just how ridiculous it is, and they seriously need to be retuned.

You know why I am defending them, because it has taken me 2 months or more to learn how to cook them just right to still get the bunny hopper who can avoid most of the damage if it lands on the ground.

2 months is hardly how long it takes to max out grenades, nor is it an effective argument. Your only argument seems to be "No don't nerf my IWIN button because it took me a while to get it."

Really, do the math
1.4 million SP on top of the other skillpoints required for dropsuits & dropsuit upgrades, then you have to fit them into a suit - they say over in GD that it takes 4-5 million sp to make a good suit. You get 190,000 in active a week and about 160,000 in passive so that is about 360,000 SP a week without any boosters so right there it is about a month to just get 1.4 million up.

So show me a player that gives over on anything else but getting grenades right out of the bat for the iWin button.

And read what I actually wrote, it took me 2 months to learn how to cook them properly to get the kills I do get with all levels of the grenades.

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Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven EoN. 156	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:07:00 - [1] - Quote Alright, to start off I'd like to note that this is coming from a player who tends to and prefers to play with upper-tier players. This is something I've been noting as the general prevalence of Prototype suits has risen to the point where the overall playing field is relatively equal. The range of opinions on the matter will certainly vary but my stance is coming from someone who is playing with and against the highest tier players. Now the issue at hand... Every FPS game since the dawn of time has usually included grenades as a viable tactic to deter or suppress groups of infantry. It is something that has almost become a staple in the modern FPS. I'm noting this obvious fact because it's not something I'm wishing at all to see go away, only to simply reevaluate the effectiveness of the grenade in this particular game. At the level I'm playing at with effectively everyone running prototype suits, the average TTK (Time To Kill) on people with maxed out shields/armor has risen to the point where everyone is now inclined to use one-hit kill methods as the most effective way to rid themselves of the enemy. This is a perfectly valid tactic, but the problem now lies in just how prevalent grenades (and explosions in general) have become because of the relative ease of use. Since the Flaylock nerf, players seem to now be trending towards throwing Mini-Orbitals (Core Locus Grenades) as a substitute for getting the job done quick and easy, which creates a scenario where you have no choice but to return grenade spam with grenade spam or risk getting one-hit-killed because going in with a gun will just get you blown up. I cannot recount how many games I've had against who I used to think were the "best" players because they were top 100 on leadersboards, and yet the killfeeds read nothing but: Core Locus Grenade, Core Locus Grenade, Core Locus Grenade, M1 Locus Grenade, Core Locus Grenade, Freedom Mass Driver, Core Locus Grenade... You get the point. I think this is a product of both the general high TTK as well as the nowhere-near-perfect hit detection. These two things coalesce into people resorting to a style of play where you strive to aim in the general direction of the enemy, instead of actually having to, you know, shoot them. In a genre deemed First Person Shooter, I've begun to see less and less of a tendency to actually shoot the enemy and more "blow them up because it takes too long to kill with bullets". I am thus here to propose a few changes to not necessarily eradicate grenade spam (as it is a valid tactic) but instead to retune the risk-vs-reward aspect of it. As it stands, increasing your skills in grenades effectively comes with a decent increase in fitting costs at relatively no drawbacks to damage/radius because of the lack of variations. This is the first problem. Core Locus Grenades are the only prototype level anti-infantry grenade and they come with a linear increase in both damage and radius. Instead, there needs to be a decision made by the player on whether to choose rewarding accuracy of your throw with high damage or a general suppression grenade at lower damage. Here's what I think would be fair: Locus Grenade Damage: 400 Blast Radius: 6.0m M8 Locus Grenade Damage: 450 Blast Radius: 6.0m M8 Packed Locus Grenade Damage: 500 Blast Radius: 4.0m M8 Sleek Locus Grenade Damage: 400 Blast Radius: 6.6m Core Locus Grenade Damage: 500 Blast Radius: 6.0m Core Packed Locus Grenade Damage: 600 Blast Radius: 4.0m Core Sleek Locus Grenade Damage: 450 Blast Radius: 7.2m So what I've done here is split up the stat increases that we get at advanced and prototype levels into different variants, as well as reduce the overall effectiveness of the general ADV and PRO grenade types. By doing this, this not only increases player customization but forces the player to choose between high-reward precision throws or low-reward suppression throws. The CPU/PG costs I chose not to go into because that is an entirely different balancing act that I don't wish to delve into. The next thing I'd like to address is the overall spamability of grenades. Right now, nanohives provide a relatively infinite supply of grenades as long as there are nanites there to provide them. This presents a problem especially when you're dealing with these mega-grenades and the sheer damage/radius they do, again presenting us with a situation where there is little to do besides retreat or return the grenade spam. I know this is a touchy subject with a lot of people, but I seriously think that CCP needs to retune either (a) how many grenades a suit is able to restock or (b) how many "nanites" grenades cost to refill. There needs to be a sacrifice made by the player by choosing to use a tactic which is highly suppressive but yet currently presents little drawback. Grenades should be something that requires timing and precision not something that allows a constant suppression of an area. They should absolutely be deadly when used correctly and not a method of garnering fast kills because it simply takes too long to shoot the enemy. Anyways, feel free to discuss the topic and give opinions.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 2213	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:12:00 - [2] - Quote Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives. Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2.
BL4CKST4R warravens League of Infamy 873	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:19:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives. Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2. And fix armor, and/or reduce the effective ratings. No amount of armor tanking currently possible can survive a core locus grenade, even with shields fully functional.
Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven EoN. 157	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:21:00 - [4] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives. Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2. I was considering mentioning this too, but people are really touchy about nerfing their grenade-throwing so I was trying to use the scalpel and not the hammer here. Although, those same people defending nades are probably the ones most heavily benefiting from their current state. I'm not gonna lie, I use them too as a means of "countering" but I've begun to realize just how ridiculous it is, and they seriously need to be retuned.
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 297	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:23:00 - [5] - Quote As I said in another thread, no - this is a really bad idea. I use my core locus when more than 1 enemy comes from me, and to dislodge the massive blob of mass driver flux users... just like those users they keep telling me when I question why I have to use a exile because ccp said my logi suit had too much cpu. Don't get into that situation where you are standing still for my grenade to hit you. The M8's are salvage only and are used to take on Heavies in PC Battles and you only get 1 as salvage. I also made the choice to use a cpu upgrade so I could gimp my armor for the ishukone gauaged nano-hive, why because 9/10 times nobody else throws out a nano hive. Grenades are fine as long as tanks lav and dropships are in every mode and I have to deal with them and the infantry, not to mention that I often have to face 5 to 6 heavies at one time with forge guns and HMGs.
Cosgar ParagonX 3781	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:25:00 - [6] - Quote What if they increased the timer to 6~8 seconds depending on the variant?
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 297	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:26:00 - [7] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives. Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2. I was considering mentioning this too, but people are really touchy about nerfing their grenade-throwing so I was trying to use the scalpel and not the hammer here. Although, those same people defending nades are probably the ones most heavily benefiting from their current state. I'm not gonna lie, I use them too as a means of "countering" but I've begun to realize just how ridiculous it is, and they seriously need to be retuned. You know why I am defending them, because it has taken me 2 months or more to learn how to cook them just right to still get the bunny hopper who can avoid most of the damage if it lands on the ground.
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 297	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:33:00 - [8] - Quote Also there is not a 7.2 meter splash, because 3 enemies were at the same time trying to destroy my nano-hive which has a 7.2 meter bubble and 2/3 survived and continue to survive when I throw the core locus.... it also answers the guys using duvolles because once again ccp gimped my suit and told me tough noogies you ain't getting anything from us, in fact we're taking more of your cpu.
Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven EoN. 157	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:39:00 - [9] - Quote Wakko03 wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives. Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2. I was considering mentioning this too, but people are really touchy about nerfing their grenade-throwing so I was trying to use the scalpel and not the hammer here. Although, those same people defending nades are probably the ones most heavily benefiting from their current state. I'm not gonna lie, I use them too as a means of "countering" but I've begun to realize just how ridiculous it is, and they seriously need to be retuned. You know why I am defending them, because it has taken me 2 months or more to learn how to cook them just right to still get the bunny hopper who can avoid most of the damage if it lands on the ground. 2 months is hardly how long it takes to max out grenades, nor is it an effective argument. Your only argument seems to be "No don't nerf my IWIN button because it took me a while to get it."
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 297	Posted - 2013.08.01 23:48:00 - [10] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Wakko03 wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives. Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2. I was considering mentioning this too, but people are really touchy about nerfing their grenade-throwing so I was trying to use the scalpel and not the hammer here. Although, those same people defending nades are probably the ones most heavily benefiting from their current state. I'm not gonna lie, I use them too as a means of "countering" but I've begun to realize just how ridiculous it is, and they seriously need to be retuned. You know why I am defending them, because it has taken me 2 months or more to learn how to cook them just right to still get the bunny hopper who can avoid most of the damage if it lands on the ground. 2 months is hardly how long it takes to max out grenades, nor is it an effective argument. Your only argument seems to be "No don't nerf my IWIN button because it took me a while to get it." Really, do the math 1.4 million SP on top of the other skillpoints required for dropsuits & dropsuit upgrades, then you have to fit them into a suit - they say over in GD that it takes 4-5 million sp to make a good suit. You get 190,000 in active a week and about 160,000 in passive so that is about 360,000 SP a week without any boosters so right there it is about a month to just get 1.4 million up. So show me a player that gives over on anything else but getting grenades right out of the bat for the iWin button. And read what I actually wrote, it took me 2 months to learn how to cook them properly to get the kills I do get with all levels of the grenades.

Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven EoN. 157	Posted - 2013.08.02 00:18:00 - [11] - Quote Wakko03 wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Wakko03 wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Regarding the spammability of grenades, I would suggest making them only restockable at a supply depot and not at nanohives. Also possibly reduce the grenade count to 2. I was considering mentioning this too, but people are really touchy about nerfing their grenade-throwing so I was trying to use the scalpel and not the hammer here. Although, those same people defending nades are probably the ones most heavily benefiting from their current state. I'm not gonna lie, I use them too as a means of "countering" but I've begun to realize just how ridiculous it is, and they seriously need to be retuned. You know why I am defending them, because it has taken me 2 months or more to learn how to cook them just right to still get the bunny hopper who can avoid most of the damage if it lands on the ground. 2 months is hardly how long it takes to max out grenades, nor is it an effective argument. Your only argument seems to be "No don't nerf my IWIN button because it took me a while to get it." Really, do the math 1.4 million SP on top of the other skillpoints required for dropsuits & dropsuit upgrades, then you have to fit them into a suit - they say over in GD that it takes 4-5 million sp to make a good suit. You get 190,000 in active a week and about 160,000 in passive so that is about 360,000 SP a week without any boosters so right there it is about a month to just get 1.4 million up. So show me a player that gives over on anything else but getting grenades right out of the bat for the iWin button. And read what I actually wrote, it took me 2 months to learn how to cook them properly to get the kills I do get with all levels of the grenades. Yeah I misread, sorry. You still provide little as to why you think splitting up the stats of the grenades into variants is a bad idea. By doing this, your grenadier skill actually provides you with MORE options and at the same time serves to provide some balance to grenades...
lithkul devant Cerberus Network. The Superpowers 18	Posted - 2013.08.02 00:44:00 - [12] - Quote In refernce to the OP, I understand where you are coming from, however, as a player with only 5mill total of skill points. I will not give up gernades, why might you ask, the answer is simple, without gernades as a heavy with a HMG I typically have no way to gun down say a proto suit scout with even an advanced gun before he is to my face and kills me in 1 shot without using a gernade. I can literally be lighting every slug into the scout and they will survive, same with the logi with the AR, they will out damage me or have more health and live. As an assault class, you think I would want to give up the gernades as well, oh they might kill me they might damage me etc, please inform me how I am supposed to win against a freedom mass driver on a logi proto or on an assault proto suit without resorting to a 1 hit kill or praying that 2-3 other people are close by but out of the range of the mass driver. Same with the flaylock till it was toned back down some, maybe to much. Until the weapons are more balanced, I do not see a reason to give the vetern players the instant win in all cases and scenarios just because they have the more powerful suit. I do not want to be just a target for the people with double or triple my sp and having no chance in hell of wining against them. An example of this is when I got an Assault rifle full clip pressing it against a proto heavies back and emptied the entire clip...guess who died in that encounter, let me give you a hint, it wasn't the proto heavy. Gernades are the equalizer between the haves and have nots.


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