DUST Search - What do we do about HAVs and Dropships?

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

Alvor Jeskannen wrote:

Halador Osiris wrote:

What other systems can you guys think up?

As a Gunloggi driver, all I can ask is this;

Please, get rid of the ability for players to get to the top of skyscrapers. Forge gunners abuse it so much, that they pretty much own the map, and any ideas of calling in an HAV are forfeit, because the now god-status forge gunners can see EVERYTHING.

Case in point? That map, with the four or so towers, and four capture points in skirmish. I had a decent cover position after calling in a Gunloggi, and as soon as I got in it, the forge gunner from the enemy team (who was by that point dominating the match from the top of a tower) called in a precision strike directly on top of me.

I managed to scoot far enough from the center of the blast, flip on my 10% shield hardeners and my rep as I took damage, and ended up with about 200 shields left. (Out of a maximum of 5800.) What does he do then?

He one-shot's me with his Ishukone Forge Gun. Fantastic.

I'm not saying to nerf forge gun users, as most of them actually work for their kills, but please, for the love of the State, either change the shape of the top of skyscrapers so that people can't get on top of them, or just put an invisible wall there or something.

Striking down from high positions is perfectly fine and should never be penalized.

The issue is your vehicle being unable to survive their attacks long enough to retreat based on our current mechanics.

The solution to this issue is not to try and penalize others for finding creative ways to remove a threat while defending themselves.

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Halador Osiris Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 527	Posted - 2013.08.01 14:16:00 - [1] - Quote HAVs and Dropships have a problem. If you want to survive an entire match, you'll need to pay well over the revenue that any single match can generate. On top of that, if a vehicle can be destroyed in any one match, it can theoretically be destroyed in every match. Somebody start up a shark loan corporation and we're golden. So, how do we fix this? I have no idea, but if no changes are made to the entire system then there are two ways to go: Vehicles remain as they are, vehicle operators either need funding from outside sources (like their corp) or they need to run around on the ground for a few matches every time they lose their vehicle. Vehicles are buffed to a point where they are immortal. As you can see, neither of these is favorable. The only close solution I can think up is to buff vehicles to the point where they are near immortal, but that still poses the problem that a vehicle which can be destroyed in any one match can be destroyed in every match. What other systems can you guys think up?
Alvor Jeskannen Woodgrain Atari Lokun Listamenn 0	Posted - 2013.08.01 14:33:00 - [2] - Quote Halador Osiris wrote: What other systems can you guys think up? As a Gunloggi driver, all I can ask is this; Please, get rid of the ability for players to get to the top of skyscrapers. Forge gunners abuse it so much, that they pretty much own the map, and any ideas of calling in an HAV are forfeit, because the now god-status forge gunners can see EVERYTHING. Case in point? That map, with the four or so towers, and four capture points in skirmish. I had a decent cover position after calling in a Gunloggi, and as soon as I got in it, the forge gunner from the enemy team (who was by that point dominating the match from the top of a tower) called in a precision strike directly on top of me. I managed to scoot far enough from the center of the blast, flip on my 10% shield hardeners and my rep as I took damage, and ended up with about 200 shields left. (Out of a maximum of 5800.) What does he do then? He one-shot's me with his Ishukone Forge Gun. Fantastic. I'm not saying to nerf forge gun users, as most of them actually work for their kills, but please, for the love of the State, either change the shape of the top of skyscrapers so that people can't get on top of them, or just put an invisible wall there or something.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 2798	Posted - 2013.08.01 14:40:00 - [3] - Quote Alvor Jeskannen wrote: Halador Osiris wrote: What other systems can you guys think up? As a Gunloggi driver, all I can ask is this; Please, get rid of the ability for players to get to the top of skyscrapers. Forge gunners abuse it so much, that they pretty much own the map, and any ideas of calling in an HAV are forfeit, because the now god-status forge gunners can see EVERYTHING. Case in point? That map, with the four or so towers, and four capture points in skirmish. I had a decent cover position after calling in a Gunloggi, and as soon as I got in it, the forge gunner from the enemy team (who was by that point dominating the match from the top of a tower) called in a precision strike directly on top of me. I managed to scoot far enough from the center of the blast, flip on my 10% shield hardeners and my rep as I took damage, and ended up with about 200 shields left. (Out of a maximum of 5800.) What does he do then? He one-shot's me with his Ishukone Forge Gun. Fantastic. I'm not saying to nerf forge gun users, as most of them actually work for their kills, but please, for the love of the State, either change the shape of the top of skyscrapers so that people can't get on top of them, or just put an invisible wall there or something. Striking down from high positions is perfectly fine and should never be penalized. The issue is your vehicle being unable to survive their attacks long enough to retreat based on our current mechanics. The solution to this issue is not to try and penalize others for finding creative ways to remove a threat while defending themselves.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 2588	Posted - 2013.08.01 14:43:00 - [4] - Quote Easy- make them significantly cheaper. We'll also see more vehicles that way, and AV will actually be a viable role for WP gain.
Alvor Jeskannen Woodgrain Atari Lokun Listamenn 0	Posted - 2013.08.01 14:45:00 - [5] - Quote [/quote] Striking down from high positions is perfectly fine and should never be penalized. The issue is your vehicle being unable to survive their attacks long enough to retreat based on our current mechanics. The solution to this issue is not to try and penalize others for finding creative ways to remove a threat while defending themselves.[/quote] I like creative people. I like the ones who find ways to be mobile, despite their choice of equipment. But camping on top of a building, setting up a nest, and ruining the game for others, even your own teammates, is not what I call being creative.
Halador Osiris Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 528	Posted - 2013.08.01 14:48:00 - [6] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Easy- make them significantly cheaper. We'll also see more vehicles that way, and AV will actually be a viable role for WP gain. The cool thing about this approach is that it would turn DUST into the battles that the trailers show, where vehicles are EVERYWHERE. I'd love to have columns of tanks with dropships overhead. Secondly, to the point of FGs being able to cover the entire battlefield from one spot, a larger battlefield would bring down that risk considerably. I've been advocating larger maps since I started this game, and I can't wait to see them happen.
GTA-V FTW Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 257	Posted - 2013.08.01 14:55:00 - [7] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Easy- make them significantly cheaper. We'll also see more vehicles that way, and AV will actually be a viable role for WP gain. Modules and SP are what cost the most on these things, a reduction in both of these areas would do wonders and may even plug the hole in the dam of QQ tears, for at least a little while.
Alvor Jeskannen Woodgrain Atari Lokun Listamenn 0	Posted - 2013.08.01 15:02:00 - [8] - Quote Don't get me wrong -- I'm used to the idea that everybody who isn't an HAV driver, hates HAV drivers. Especially when we're having any sort of impact on the battlefield. And I'll gladly take on AV fit players. But the price of some things, such as turrets, are a bit steep. The module prices are alright, and the chassis, eh....can go either way. I wouldn't argue against a price drop, though. Missile-turret-man, awaaaay......and I'm being shot by three forge guns.
Cosgar ParagonX 3706	Posted - 2013.08.01 15:04:00 - [9] - Quote Link Cosgar wrote: #40 Posted: 2013.05.08 09:42 \| CCP Blam! wrote: Hi all. I've been reading through and we appreciate your feedback. You're right about the vehicle engineering skill. For the other posters, I'm assuming you mean the vehicle core upgrades skill? The reason for lowering the overall bonus was to allow us to create a more varied difference in between our different vehicle roles within the same class. This will become more apparent in the future when we release even more roles with different slot layouts. We also want to make sure that new players have a fighting chance against more skill point rich players who can enjoy the benefit of compounding premium module bonuses in the same fitting. We'll be keeping a close eye on how this nets out in vehicle combat, and ensure that we still afford you the ability to create interesting and unique fits to compliment your combat experience. Best regards, - CCP Blam! Seriously, can we get the Engineering skill buffed back up so vehicles can properly defend themselves until the rework? Consider it common courtesy or something since dedicated pilots have been completely shafted for to long. I'm not even a pilot anymore and I feel bad for them.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 771	Posted - 2013.08.01 15:08:00 - [10] - Quote GTA-V FTW wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Easy- make them significantly cheaper. We'll also see more vehicles that way, and AV will actually be a viable role for WP gain. Modules and SP are what cost the most on these things, a reduction in both of these areas would do wonders and may even plug the hole in the dam of QQ tears, for at least a little while. Wrong Modules themseleves are fairly cheap its the turrets which are way over the top expenisve SP sink is fine, but it has to be worth it and also they took away several skills from the vehicle tree, if they put the PG, Shield/armor hp back, 3% turret damage back and maybe even the prof skill and left the resist onces in and made some skills save PG on PG intensive mods then it would be better for us instead of stealth nerfing skills and removing them I do wish infantry which do not use vehicles would stop coming in with bad ideas

Halador Osiris Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 530	Posted - 2013.08.01 15:13:00 - [11] - Quote I find it funny that a frigate in EVE can cost a couple hundred thousand ISK, but a vehicle in DUST can cost a million. I'd like to add on that a frigate is roughly the length of a 747. EDIT: I'd like to note, only the cheapest of frigates will be several hundred thousand ISK, and only the most expensive DUST vehicles will cost over a million ISK, but the point still stands.
Sylwester Dziewiecki BetaMax. 132	Posted - 2013.08.01 15:15:00 - [12] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Easy- make them significantly cheaper. We'll also see more vehicles that way, and AV will actually be a viable role for WP gain. That will not lower pilots patience.
Cy Clone1 Ancient Exiles Negative-Feedback 178	Posted - 2013.08.01 15:19:00 - [13] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Alvor Jeskannen wrote: Halador Osiris wrote: What other systems can you guys think up? As a Gunloggi driver, all I can ask is this; Please, get rid of the ability for players to get to the top of skyscrapers. Forge gunners abuse it so much, that they pretty much own the map, and any ideas of calling in an HAV are forfeit, because the now god-status forge gunners can see EVERYTHING. Case in point? That map, with the four or so towers, and four capture points in skirmish. I had a decent cover position after calling in a Gunloggi, and as soon as I got in it, the forge gunner from the enemy team (who was by that point dominating the match from the top of a tower) called in a precision strike directly on top of me. I managed to scoot far enough from the center of the blast, flip on my 10% shield hardeners and my rep as I took damage, and ended up with about 200 shields left. (Out of a maximum of 5800.) What does he do then? He one-shot's me with his Ishukone Forge Gun. Fantastic. I'm not saying to nerf forge gun users, as most of them actually work for their kills, but please, for the love of the State, either change the shape of the top of skyscrapers so that people can't get on top of them, or just put an invisible wall there or something. Striking down from high positions is perfectly fine and should never be penalized. The issue is your vehicle being unable to survive their attacks long enough to retreat based on our current mechanics. The solution to this issue is not to try and penalize others for finding creative ways to remove a threat while defending themselves. no it is a problem when railgun tanks cant see them, and the forgegunners can shoot deep into our redline, ive been killed simply calling in a vehicle as soon as the game starts. I got last vehicle call by then they were already on a tower over looking redline.
Halador Osiris Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 532	Posted - 2013.08.01 15:21:00 - [14] - Quote I'd like to add on an M-1 Abrams compared to a Rifter compared to a 747: http://i.imm.io/1emX1.jpeg BTW, M-1 Abrams has a hull length of 7m. Rifter currently costs 420K ISK on the market.
Lorhak Gannarsein DUST University Ivy League 95	Posted - 2013.08.01 16:42:00 - [15] - Quote Why is a spaceship cheaper than my tank.
Nin Ker Red Star Jr. EoN. 46	Posted - 2013.08.01 16:49:00 - [16] - Quote Halador Osiris wrote: I find it funny that a frigate in EVE can cost a couple hundred thousand ISK, but a vehicle in DUST can cost a million. I'd like to add on that a frigate is roughly the length of a 747. EDIT: I'd like to note, only the cheapest of frigates will be several hundred thousand ISK, and only the most expensive DUST vehicles will cost over a million ISK, but the point still stands. Comparing the smallest ship in Eve to the currently biggest vehicle in Dust really makes no sense.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Auxiliaries 2326	Posted - 2013.08.01 16:53:00 - [17] - Quote Nin Ker wrote: Halador Osiris wrote: I find it funny that a frigate in EVE can cost a couple hundred thousand ISK, but a vehicle in DUST can cost a million. I'd like to add on that a frigate is roughly the length of a 747. EDIT: I'd like to note, only the cheapest of frigates will be several hundred thousand ISK, and only the most expensive DUST vehicles will cost over a million ISK, but the point still stands. Comparing the smallest ship in Eve to the currently biggest vehicle in Dust really makes no sense. One Universe, One War. Vehicles, Rifter is larger than HAV and has more firepower, costs less than HAV.
Zekain Kade TeamPlayers EoN. 1358	Posted - 2013.08.01 16:55:00 - [18] - Quote Why aren't their Med weight shield mods like there are light, Med, and heavy armor plate mods?
Skihids Bullet Cluster 1799	Posted - 2013.08.01 16:56:00 - [19] - Quote Vehicles have a problem mainly because there is no unique role for them to fill. The only mission in DUST is to kill, so every vehicle is competing directly with and balanced against infantry. On our current maps it's just as easy to kill with an infantry fitting and it's far more cost effective. There are no rolling battles like in Skirmish 1.0 where the front moves and heavy armor may be required to break through a choke point or a dropship needed to bypass it. There is just no reason to fund an expensive asset in the current game, and there is no funding source other than the individual pilot. So those of us who run vehicles do so just because it's the part of the game we enjoy.
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns 478	Posted - 2013.08.01 16:56:00 - [20] - Quote There's a reason people don't bring 2bn isk vindicators to whelpfleets.

pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 610	Posted - 2013.08.01 17:06:00 - [21] - Quote Nin Ker wrote: Halador Osiris wrote: I find it funny that a frigate in EVE can cost a couple hundred thousand ISK, but a vehicle in DUST can cost a million. I'd like to add on that a frigate is roughly the length of a 747. EDIT: I'd like to note, only the cheapest of frigates will be several hundred thousand ISK, and only the most expensive DUST vehicles will cost over a million ISK, but the point still stands. Comparing the smallest ship in Eve to the currently biggest vehicle in Dust really makes no sense. Well it sort of dose one universe one war 2 price systems yea totally makes sence.
Nin Ker Red Star Jr. EoN. 46	Posted - 2013.08.01 17:12:00 - [22] - Quote What about scale? 4000 players apparently took part in the biggest engagement in Eve... roughly 4000 play dust. I understand trying to compare size etc. But as it stands the economies are very different, there is simply no comparison. A proto suit costs 200k, a rifter hull costs about the same. It's nothing to do with size.
Shattered Mirage The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 46	Posted - 2013.08.01 17:15:00 - [23] - Quote Nin Ker wrote: What about scale? 4000 players apparently took part in the biggest engagement in Eve... roughly 4000 play dust. I understand trying to compare size etc. But as it stands the economies are very different, there is simply no comparison. A proto suit costs 200k, a rifter hull costs about the same. It's nothing to do with size. ~3,500 players all day.... 3,500x24+84,000 players... or some **** like that. There is a post about it somewhere in this mess of threads.
Beld Errmon D3M3NT3D M1NDZ 758	Posted - 2013.08.01 17:21:00 - [24] - Quote Lost about 20mil today running tanks and dropships, many moments of fun, but the sour taste left over afterwards leaves me wondering how long I can have fun for shrug they ruined my mouse, ruined the gun mechanics i used to dominate with, tear this game is almost dead to me, i dunno if i can hold out for the vehicle balance patch CCP will probably just put a bandaid on vehicles and buff AV some more, its a numbers game after all and i doubt tankers fill the coffers.
cedz636 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 53	Posted - 2013.08.01 17:23:00 - [25] - Quote Alvor Jeskannen wrote: Halador Osiris wrote: What other systems can you guys think up? As a Gunloggi driver, all I can ask is this; Please, get rid of the ability for players to get to the top of skyscrapers. Forge gunners abuse it so much, that they pretty much own the map, and any ideas of calling in an HAV are forfeit, because the now god-status forge gunners can see EVERYTHING. Case in point? That map, with the four or so towers, and four capture points in skirmish. I had a decent cover position after calling in a Gunloggi, and as soon as I got in it, the forge gunner from the enemy team (who was by that point dominating the match from the top of a tower) called in a precision strike directly on top of me. I managed to scoot far enough from the center of the blast, flip on my 10% shield hardeners and my rep as I took damage, and ended up with about 200 shields left. (Out of a maximum of 5800.) What does he do then? He one-shot's me with his Ishukone Forge Gun. Fantastic. I'm not saying to nerf forge gun users, as most of them actually work for their kills, but please, for the love of the State, either change the shape of the top of skyscrapers so that people can't get on top of them, or just put an invisible wall there or something. I love how you suggest preventing players from reaching the tops of the towers when you sit behind your redline and blast your railgun into the batlefield.
Aardicus D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 5	Posted - 2013.08.01 21:44:00 - [26] - Quote I have heard that the LLAV has an inate 30% resist? If so I think this should be given to Heavy Vehicles. 30% to HAV's, 20% to MAV's, and 10% to LAV's.(Apply appropriately to Dropships) Then 'correct' the bugged armor reppers, and I'll not complain one bit. Nothing major needs tweeking after that. Shield tanks are happy, cause with shields inate resist to AV nades and swarms combined with this 'hull' resist, they would be beast anti-infantry. The current dropships are medium, so they'd get the 20%? anyway, just my .02 isk....
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 2811	Posted - 2013.08.01 22:00:00 - [27] - Quote Halador Osiris wrote: I find it funny that a frigate in EVE can cost a couple hundred thousand ISK, but a vehicle in DUST can cost a million. I'd like to add on that a frigate is roughly the length of a 747. EDIT: I'd like to note, only the cheapest of frigates will be several hundred thousand ISK, and only the most expensive DUST vehicles will cost over a million ISK, but the point still stands. >That awkward moment when you realize your HAV costs as much as a T1 fit spaceship.
Celeste Cyra Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2013.08.01 22:29:00 - [28] - Quote Infantry's dream http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSDhLDxaYak


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