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Gogo O'Dell
Psygod9
RISE of LEGION
14
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Posted - 2013.07.23 00:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
This post is long, but it is a way to allow newberries not to get proto stomped, allows vets opportunities for highly profitable and fair pubs, tanks to not be put against proto AV, and general happiness for every class. You can skip to the second post for the juicier bits, if you are lazy, but the first part is a good introduction. It is not a QQ, it is not a troll, it is not a rant. I won't be making an intelligent post for awhile so enjoy it.
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Okay, with the exception of a few obviously abused weapons (Charybdis + Flaylock), proper matchmaking would quell mutch of what is going to be called a rebellion on the forums, sometimes down the road.
First, off, I am a tanker first, and foremost, but I've messed around with a callogi/mass-driver fit (i actually am i logi, though), and I have pretty amazing Charybdis, with alts that have lasers, flaylocks, snipers, ars forges, swarms, av nades, and just about every weapon at the STD level (that includes lolcannon), so i have a pretty fair scope on how this game works. I also have been proto stomped on my alts, proto-stompED with my main, and played more CB/PC battles than a lot of players who started in Uprising have played games.
Second, a huge issue with new players leaving is that they play in the academy (hell, I love the academy, as battles are very dynamic and balanced) and love the game. The tanks are balanced against the AV (ive taken somas in there and gone 20:0 with a stock fit), but then other tanks get slaughtered by MLT av (provided there are a couple guys using it). There are also 1-0 redline rails or rifles in the average dom or skirmy, so most of the fighting is very balanced. The only thing missing from those battles is teamwork, and honestly, the flow of battle resembles a lot of PC battles I've played with 2 good corps fighting eachother to the bitter end.
However, the problem arises when they hit 2 mil SP or 10k WP and are thrown into the equivilant of null-sec. Now, I don't know how many of you play Eve, but TRY taking a Rifter with a very basic fit into null-sec by yourself, or even with similarly geared friends and see how long it takes you to instantaneously burst into flames the second you exit a gate- that is what leaving the battle academy feels like., although not a perfect comparison.
Matchmaking based on WP or SP sounds like a great idea, and it is, if not for some strangely UP or OP things-> tanks, LLAVs, flaylocks, and dropships.
First, tanks don't ACTUALLY suck as bad as people think they do when they aren't going against squads of PROTO AV. The issue is, if my character, Charlotte O'Dell is put in a match against Cubs and DS, then there is no way that tank will last more than 2 minutes after leaving the redline, should they decide that I don't get to tank that match. The case is not their proto gear, or my standard gear, but that they are being put together. I do not stand a chance. Even in Chromosome, it was pretty hard. During the Chromosome cup, PFBHz (newer crew) went against Team Players (old crew). It was pretty fun. I was using a relatively cheap fit for the time (around 800K) and every time they called in a tank (i think they had 1 tanker), i stomped the living hell out of it, but the problem was when Cubs decided that he didn't like me beating up on his team, so he chased me down and eventually took me out, but it wasnt nearly as easy as it would be for him, now. It was still a standard tank and he has a Gastun's forge, but I didn't get 2HK'd by the thing as i would, right now. That is a pretty good balance. A good tanker (although not on the same level as the G1 tankers of the time) against a good AV player and the proto av won, but not instantly.
I apologize for the story, but it does show that tanks were relatively balanced in Chromosome. Most tankers of the day didn't last more than 2 minutes outside of the rail against a couple proto AV guys, but the really good tankers of the time (Zitro, Hotch, Caeli, and Slap) were the most terrifying things on the battlefield every time I encountered them (i was still very new at that point). This meant that tanks were not win buttons, but potentially devistating weapons that required the pilot to know exactly what he was doing to succeed, much like the mass driver or duvolle on an assault are right now. There were games I would net 770k ISK when I was playing very well and the enemy team brought in countless vehicles, and others that I would get instakilled y better tankers or proto AV and die. In fact, killing tanks was an art back then. I remember this one time that I had my Sagaris and I was owning the team pretty much by myself; they didnt like that (was the 4 point map), so they set up an ambush for me with mines, forges, nades, and swarms. They baited me and suddenly I went from 7000 HP to 0 in less than 2 seconds. It took coordination, but it happened and they took out a 2.25 mil weapon in a second; now, this can be done by one man with LAI Dais and a swarm or forge. Tanks were farm from invincible if you could outthink them and infantry were paper targets if they didnt like thinking. I want to go back to that balance.
As tanks stand now, they could never have that kind of game in anyone's hands against that kind of AV effort, which is very wrong. By putting standard gear tanks against standard AV, it would bring that kind of balance back where the good tankers are rewarded and the bad ones go broke in a few days. |
Gogo O'Dell
Psygod9
RISE of LEGION
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 00:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Another part of gear-based matchmaking is the social aspect: I have friends that are noobs and I want to play withthem without having to make them fight proto bears, which is the case right now. My proposal would allow for the possibility of equipping proto-gear to a suit, without having full proto, unless one chooses to do so.
Tier 0- The Academy. 10k WP or 2M SP and kicked out. This only allows the newest players
Tier 1- Not militia, only, but based on a system that would only allow a fit with a low-meta-level-sum into the field. This means I COULD bring a prototype AR, but id be putting it on a mlt suit with no modules. Now im not punished for having proto gear, but i cant stomp so easily with it.
Tier 2- same concept as above, but allowing for the average all-standard gear fit. This where where you would see most tanks, as their gear does not exceed meta-1 (except some modules). PROTO av could be brought in here, but it wouldnt be possible to stack damage mods and have 600k shields with it so any scrub with a sniper could one-shot the suit or the tank could insta-gib with its blaster upon seeing the player.
Tier 3 - catered to advanced gear. A few tankers would show up here if they want to fit their meta 2,3, or 5 turrets and modules, or if they want challenge, but would mostly cater to the players with around 4-7mil SP who are not noobs anymore, but not quite ready to go against the proto gear.
Tier 4- proto gear. no tanks would likely show their face here, and it would have a very high meta-sum limit, allowing all but the most decked out suits used by players with skills completely maxed out.
Tier 5- Anything goes. Pretty much a PC battle.
I would also like to add that payouts increase every single tier, so that losing 5 suits in a meta 1 battle would, allow, proportionally, the same profit as losing 5 suits in a tier 5 battle. This way, using the proper suit in the proper tier will allow everyone to profit. One could argue that it would allow the proto players to make more money, and it would, but consider how fast they lose it when one suit is gone. Currently, using a proto suit more than twice in a pub match equates to a net-loss of ISK. balancing this way allows the loss of possibly 5 suits in any tier with the same kind of gear, and proportionally similar profit. I like the number 5 because any less and the risk v reward becomes too much for the average player to profit, and any less becomes too easy and CoD-like. This means that in a Tier 1 battle, where most suits cost 20k isk, the payout is 5 times that, so it would be 100+ the WP, kills, and support that was given as a bonus. For a battle with proto suits (tier 5), payouts would be 1 mil. Tanks would still be getting shafted, the making a tank last 10 battles in a pub match to profit would be required, but it'd be easier to do so than it is, currently.
Now, sure a squad of players who have been around forever could pop into a Tier 1 match and stomp the players their, but it would not be as bad as it is now and would have more to do with their skill as players and teamwork than their gear- it is the same in CoD (except for passive skills). Without balancing this way, tanks will need massive price reduction, a buff back to their former chromosome glory or better, or the addition of true proto tanks that can compete with proto av the same way std tanks do with std av.
Finding what the meta-sum for any of the tiers in should be decided by the players and the devs working together, as we all know how the devs can cater to forum idiots.
This proposal will balance the tanks we have right now, the newberry-QQ problem, and the proto players who are sick of challengless matches where a good battle happens once every 2 days, or only in PC. |
Gogo O'Dell
Psygod9
RISE of LEGION
17
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Posted - 2013.07.23 00:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Balancing on player performace (WP, KDR, etc) will put logis, dedicated av, and dropship pilots all in the same games while ar's, snipers, and tankers will end up in the same games. doesnt work bc gear and role affects a player's performance. alos, putting tanks against proto av is not fair and without a buff, is stupid to do. unless you can find a better way to be fair to make protos, noobs, and tanks happy, don't only give reason why it is bad. |
Gogo O'Dell
Psygod9
RISE of LEGION
19
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Posted - 2013.07.23 01:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
gbghg wrote:You make a rather convincing argument dell, one problem that occurred to me though is that vehicle play would be more or less nonexistent at higher tiers, right now for the simple fact that we don't have the vehicles, and later on because the price we can expect to pay for them and their likely usefulness and survivability (based on current vehicles and past trends) will either be so OP that it gets nerfed into the ground or will be so UP as to be way too expensive a coffin.
Well, it will likely be my last non-troll for a couple months so I thought I'd make it a good one.
Anyhow, on that note, I think the LLAV should only be allowed in higher tiers bc without 3 dudes having proto swarms (forges wont cut it), you will not be able to take it down without a tank or another llav with a scattered ion cannon, and that is the definition of OP.
Right now, it is a faster fix than buffing tanks, and it would allow for tanks to be competitive. However, it still wouldn't fix their usefulness in PC. That needs the addition of ADV and PRO tanks. At least with putting tanks only against STD and ADV gear, tankers can make money in pubs without redline sniping. (im against redline sniping). Now, we could wait for better tanks and not complain as much on the forums bc the balance is there to keep us away from gear that 2hk's us. |
Gogo O'Dell
Psygod9
RISE of LEGION
19
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 01:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I want to believe it mobius... but I can't.
My proto suit has a minimum of twice the EHP of a standard suit and my gun does 20% more damage + a slew of core skills.
There is a huge huge power gap between 16m with proto gear and 1m with standard gear. Not to mention im more familiar with the game mechanics too. We have to remember that, while the absolute difference especially between STD and PRO is huge, twice the eHP means about a second more fire for ARs and often no difference for weapons like FGs or SRs. Most of the time when i manage to kill protos it's because i got a critical flank at which point i often wipe out half a squad of shiny stuff before they even get to react properly. It's the same the other way around. Any lone wolf that is not a speed tanked shotgunner will do jack to my vigilant STD/ADV squad even if he's running full on PRO gear. 300 more eHP might sound like much but in the end it's one flaylock hit, two MD hits or about .10 seconds of accurate AR fire until this difference is overcome. I think Pubstomping is really more about the player behind that suit than the suit itself
It is part of it, yes, but when you take a full squad of prto players with great tactics against the same sort of squad with std gear, then the proto squad will always win. This is an issue. One has to balance based on the easiest to control variable, and as using WP/Death/Support/Kills as a ratio makes for a very messy combo (logis vs dropship pilots, only) and (assault v tanks v snipers only). Gear is the easiest way until someone comes up with the E=MC^2 of matchmaking, so to speak. |
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