DUST Search - here's what it will take to make logis keep to their intended role...

Sloth9230 wrote:

Jaqen Morghalis wrote:

Delta 749 wrote:

First off there are no militia logistics suits

Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first

Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one

Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny

Whatever happened to teamwork?

Your repair tool might not make you invincible, but I would hope that whoever you're using it on would have good reason to kill that guy who's trying to shoot the medic first!

Maybe people need to stop thinking in terms of the individual in what is supposed to be a team-based game?

Blah, blah, teamwork, blah.

Yeah, yeah, the power of friendship is nice Roll

, but any person who can't hold their own in combat is a liability to team.
And repair tools? in a game where everyone shild tanks and carries as little armor as possible... right, logis are only good because of their injectors. When are they ever going to get to use them if the guy that was defending them is already dead? Roll

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cranium79 ZionTCD 55	Posted - 2013.07.19 20:46:00 - [1] - Quote first off, i don't play logi. i respect the logi and all they do for us. this is only a hypothetical situation. i'm not trolling, and i actually don't completely agree with everything i'm about to write. who knows, it might actually be somewhat accepted, with proper opinions taken into consieration of course.... the proto logi: 1 high slot, 4-5 low slots, 4 equipment slots, SIDEARM only (no light weapon slot), keep armor and shield the same (possible buff). possibly bump cpu and pg up some. the reasoning... high slots have no logistical use (shield mods and damage mods). 1 is more than enough. 4 equipment slots allow the logi to carry 1 of each: nanite injector, repair tool, nanohive, drop uplink. the low slots allow enough cpu and pg mods to carry all proto equipment which is necessary for a logi to do their intended job. finally, limiting the logi to only a sidearm keeps the logi off of the assault role, and centered on their intended role. also, the lack of a light weapon frees up cpu and pg for equipment. advanced: 1 high, 3-4 low, 3-4 equipment slots, sidearm only. standard: 1 high 2-3 low, 2-3 equipment slots, sidearm only. militia: 0 high, 1-2 low, 2 equipment, sidearm only. over all shield, armor, cpu and pg can vary slightly amongst races. slots as well. just one constant... SIDEARM ONLY. no light weapon slot. let the comments begin. just keep the intended role of the logi in mind.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 1366	Posted - 2013.07.19 20:51:00 - [2] - Quote First off there are no militia logistics suits Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny
cranium79 ZionTCD 55	Posted - 2013.07.19 20:55:00 - [3] - Quote well, why not any militia logis? whatever happened to the skinweave? wasn't there one? sidearm only was a bad idea when you only had a pistol or smg... now you have the flylock. high slots can be negotiated. like i said, it's not written in stone. this post was to get people talking and suggesting.
Spycrab Potato Hold-Your-Fire 133	Posted - 2013.07.19 20:57:00 - [4] - Quote PFFFT. You want us to save your sorry butt, with just a sidearm? Isn't it bad enough we only have a Light Weapon?
Jaqen Morghalis Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 179	Posted - 2013.07.19 20:58:00 - [5] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: First off there are no militia logistics suits Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny Whatever happened to teamwork? Your repair tool might not make you invincible, but I would hope that whoever you're using it on would have good reason to kill that guy who's trying to shoot the medic first!
cranium79 ZionTCD 56	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:00:00 - [6] - Quote Jaqen Morghalis wrote: Delta 749 wrote: First off there are no militia logistics suits Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny Whatever happened to teamwork? Your repair tool might not make you invincible, but I would hope that whoever you're using it on would have good reason to kill that guy who's trying to shoot the medic first! that is the point. keep the logi with the troops. no lone wolf stuff. use us (especially the heavy) as shields.
MlDDLE MANGEMENT lMPurity 145	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:01:00 - [7] - Quote Absolutely not. This is a bad idea on 2 levels. The sidearm only debate has been dicussed previously, the short answer is no because Logis need to be able use a reliable primary weapon. Moreover high slot shielding is paramout to survivability for logis because they need a rapidly replenisble health system given how they are always in the thick of things. Moreover Logistics =/= Equipment *****. IT means battlefield logistics which is both a combination of equipment but also hacking/dehacking and scanning systems(passive and active). Most good logis have multiple fittings for different and varied tasks and thats is why the suit has so many slots and cpu/pg its to create a high level of versatility. The reason people choose logi suits over assault suits as their slayer suit is because lack of sidearm isnt a large enough disincentive to go into them and there isnt a large enough incentive in the assault suits themselves. There are 3 things that a slayer relies on Tank DPS Movement These are the 3 things that assault suits need to revolve around. There needs to be bonuses and base stats that focus on these 3 elements on the assault suits in order for them to make them worthwhile. That is why people choose the logi suits because the tradeoffs arent that bad. Nerfing the logi suits and pigeonholing them into being nothing but equipment jockeys is the wrong approach to solving this issue.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1041	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:01:00 - [8] - Quote So you're essentially saying that logis should have somewhere around 200-300 EHP at the proto level, and carry only a short range sidearm (of which 60% of the planned sidearms are still missing). Hm... seems a little... well terrible to me.
Spycrab Potato Hold-Your-Fire 133	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:02:00 - [9] - Quote Jaqen Morghalis wrote: Delta 749 wrote: First off there are no militia logistics suits Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny Whatever happened to teamwork? Your repair tool might not make you invincible, but I would hope that whoever you're using it on would have good reason to kill that guy who's trying to shoot the medic first! Blueberries don't give a crap about the medic. I am a medic so I protect mine, but the others don't care. All they want is my 33 hp/s.
Sloth9230 Deepspace Digital 2530	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:03:00 - [10] - Quote Jaqen Morghalis wrote: Delta 749 wrote: First off there are no militia logistics suits Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny Whatever happened to teamwork? Your repair tool might not make you invincible, but I would hope that whoever you're using it on would have good reason to kill that guy who's trying to shoot the medic first! Maybe people need to stop thinking in terms of the individual in what is supposed to be a team-based game? Blah, blah, teamwork, blah. Yeah, yeah, the power of friendship is nice , but any person who can't hold their own in combat is a liability to team. And repair tools? in a game where everyone shild tanks and carries as little armor as possible... right, logis are only good because of their injectors. When are they ever going to get to use them if the guy that was defending them is already dead?

cranium79 ZionTCD 56	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:04:00 - [11] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: So you're essentially saying that logis should have somewhere around 200-300 EHP at the proto level, and carry only a short range sidearm (of which 60% of the planned sidearms are still missing). Hm... seems a little... well terrible to me. as i've said before, high slots can be negotiated. base hp can be increased. i was thinking over 400 as a place to start.
Sloth9230 Deepspace Digital 2530	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:07:00 - [12] - Quote if i wanted to create a true medic, this is how I would go about it. Quote: I would have given them health somewhere in between assaults and heavies, speed somewhere in between assaults and scouts, a slightly lower slot count, and a side-arm instead of a light weapon. then you would have a true medic, but as it is, the only real difference between the two is side arm vs equipment. Also, I realize that I just suggested switching their light weapon for a side-arm, despite being one of the first ones to call the idea stupid whenever it pops up, but that's only because it's such a huge nerf that it should only happen if the suit gets huge buffs in other areas that help it be a better medic. Also, don't say, "you can just use flaylocks", they're getting nerfed next
MlDDLE MANGEMENT lMPurity 145	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:08:00 - [13] - Quote cranium79 wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: So you're essentially saying that logis should have somewhere around 200-300 EHP at the proto level, and carry only a short range sidearm (of which 60% of the planned sidearms are still missing). Hm... seems a little... well terrible to me. as i've said before, high slots can be negotiated. base hp can be increased. i was thinking over 400 as a place to start. Sweet so instead of one flaylock shot it will only take 2 to kill me
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD 85	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:09:00 - [14] - Quote I think only having a sidearm is kinda a joke, but they really should have far less high slots.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1228	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:10:00 - [15] - Quote This is why people shouldn't try to balance roles they don't play. The idea that everyone on the battlefield isn't a slayer is stupid. For the logi to "not get upppiddy" there needs to be a real role, not just a couple of equipment slots.
Sloth9230 Deepspace Digital 2530	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:11:00 - [16] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: I think only having a sidearm is kinda a joke, but they really should have far less high slots. No.
Soldiersaint Deepspace Digital 230	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:12:00 - [17] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Jaqen Morghalis wrote: Delta 749 wrote: First off there are no militia logistics suits Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny Whatever happened to teamwork? Your repair tool might not make you invincible, but I would hope that whoever you're using it on would have good reason to kill that guy who's trying to shoot the medic first! Maybe people need to stop thinking in terms of the individual in what is supposed to be a team-based game? Blah, blah, teamwork, blah. Yeah, yeah, the power of friendship is nice , but any person who can't hold their own in combat is a liability to team. And repair tools? in a game where everyone shild tanks and carries as little armor as possible... right, logis are only good because of their injectors. When are they ever going to get to use them if the guy that was defending them is already dead? THEN WHAT THE HELL DO I EXIST FOR? ARMOR TANKS WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO YOU GUYS? THESE SHIELD HIPSTERS ARE EVERYWHERE!.......
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 1368	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:12:00 - [18] - Quote Jaqen Morghalis wrote: Delta 749 wrote: First off there are no militia logistics suits Second they all need the high slots for health buffer reasons, just because I have a repair tool out does not make me invincible and any person with any sort of situational awareness at all is going to shoot the medic first Third sidearm only was one of the ideas people were kicking around for a while before but that idea was thoroughly dissected and generally agreed to be a fairly bad one Now you are thinking and I like that but logis need some survivability so they arent instagibbed when someone looks at them funny Whatever happened to teamwork? Your repair tool might not make you invincible, but I would hope that whoever you're using it on would have good reason to kill that guy who's trying to shoot the medic first! Maybe people need to stop thinking in terms of the individual in what is supposed to be a team-based game? Who knows, maybe they should be forced into playing TF2 for a while
cranium79 ZionTCD 56	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:14:00 - [19] - Quote Soldiersaint wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: [quote=Jaqen Morghalis][quote=Delta 749 THEN WHAT THE HELL DO I EXIST FOR? ARMOR TANKS WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO YOU GUYS? THESE SHIELD HIPSTERS ARE EVERYWHERE!....... that's because they nerfed the laser rifle. now shields have the advantage .
Sloth9230 Deepspace Digital 2530	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:14:00 - [20] - Quote cranium79 wrote: use us (especially the heavy) as shields. No offense, but heavies are usless to the team, you're a liablity, and asking logis to babysit them lowers the whole team's efficiency. There is nothing that a Logi + Heavy can do that two assaults with ARs couldn't. I don't know what it's going to take to make heavies useful, but right now they aren't even good for point defense, which is supposed to be their main role aside from AV.

P14GU3 The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 191	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:15:00 - [21] - Quote First off, let the sidearm thing die already. This is BY FAR the worst idea I have heard yet, and somehow people keep bringing it up. Play a logi for 1 month and come back and say the nonsense again. Your squad will die, and you will run away leaving them to bleed out because you cant defend yourself properly. I have stated many times what it will take to get the logi where it should be. Drop cpu and/or pg (gallente is pretty light on pg already, not sure about the others) on all logistics. Then, Logi Role Bonus, 10% reduction to cpu/pg on all equipment Racial Bonus, Lore acceptable tank bonus Keep slots the same, but this will force the more high end gear to be in the equipment slots. Using proto equipment now, leaves me with little grid for other proto mods (engineering 5.) The logi is meant to be a versatile killing/support machine, but the focus should be on equipment, leaving whatever cpu/pg is left for tank/dps. As it stands right now most people are doing tank/dps first. equipment second. Anyways, CCP has already said what they plan on doing. When it is feasible, they are going to give a bonus to equipment, like repper bonus, hive bonus, uplink bonus, ect..
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1041	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:16:00 - [22] - Quote I think they need to make equipment much more accessible imo. To be perfectly honest. I don't think equipment should have a fitting cost at all. They are self contained pieces of equipment, that should have their own power sources. Running higher level equipment should come at increased isk cost only. After some kind of change like that is made, where its no longer a situation of choosing between HP modules and equipment... then we can really start to disect how to separate the logi suit from the assault suit. Until then... logi suits are still just slow slayers with a few extra pieces of equipment and always will be. The fact of the matter is... true logis probably make up ~15% of the population, yet logi suits are probably around 60%. the reason is... there is little incentive for many slayers to not go logi atm. We'll just have to see what 1.4 has in store.
Sloth9230 Deepspace Digital 2530	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:21:00 - [23] - Quote Soldiersaint wrote: THEN WHAT THE HELL DO I EXIST FOR? ARMOR TANKS WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO YOU GUYS? THESE SHIELD HIPSTERS ARE EVERYWHERE!....... You my friend are valiant knight designed to slay drago.... no, wait, not dragons, oh, that's right, dropships
Sloth9230 Deepspace Digital 2530	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:23:00 - [24] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I think they need to make equipment much more accessible imo. To be perfectly honest. I don't think equipment should have a fitting cost at all. They are self contained pieces of equipment, that should have their own power sources. Running higher level equipment should come at increased isk cost only. After some kind of change like that is made, where its no longer a situation of choosing between HP modules and equipment... then we can really start to disect how to separate the logi suit from the assault suit. Until then... logi suits are still just slow slayers with a few extra pieces of equipment and always will be. The fact of the matter is... true logis probably make up ~15% of the population, yet logi suits are probably around 60%. the reason is... there is little incentive for many slayers to not go logi atm. We'll just have to see what 1.4 has in store. I'm pretty sure nanohives are the only equipment that's "self contained", but remote explosves most certainly are not. As for why Nanohives require PG/CPU? Fuq if I know
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 188	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:45:00 - [25] - Quote I think the real problem with logis(mainly cali logi) is how do you persuade(force really) logi suited players to invested more into their equipment on the suit more than their other capabilities(defensive and offenive),for a logi isn't one of great defensive or offensive ability but of role versatility out side of direct combat. Once CCP can figure this out everything else would fall into place on it's own,however it would go against that whole "freedom of playstyle in what ever suit you want" thing that they wanted to accomplish.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1230	Posted - 2013.07.20 01:08:00 - [26] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: I think the real problem with logis(mainly cali logi) is how do you persuade(force really) logi suited players to invested more into their equipment on the suit more than their other capabilities(defensive and offenive),for a logi isn't one of great defensive or offensive ability but of role versatility of roles outside of direct combat. Once CCP can figure this out everything else would fall into place on it's own,however it may go against that whole "freedom of playstyle in what ever suit you want" thing that they wanted to accomplish. Conceptually, this is pretty easy. You flesh out the role - meaning you give them additional and more interesting things to do. For instance, maybe salvaging or jamming or whatnot. Right now there aren't really noncombat roles, so everyone fashions their suit to be as combat oriented as possible - for the most part. AV is kinda fleshed out, logi sort of. Scouting is pretty bad. We really just have slayers and slightly crappier slayers (some with an extra doodad or two) at the moment.


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