DUST Search - Flaylock Balancing Idea

low genius wrote:

R'adeh Hunt wrote:

Seems a lot more sensible than some of the "omg, just remove the weapon" or "remove 80% of splash damage" comments flaylock threads normally attract Big smile

To be honest, the first thing they should do is bring fitting stats for the proto version in line with other proto sidearms...it's a bit light in that respect. Otherwise you're ideas aren't bad.

What they SHOULDN'T do is turn it into an "explosive scrambler pistol" as you note correctly, that would just remove diversity from the game. Of course they shouldn't overnerf it either and do what they did to the mass driver after their arguably crazy initial nerf.

The thing about the flaylock is that most ppl only really have an issue with the proto version. What they don't realise is that the other proto sidearms are pretty much just as deadly if you get the hang of it. A proto scrambler pistol for example does an insane amount of damage in the right hands Blink

except you have to aim a scrambler pistol.

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Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 59	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:53:00 - [1] - Quote There's a lot of debate about the Core Flaylock being OP. I don't really have an opinion either way. I lke seeing a variety of weapons out there other than ARs, and the Flaylock is a fun weapon with it's own "feel." One way to alter the balance could be to keep the damage per clip the same, but add a 4th round to the clip, so it requires 4 shots to do the same damage, giving your opponent a split-second longer to move out of the way. This would also buff the weapon as a finisher since you get an extra crack at trying to hit that scout at 2% health sprinting for cover before reloading. Another idea is to nerf the explosive radius slightly, but add an extra skill to the weapon to boost the radius back up. People who've invested the SP into it can still have the existing radius (which seems fairly reasonable to me for a sidearm AOE weapon) but it requires significant commitment and specialization to do so. I was thinking it could be a compromise solution that would both nerd and buff the weapon at the same time. I'm not particularly invested in this issues myself, except to say that I would be disappointed if CCP nerfs the Flaylock into an explosive version of the scrabler pistol because of all of the QQing--I like seeing diversity of weapons and play styles. Thoughts?
R'adeh Hunt The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 205	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:05:00 - [2] - Quote Seems a lot more sensible than some of the "omg, just remove the weapon" or "remove 80% of splash damage" comments flaylock threads normally attract To be honest, the first thing they should do is bring fitting stats for the proto version in line with other proto sidearms...it's a bit light in that respect. Otherwise you're ideas aren't bad. What they SHOULDN'T do is turn it into an "explosive scrambler pistol" as you note correctly, that would just remove diversity from the game. Of course they shouldn't overnerf it either and do what they did to the mass driver after their arguably crazy initial nerf. The thing about the flaylock is that most ppl only really have an issue with the proto version. What they don't realise is that the other proto sidearms are pretty much just as deadly if you get the hang of it. A proto scrambler pistol for example does an insane amount of damage in the right hands
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 188	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:06:00 - [3] - Quote the solution is to make people use it like a pistol, not a mass driver. give it ****** damage and a headshot bonus.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 188	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:07:00 - [4] - Quote R'adeh Hunt wrote: Seems a lot more sensible than some of the "omg, just remove the weapon" or "remove 80% of splash damage" comments flaylock threads normally attract To be honest, the first thing they should do is bring fitting stats for the proto version in line with other proto sidearms...it's a bit light in that respect. Otherwise you're ideas aren't bad. What they SHOULDN'T do is turn it into an "explosive scrambler pistol" as you note correctly, that would just remove diversity from the game. Of course they shouldn't overnerf it either and do what they did to the mass driver after their arguably crazy initial nerf. The thing about the flaylock is that most ppl only really have an issue with the proto version. What they don't realise is that the other proto sidearms are pretty much just as deadly if you get the hang of it. A proto scrambler pistol for example does an insane amount of damage in the right hands except you have to aim a scrambler pistol.
R'adeh Hunt The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 205	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:20:00 - [5] - Quote low genius wrote: R'adeh Hunt wrote: Seems a lot more sensible than some of the "omg, just remove the weapon" or "remove 80% of splash damage" comments flaylock threads normally attract To be honest, the first thing they should do is bring fitting stats for the proto version in line with other proto sidearms...it's a bit light in that respect. Otherwise you're ideas aren't bad. What they SHOULDN'T do is turn it into an "explosive scrambler pistol" as you note correctly, that would just remove diversity from the game. Of course they shouldn't overnerf it either and do what they did to the mass driver after their arguably crazy initial nerf. The thing about the flaylock is that most ppl only really have an issue with the proto version. What they don't realise is that the other proto sidearms are pretty much just as deadly if you get the hang of it. A proto scrambler pistol for example does an insane amount of damage in the right hands except you have to aim a scrambler pistol. And you have to lead a flaylock because of bullet flight time...so what's your point? At close range, the flaylock beats the scrambler pistol unless you're fighting heavies. But as soon as you move to mid range, the scrambler pistol is a gazillion times better and way more consistent with hits. Maybe it's because I used flaylocks for a good bit and know their weakness, but I'm really not dying to them any more than to ARs since I switched to mostly scrambler pistols. Could also be because I don't run militia or crappy fits as much...too many militia and crap fit people complain about damage output of a PROTO weapon ;)
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 844	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:27:00 - [6] - Quote The solution is to require more SP? no... not a solution at all. i've probably posted this 15 times now but the correct balance change is to normalize the blast radius to 1.5m for all variants and then change FP Op to 3% per level.
Scottie MaCallan Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 25	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:34:00 - [7] - Quote my biggest concern with the flaylock is that all the heated forum talk is going to end up nerfing the gun from STD. to PRO. completely out of competitive play. I've used all the variants, and as it is right now, the STD. variant can be pretty shoddy, although fixed AOE detection/desync (the same problem facing the MD previously) may have changed that (I haven't had much time with STD. recently). The ADV. is in a pretty sweet spot, it can take out STD & most ADV fits relatively well, but not really proto without some tactical skills (shotgun/flaylock combo? yes plz). for reference, I run an ADV. minnie light frame w/ shield extenders, speed mods, adv. shotgun & adv. flaylock (also flux grenades). I use the flaylock as a finisher, using my speed to either flux or shotgun people then switching to flaylock. I'd say I'm about 50/50 on direct or AOE hits, it depends on the speed & EHP of the suit I'm trying to take down, I'll aim for direct if I need to, or AOE if they're fast w/ lower EHP. but yes, the core flaylock is ridiculous. especially with dual wielding proto's, and espcially with the minnie bonus to clip size. I think a longer reload time across the board for all variants is the first step, if I don't kill with the first clip I'm usually done (as a scout) anyway, so I think that's fair. also the AOE radius on the proto needs to be dialed back some, the ADV. radius is in a really sweet spot for the gun, and the STD. radius is subpar (not really a complaint though, it is a STD. flaylock, it should be not ideal). so how about this? nerf the splash radius on the proto slightly (only a few 0.1's of a meter, no overkill), as well, and if that doesn't work, do a second balancing pass on the AOE damage of the proto. just keep in mind guys, awesome aiming skills are not the only metric of talented FPS play. so if I finish you with an AOE blast after I get the drop on you because I know how to close distance without being seen or hit, and after shotgunning you, don't scream OP
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 59	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:43:00 - [8] - Quote Scottie MaCallan wrote: ...for reference, I run an ADV. minnie light frame w/ shield extenders, speed mods, adv. shotgun & adv. flaylock (also flux grenades). I use the flaylock as a finisher, using my speed to either flux or shotgun people then switching to flaylock. I'd say I'm about 50/50 on direct or AOE hits, it depends on the speed & EHP of the suit I'm trying to take down, I'll aim for direct if I need to, or AOE if they're fast w/ lower EHP. How would adding an extra round with a proportional reduction in damage affect your gameplay?
R'adeh Hunt The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 205	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:58:00 - [9] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Scottie MaCallan wrote: ...for reference, I run an ADV. minnie light frame w/ shield extenders, speed mods, adv. shotgun & adv. flaylock (also flux grenades). I use the flaylock as a finisher, using my speed to either flux or shotgun people then switching to flaylock. I'd say I'm about 50/50 on direct or AOE hits, it depends on the speed & EHP of the suit I'm trying to take down, I'll aim for direct if I need to, or AOE if they're fast w/ lower EHP. How would adding an extra round with a proportional reduction in damage affect your gameplay? Burst damage would be lower...allowing opponents more time to get away and take cover. Of course most people don't seem to know what cover even is, so many seem to prefer the "run, gun & pray" approach
Scottie MaCallan Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 26	Posted - 2013.07.10 22:13:00 - [10] - Quote yea, as a CQC scout, the longer it takes me to kill, the more likely I will die first. It's possible an extra round wouldn't affect me too much, but it could turn a one-two combo, with one shotgun & one (or maybe two if I screw up) flaylock hits into a one-two-three dead combo where I'm the dead guy, even though I hit consistently. but your solution is also theoretically viable, and better than most of the discussions people have been having. It's just not ideal for my playstyle, so I wanted to point out an alternative

Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 395	Posted - 2013.07.11 01:52:00 - [11] - Quote Core Flaylock Pistol deals nearly the same amount of splash damage as a Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun. Core Flaylock has a larger blast radius than the Wiyrkomi Breach Forge even before calculating the bonus from Flaylock Operation. Core Flaylock is a side arm. Wiyrkomi Breach Forge is a Heavy Weapon. . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . _________ . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-GÇÿGÇ¥. . . . . . . . . .GÇ£~.,_ . . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-GÇ¥. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "-.,. . . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ", . . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\, . . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,} . . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.} . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:GÇ¥. . . ./ . . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./ . . . . . . . /__.(. . .GÇ£~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./ . . . . . . /(_. . GÇ¥~,_. . . ..GÇ£~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/ . . . .. .{.._$;_. . .GÇ¥=,_. . . .GÇ£-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~GÇ¥; /. .. .} . . .. . .((. . .~_. . . .GÇ¥=-._. . .GÇ£;,,./`. . /GÇ¥ . . . ./. .. ../ . . . .. . .\`~,. . ..GÇ£~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../ . . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-GÇ¥ . . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\ . . . . . . \`~.-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\|,./GÇª..\,__ ,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\|. . . . . . ..`=~-, . .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>GÇô==GÇ£ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 135	Posted - 2013.07.11 03:06:00 - [12] - Quote R'adeh Hunt wrote: Seems a lot more sensible than some of the "omg, just remove the weapon" or "remove 80% of splash damage" comments flaylock threads normally attract To be honest, the first thing they should do is bring fitting stats for the proto version in line with other proto sidearms...it's a bit light in that respect. Otherwise you're ideas aren't bad. What they SHOULDN'T do is turn it into an "explosive scrambler pistol" as you note correctly, that would just remove diversity from the game. Of course they shouldn't overnerf it either and do what they did to the mass driver after their arguably crazy initial nerf. The thing about the flaylock is that most ppl only really have an issue with the proto version. What they don't realise is that the other proto sidearms are pretty much just as deadly if you get the hang of it. A proto scrambler pistol for example does an insane amount of damage in the right hands Not really its the same as knives an if you have proficiency 5 an a damage mod you can get around that withe the specialist lock
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 136	Posted - 2013.07.11 03:10:00 - [13] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: The solution is to require more SP? no... not a solution at all. i've probably posted this 15 times now but the correct balance change is to normalize the blast radius to 1.5m for all variants and then change FP Op to 3% per level. That could work or turn it into a flux lock an use a mass driver with damage mods OHHHHH THE CRIES LOL
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 135	Posted - 2013.07.11 03:29:00 - [14] - Quote The flaylock direct damage is in line with the damage dealt by other sidearms, splash damage is way out of proportion to other weapons with splash damage. My opinion on this is that the blast radius on the standard and advanced models need to be increased(so you don't need operation to level 5 before it becomes useful) and splash damage needs to be reduced by half.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 4	Posted - 2013.07.11 05:13:00 - [15] - Quote The Standard Flaylock stats DAMAGE Direct 218 hp SPLASH DAMAGE 195 Blast radius 1meter (increases when gain the upgraded versions) Clip size 3 rounds Max ammo 21 (can be altered with skill points) Reload time 2.5 (same speed as a standard reload time for side arm) if anyone running less than 200 hp for armor or shielding which is anyone not using caldari medium or shield extenders. If you have have a direct hit with it, its a 210 hp damage to shielding, blast radius cuts in 1/ 20 so the damage is 195 hp. so scout guys are dead by blast radius, two shots blast radius for medium, 2 to 3 shots direct for heavy depending if they are using shield externders. Reload time is the same for the scrambler pistol, 2.5 seconds (check the weapons stats. for the record anything less than a 3 second reload is consider a fast reload) 1 meter blast radius is quite large considering its a sidearm and compared to firearm bullets which have to be a direct hit. But it is 1/4 the blast radius of a mass driver. Blast radius really does not need to be tighten. But also the damage for the mass driver on splash damage is cut in half while the sidearm still damn near does full damage for slightly missing your shot. Sidearms are designed to be a last stand or as i was taught in the military, to be a close quarters weapon WHEN necessary. For the extra reminder this is the Standard version of the Flaylock, with the advance version its a devastator towards players.


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