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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
1759
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Posted - 2013.07.03 20:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
My personal opinion aside, where does the CPM stand on the removal of strafe speed restrictions? |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
5609
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 21:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well I am not a major fan of it overall (as I am wanting more tactical less dancing) but you must admit that joyous chorus from the community means its closer to the sweet spot and overall its no where near as annoying as it was in early builds.
There are some complaints from various people using or dealing with straft such as running sideways faster than forwards though and would like to see those resolved but I have to let the dust from 1.2 to settle down to see which are the real complaints or not.
Overall I am still adjusting my controller and determining which graphical setting is best for me since I do have a far older PS3 model. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
1763
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Posted - 2013.07.03 21:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well I am not a major fan of it overall (as I am wanting more tactical less dancing) but you must admit that joyous chorus from the community means its closer to the sweet spot and overall its no where near as annoying as it was in early builds.
There are some complaints from various people using or dealing with straft such as running sideways faster than forwards though and would like to see those resolved but I have to let the dust from 1.2 to settle down to see which are the real complaints or not.
Overall I am still adjusting my controller and determining which graphical setting is best for me since I do have a far older PS3 model.
Despite the community, what would you say toward it affecting the game's health as a whole? Many of us feel that it is only further imbalancing the disparity between Armor/Shield tanking and has led tka negative impact on CQC combat. And please dont opt out with the "get gud" argument. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
5609
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Posted - 2013.07.03 21:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well I am not a major fan of it overall (as I am wanting more tactical less dancing) but you must admit that joyous chorus from the community means its closer to the sweet spot and overall its no where near as annoying as it was in early builds.
There are some complaints from various people using or dealing with straft such as running sideways faster than forwards though and would like to see those resolved but I have to let the dust from 1.2 to settle down to see which are the real complaints or not.
Overall I am still adjusting my controller and determining which graphical setting is best for me since I do have a far older PS3 model. Despite the community, what would you say toward it affecting the game's health as a whole? Many of us feel that it is only further imbalancing the disparity between Armor/Shield tanking and has led tka negative impact on CQC combat. And please dont opt out with the "get gud" argument.
The thing is there is a level of expectancy of controls and response and means of any shooter or various types of shooters. After all strafe speed should be high enough to duck around a corner you're shooting from and not be slow as molasses which would make corners terrible cover vs the waist high ones.
However the strafe speed shouldn't be so high you become a ghost due to bad hit detection and it becomes untraceable as a shooter. So far in this build I have no problems tracking people. |
Flux Raeder
WarRavens League of Infamy
114
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 01:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well I am not a major fan of it overall (as I am wanting more tactical less dancing) but you must admit that joyous chorus from the community means its closer to the sweet spot and overall its no where near as annoying as it was in early builds.
There are some complaints from various people using or dealing with straft such as running sideways faster than forwards though and would like to see those resolved but I have to let the dust from 1.2 to settle down to see which are the real complaints or not.
Overall I am still adjusting my controller and determining which graphical setting is best for me since I do have a far older PS3 model. Despite the community, what would you say toward it affecting the game's health as a whole? Many of us feel that it is only further imbalancing the disparity between Armor/Shield tanking and has led tka negative impact on CQC combat. And please dont opt out with the "get gud" argument. The thing is there is a level of expectancy of controls and response and means of any shooter or various types of shooters. After all strafe speed should be high enough to duck around a corner you're shooting from and not be slow as molasses which would make corners terrible cover vs the waist high ones. However the strafe speed shouldn't be so high you become a ghost due to bad hit detection and it becomes untraceable as a shooter. So far in this build I have no problems tracking people.
Potential remedy: sticky cover option? I would like to see a "slide to cover" option at some point, also maybe allow us to lean out from a toggle-able cover point like a corner instead of exposing the whole body |
Flux Raeder
WarRavens League of Infamy
114
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 01:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
On a related side-note: why are we allowing players to move faster when hit boxes are still so inaccurate? I am going to expand on this in another post but it is a serious problem people, one that deserves the full attention of the devs until it is fixed instead of worthless patches like "changing the way the females move in the war-barge".... SERIOUSLY?! THAT was really SO important that is more important in a shooter game than making sure that a bullet fired directly at a target actually reaches the target? Would someone please tell me wtf is going on here? |
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Inver Brass
467
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 05:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:My personal opinion aside, where does the CPM stand on the removal of strafe speed restrictions?
Haven't made up my mind up. I'm used to running a heavy suit, with heavy weapons obviously - but this patch I'm picking up Commando and a couple of light weapons so I'll be down in the trenches more than usual. I'll let you know what I think in a couple of days once I've gotten some extended hours in. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1683
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Posted - 2013.07.04 14:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
My personal opinion is very clear on the matter. It's better this way. And saying it takes out some tactical aspect of the game is imo untrue. The fact that the game and movement feels more responsive, more dynamic since 1.2 doesnt change the fact that you cant rush 4 guys by yourself straffing like a mad man. That you should use cover instead of being shot while running in plain sight.
I still got murdered by snipers, AR and every other weapon despite the fact that everything feels a lot more paced up.
Regarding CQC combat, i'd point out hit detection and not straffing speed. As yes, HD is still very much perfectible. But honestly, i have no issue taking down a scout at CQC by playing its own game.
Now, the debate about armor vs shield tanking is not new. Straf speed was already awfully more slow for armor than it was for shield before 1.2. And the solution doesnt lie in overall straff but in modules and penalty for those two type of defense.
So yeah, me likey. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
1792
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 18:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:My personal opinion is very clear on the matter. It's better this way. And saying it takes out some tactical aspect of the game is imo untrue. The fact that the game and movement feels more responsive, more dynamic since 1.2 doesnt change the fact that you cant rush 4 guys by yourself straffing like a mad man. That you should use cover instead of being shot while running in plain sight.
I still got murdered by snipers, AR and every other weapon despite the fact that everything feels a lot more paced up.
Regarding CQC combat, i'd point out hit detection and not straffing speed. As yes, HD is still very much perfectible. But honestly, i have no issue taking down a scout at CQC by playing its own game.
Now, the debate about armor vs shield tanking is not new. Straf speed was already awfully more slow for armor than it was for shield before 1.2. And the solution doesnt lie in overall straff but in modules and penalty for those two type of defense.
So yeah, me likey.
I'm starting to become more accustomed to the strafe speed, it doesn't bother me and I'm perhaps more effective, but I am worried for the health of the game. Id like to bring some more issues to the table:
A.) Would you correlate CQC hit detection with hit box lag, the issue that occurs when the client/server don't match up due to latency/ping? If so, how would you propose to combat this issue if it simply cannot be fixed technologically?
B.) How would you solve for Nova Knife hit detection, as many of my corporation's dedicated assassins now feel that they can't keep up with targets due to small field of vision and inconsistent aim assist on knives?
C.) From your talks with CCP, has there been any work done to alter Dropsuit bonuses to correlate with Armor / Shield preference or has the balancing act resorted strictly to current and newly implemented modules?
D.) Lastly, from your experience of Uprising in Fanfest 2013, an environment with far better performance than release, would you account the strafe speeds as something new or agree with CCP Wolfman in that there were no changes but increased performance simply allowed us to see the game as it really is?
I understand these are a lot of questions on multiple different topics, thank you for your patience. |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
148
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Posted - 2013.07.04 19:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Possible solution for this would the the addition of movement acceleration, as it stands now i dont think many people have a issue tracking a targets its when they start jumping and switching directions that the issue occurs as their is no indication that such a act is occurring it just happens and the target starts moving full speed in the other direction(This is more obvious with a keyboard user than a controller), if when they switch direction they were slowed down and had to gather momentum before going full speed again it would in theory at least stop alot of the CQC dances as well as add more feeling of being human and not just a floating camera with a gun.
Iam curious as to CPMs thought on the addition of movement acceleration. |
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
1793
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Posted - 2013.07.04 20:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ranger SnakeBlood wrote:Possible solution for this would the the addition of movement acceleration, as it stands now i dont think many people have a issue tracking a targets its when they start jumping and switching directions that the issue occurs as their is no indication that such a act is occurring it just happens and the target starts moving full speed in the other direction(This is more obvious with a keyboard user than a controller), if when they switch direction they were slowed down and had to gather momentum before going full speed again it would in theory at least stop alot of the CQC dances as well as add more feeling of being human and not just a floating camera with a gun.
Iam curious as to CPMs thought on the addition of movement acceleration.
I personally like the idea as it gives Dust a niche as being what it was reviewed as: "The thinking man's shooter"
However, I think there's going to be a lot of outcry about it what with the massive welcome the new strafe speeds have brougjt with the community. If armor plates affected acceleration/momentum, it would take away from a lot of the concern for movement speed penalties making armor tankers less concerned when applying large stacks of armor plates. It'd be like racinf a sedan and an truck, the Sedan taking off faster with less mass but the truck being able to match or even surpass it in speed once its acceleration has climbed due to having higher mass.
Now, there was one player here on the forums that stated that mass did not affect velocity in game or in real life, which makes me question the intelligence of the common player (lol) but I feel that he was partially correct but had the wrong way of ezplaining it. While mass doesn't necessarily affect velocity in space, it does affect acceleration a great deal and I think that Dust can hallmark on that as the difference between Armor and Shields without penalizing either.
I believe Iron Wolf brought this up a while back and I think its a good idea. It would make Shield Tankers more CQC/Skirmisher based and Armor Tankers more for lasting longer engagements. But this cannot happen without Dropsuits being looked at as a whole, not just the modules and mechanics. Armor Tankers, if by design, are supposed to have large pools of HP. This can only surpass shield tankers if bonuses like that attached to the Caldari Logistics are changed or a similar bonus applied for the opposite spectrum.
With that being said - yes, I feel this is a much needed addition that will not only add to the diversity and immersion of Dust but will help solve the imbalance we're currently seeing. |
Zyrus Amalomyn
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
217
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 10:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well I am not a major fan of it overall (as I am wanting more tactical less dancing) but you must admit that joyous chorus from the community means its closer to the sweet spot and overall its no where near as annoying as it was in early builds.
There are some complaints from various people using or dealing with straft such as running sideways faster than forwards though and would like to see those resolved but I have to let the dust from 1.2 to settle down to see which are the real complaints or not.
Overall I am still adjusting my controller and determining which graphical setting is best for me since I do have a far older PS3 model.
As a KB/M player and a fan of tactical thinking, I gotta say the new stafing speeds takes this game FAR closer to COD and battlefield in terms of playing DDR with guns.
Some toning back is needed. Fluid movement is good... but As it is, DDR 514 does not bring to mind 'good shooter'. It beings to mind arcadey casual bullshit.
If I wanted that, I'd play COD. Weaponry should NOT be accurate when you're running around so much. |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
899
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Considering aiming feels a little wonky after the hell we went through in 1.1 I'm not entirely sure the problem is the strafe speed - it may just be that we haven't adjusted yet. That said, it does feel a *little* fast. I'm curious to see how the community will feel about this in a few weeks. |
Zyrus Amalomyn
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
217
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 15:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
I can actually aim my rifles now with 1.2, where as before I was only effective with my shotgun. Aiming is much smoother.
A number of corpmates and myself think strafing is too fast now. People can literally strafe faster than turn speeds now, according to them.
I gotta admit, clos quarters fighting is basically a strafing war now too. |
Kain Spero
Internal Error. League of Infamy
1776
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 15:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
I would say that movement with the strafe speed feels a lot better. I'm actually using my DS3 about as much as my trackball now.
I'm like Iron Wolf in that my bread and butter was tactical shooters that had less "dancing in box" in them, but for Dust I think it's a good change. |
Zyrus Amalomyn
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
217
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 15:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
It's CODified. Pub matches are 'who can out strafe the other guy' now. There is no room for tactics there. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1805
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 18:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:Considering aiming feels a little wonky after the hell we went through in 1.1 I'm not entirely sure the problem is the strafe speed - it may just be that we haven't adjusted yet. That said, it does feel a *little* fast. I'm curious to see how the community will feel about this in a few weeks.
I agree if only because Ive seen some magical **** happen when using a shotgun. You dont really notice it until youre up close and personal, but despite teleporting the bunny hopping number has definitely become more effective at dodging shotgun blasts. Ive seen guys have sparks fly off their helmet but because they were strafing so fast it didnt register the hit.
Hit box lag is an odd thing to account for in Dust. The only way to tell if youve got good ping is through FW matches but it only shows when the battle is enabled, by which point the match is normally full. So, do I aim at him or behind him? Either or, hes usually strafing too fast for me to tell where his hit box is.
That and personal opinion (not relevant at all) says it kinda kills the immersion. I expect this from Scouts but Amarr Assault suits is a bit of a stretch.... |
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Inver Brass
471
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 00:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Hit box lag is an odd thing to account for in Dust. The only way to tell if youve got good ping is through FW matches but it only shows when the battle is enabled, by which point the match is normally full. So, do I aim at him or behind him? Either or, hes usually strafing too fast for me to tell where his hit box is.
That and personal opinion (not relevant at all) says it kinda kills the immersion. I expect this from Scouts but Amarr Assault suits is a bit of a stretch....
This is why I think its far too early to cry foul on the strafe speed being a poor design choice - its complicated by a performance issue, which CCP is presumably working on fixing. Should we be expecting them to balance and design around each stage of the game's performance? It's multiple times the amount of work as it would be to balance the game around a stable performance environment, while simultaneously bringing the live experience in line with that experience.
If the 1.3, 1.4, and 1.5 patches continue the trend that we've begun with 1.2, than we should be extremely cautious about rushing to judgement about gameplay balance until we've seen this recent push reach the end of its arc and we have a better sense of what to expect in terms of hitbox and detection behavior. This goes without saying for MOST balance issues, but this is also the first time we've seen a major coordinated effort inside CCP to crush the worst performance offenders. Now more than ever am I willing to kick back a little and let the chips fall before reading into them too much. |
Appia Vibbia
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
140
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 14:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
When holding a Heavy weapon, you strafe faster than you walk forward. That sums up what I think about changes to strafe speed. |
Ghost Kaisar
Intrepidus XI EoN.
134
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:When holding a Heavy weapon, you strafe faster than you walk forward. That sums up what I think about changes to strafe speed.
Agreed. I have been killed far too much by Heavies in CQC for my liking. Run up to knife one, get zero damage because of hit detection, and then watch as he strafes in circles around me spraying HMG all the way. I feel no less moblie than a heavy when it comes to strafe speeds. |
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Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
487
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 13:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
I use a Gallente Logi, so I have a couple armor plates on. Even at 20 meters out and max controller sensitivity, I can not turn fast enough while ADS to track shield tanked medium suits and all scouts while they're strafing, basically forcing me to use the horribly inaccurate hip fire at ranges it's not viable.
That should pretty well explain what my opinion is. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5275
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 16:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
I personally hate the new strafe speeds, far too high and artificial for my tastes.
Regardless, I can't seem to stop murdering reds...sooo.....
::shrugs:: |
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC
TYRANNY of EVIL MEN
17
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well for me its like this, trying to justify the need to make a merc less accurate based on his movement because he would not be accurate in real life as one poster put it seems to be an odd thought. I mean how much of what goes on in this game is accurate irl? Ok now that the sillyness of that argument has been smashed, lets move on to the real issue, its difficult to learn to strafe and be accurate, and its difficult to hit a good strafer, and in a game with a high hp model that challenge is multiplied. So my perspective for the following opinion comes from my experience in Halo 1 CE for PC. This is over a 10 year old game, played on pc with kb/mouse, in halo you also had a fairly high hp model though it was never expressed with hp you could consistently use the best weapon in the game the pistol as it was super op, and if your aim was good you could get a 3sk, or 3 shot kill, as long as all 3 shots where to the head, the counter to this was to either kill your opponent first or learn to move really well, this did not mean jumping, any good fps will tell you that jumping makes the person easier to track, anticipate, and hit as the ability to determine where the jump will end allows you to shoot ahead of the movement. This ultimately lead to the best shooters being those who were accurate and also very good strafers. To complicate this more in halo you had a latency that was built into the hit detection, heres how it worked, lets say back then player A had a great connection of 15megs, player A could look on the "killboard" see what was called his ping, ping gave a relative number to your lag in relation to the server and other players. So if player A was lucky he would hit f1 to view the his ping and it would be 33 or 66 the lower the better. Player B however had cheap internet and his ping might be 133, 99,100, or even 167. What this did was create something wonderful, this lag would make it so if the person was standing still you could hit them square on, however, if the person was moving left or right in strafe the targeting reticle would have to be ahead of that movement and how far ahead was based on 2 things, distance to target and ping. So if your ping or lag was low like 33 as in player A you could almost put it square on and get reg, or registration, but player B with his fail hard connection might need to go as much as 1 full reticle ahead of the target. So this lag created the kind of lead you would have in real life trying to shoot moving targets at a distance, this meant when the victim was moving left I had to place my reticle more left and when he suddenly jerked back right I had to move my reticle all the way to the other side of the head, this lead to snapping the mouse back and forth. The best thing was your range was unique to your mouse, machine, and internet connection, it couldnt be duplicated on your friends pc because you learn your range. Fortunately as a community this was something we mastered due to simply how accurate the mouse can be, this is a good balance because of lead on a moving target and the players ability to strafe and dust might want to consider a similar model, lead already exists in the forge guns. For those of you going what the heck is he talking about, here is a you tube link to a montage I made back in the day of the original Halo, if you can forgive my bad editing it illustrates the lead very well.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxKebb3gT8M
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Ghost Kaisar
Intrepidus XI EoN.
206
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 02:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
^DEAR GOD, WHAT A FREAKING WALL OF TEXT
PARAGRAPH THAT MONSTER |
Doyle Reese
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
353
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 06:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
I feel I get turned on by too many heavies for my liking with the new strafe speeds :( |
Ghost Kaisar
Intrepidus XI EoN.
209
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
By the way, with the unification of Strafe Speeds and Turning Speeds, will the scout be getting any new abilites.
You guys realize you took away a staple point for the light frame class right? The whole, "less armor = more speed and maneuverability". You have kinda just turned it into "less armor = more speed" and with the aiming fixes and speed of the current scout, that we will need ALOT more speed to survive when it only takes 1/12 of an AR clip to kill us right?
5 shots at 750 RPM = 12 shots a second (theoretical). We can die in less than a second, and you expect us to find cover by then? |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2978
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 00:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well I am not a major fan of it overall (as I am wanting more tactical less dancing) but you must admit that joyous chorus from the community means its closer to the sweet spot and overall its no where near as annoying as it was in early builds.
There are some complaints from various people using or dealing with straft such as running sideways faster than forwards though and would like to see those resolved but I have to let the dust from 1.2 to settle down to see which are the real complaints or not.
Overall I am still adjusting my controller and determining which graphical setting is best for me since I do have a far older PS3 model. Sometimes the community shouldn't be listened to, if we want the game to stay unique. I'm pretty sure that most of the support for the strafe speed increase was from people who want the combat to be like Halo's strafe wars, where cover is never used.
To put it differently, if everything was up to the community, this would be a clone of some other shooter with a different skin. |
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