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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
292
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Posted - 2013.06.24 02:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been thinkin of different ways to make Character Development more in depth. Currently the Races and Bloodlines we choose when making our character are of no consequence when we beginning developing our Mercenaries. I would love to see this changed.
Having certain benefits and even drawbacks to choosing one race over another in RPGs has been a staple of the genre since the earliest days of video gaming. I see no reason why DUST 514 would not benefit from adopting this element.
In the linked spreadsheets I have outlined some basic concepts that could be incorporated easily into dust. These ideas center around having bonuses to our Race and Bloodlines, the class we choose to play, and an extra bonus for using Dropsuits made by our own race!
I believe these gear bonuses could also apply to weaponry and vehicles as well. The basic concept here is that all gear would have a static bonus associated with it, however in order to be able to take advantage of the bonus one would have to be of the Race who created the particular piece of gear whether it be vehicles, their turret weaponry, handheld weapons, explosives, equipment or modules. The bonuses could literally be on anything a mercenaries could use! Any mercenary could still use any piece of gear, but they would benefit more from gear designed by their own Race.
I have also outlined some preliminary Racial bonuses in a new skill tree entitled Mercenary Culture Training. This is where bonuses for being a particular Race and Bloodline are covered. I decided to make all Racial and Bloodline Bonuses learnable to all Clone Mercenaries here is why:
One of the features of DUST is the player controlled Corporations. In these, many different Mercs from many backgrounds band together for the profit of the Corp. However haven't you always wondered how that Minmatar Logi works so well with that Amarr Sentinel, or why the Gallente and Caldari Assault Soldier fight right along side eachother? My proposal offers a solution to this question by educating Mercs in the cultural traditions of their fellow Corpmates! I mean let's face it if Mercs cannot tolerate eachother because of who they are, their Corp is doomed to fail from infighting and prejudice. Just a ssmall lore explanation as part of what lead me to this.
Please take a look and feel free to offer suggestions to improve upon it!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aje8xVYW4a2VdERPcU1fa05uY3ZMNmVYcUtqZTd1RVE&output=htmlR |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
293
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Posted - 2013.06.24 03:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oh I forgot to add that with the implementation of this would come the offer to change your race.
The Roles would still carry their Role Bonus regardless of what Race you are.
Each Race and Bloodline would have an inherent bonus active regardless of what suit they wear or what gun they use.
Then on top of this each Race would get an added static bonus simply by being loyal to their Race and using equipment designed by and for their own Race. This amount wouldn't be much, just enough to give a slight advantage in some respect in keeping with the Racial Fighting properties in Eve lore. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
293
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 03:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:This does not happen in EVE you are not penalised fr making specific racially aligned choices, all that matters is what you skill into and that I feel should remain the core of the game.
Lets be honest while its true the Amarr use laser weaponry there is no reason why they are any better at it than say a Gallentean who has also had the same weapons training. According to my proposal no one is necessarily "punished" for choosing a race or "locked out" of any playstyle. You can train in the ways of Amarr if you are Minmatar, but you could train as Minmatar further. The difference is the Amarr would be able to train in their racial skill set just a bit further than another race.
If the static bonuses are not in keeping with lore they could be abandoned. However I honestly feel like I should get a bonus for using Minmatar Gear since I'm Minmatar. Caldari should get a bonus for being Caldari, etc, etc.
Look at sports, If you spent your entire life learning how to play basketball and training for that, you would be able to learn football any time you wanted, but you would always be better at basketball.
At the same time if you spent your entire life training skills to play football, you could learn to play basketball, but you would never be quite as good as the basketball player above. However, you would always be better at football than the basketball player. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
293
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 03:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Croned wrote:Who's gonna inform the new users? This would of course be detailed in the tutorials.
CCP could even alllow a one time Change of Race.
Come to think of it I believe they have confirmed the future addition of a Race change for AUR.
Indeed they have:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=865744#post865744 |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
293
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 03:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Yeah I saw and stomped some of your guys today. Be Reclaimed Minnie scum
((OOC- I guess though the real thing would be to have racial video scenes, etc that EXPLAIN THIS. FPSers aren't the brightest gamers in the basement....they need to be told these things.))
Funny with your extreme Racial and Religious feelings of superiority you can't even properly quote this "Minnie acum" you presume to look down upon!
Come and reclaim me if you think you can.
If you can manage to pull your Imperialistic nose out of your empresses' bottom. Don't hate my people because we took from your master-erm rulers what you are to blind and brainwashed to notice you live without! To afraid to stand against tyranny should you ever see the light! I'll CRUSH you worm! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!!!!!!!! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
293
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 04:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Yeah I saw and stomped some of your guys today. Be Reclaimed Minnie scum
((OOC- I guess though the real thing would be to have racial video scenes, etc that EXPLAIN THIS. FPSers aren't the brightest gamers in the basement....they need to be told these things.))
Funny with your extreme Racial and Religious feelings of superiority you can't even properly quote this "Minnie acum" you presume to look down upon! Come and reclaim me if you think you can. If you can manage to pull your Imperialistic nose out of your empresses' bottom. Don't hate my people because we took from your master-erm rulers what you are to blind and brainwashed to notice you live without! To afraid to stand against tyranny should you ever see the light! I'll CRUSH you worm! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!!!!!!!! Firstly OOC- Lore wise you were only able to escape because of a Jovian victory, delusions of self created independence are admirable but na+»ve. Also I find OOC come back when relating to RP IC stuff is kind of tacky so Ill keep my stuff separate. EDIT- I don't get the Minnie acum thing? its spelt right on my monitor. IC- I seek to bring the light of god to you and your people, why do you resist God's grace and the magnanimous gestures of our Empress Jamyll? If the light of your god and the grace of your empress is for me and my people to be bound in chains, I'll let the glow of my HMG light my way to dance through the darkness as I use it to soak the soil with Amarr blood! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
294
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 04:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Wolfica wrote:NO!!! for the CORPORATION!!!
Your Megacorps are divided and as such shall crumble in time! The bonds which strengthen the Tribes grow stronger by the day!
Let freedom reign in the shadows the light of their god casts beyond the crumbling walls of your economic mastery! For as those walls crumble into heaps, the shadows are multiplied! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
294
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 05:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Edit: I do like this idea though. in what other MMO do you not see racial bonuses, or skill bonuses. If I chose to use a heavy weapon then I would get a bonus in that skill, and all other players are able to skill into that but it take mores time....
I like the basic suit for that race unlock though. I think this would be the most fair way to go... even though EVE is one of the most unfair games of all time. because its controlled by the players. maybe the bonus on top of that could just be a lower SP cost.[/quote]
Thanks for your support.
If you take a look at the skill tree you will see that by unlocking Basic Light frames for instance, you would have access to all Race's Basic Frames. I structured it this way mainly because the current system offers no racial bonus until you begin speccing into Specialties. I feel that the Basic Frames should at least be imbued with a Racial bonus this way it feels like less of a grind and is more immersive. These are the static bonuses I mentioned. I'm revising to say that if you wear a suit that is not one from your race, you must be skilled into that race under the Mercenary Culture Education skill to be able to utilize the bonus. You can, however wear the suit without receiving the static bonus it offers.
Then when one finally gets the Specialty Suits they may have a racial bonus, static Dropsuits bonus, and Specialty bonus along with any bonuses trained under Mercenary Cultural Education.
I'm also suggesting the skills under the Mercenary Cultural Education skill be high multipliers. I'm thinking like a 7 times starting at the 18,000 n some increment. The Bloodline skills would have 1 higher multiplier than their respective prerequisite. It should be a significant SP sink to train these skills. One of the highest imho. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
294
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 05:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wolfica wrote:but if our walls crumble then there is nothing to cast the shadow that you live in.
also jaraiya you spelt it "a"*** instead of "s"*** so you miss quoted him
Edit: -------------------------acum--------and----- scum
looks like CCP doesn't like that word Many smaller shadows free to come and go, yet closely intertwined rather than fewer large shadows threatening to encompass all in fear, that when exposed to the light of justice shrink in the very fear they try to wield, are the source of true power and strength. Each being free from the rule of another, yet bound to his neighbor by this common thread.
Yea that was a typo. Big thumbs tiny touchscreen keyboard on my EVO 4G |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
295
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 14:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:It's interesting but I think a better way to do this would be to give races certain bonuses to learning skills - there's something similar in Eve. When you choose a race there are certain skills that that race gets a reduction in SP required to train. Once or twice a year you can change which skillsets these are without having to change your race. This removes static and permanent bonuses and only affects the rate of training but reinforces your idea that race and bloodline should matter This is an interesting concept also familiar to many RPG games. I believe Elder Scrolls Oblivion had something similar that allowed you to gain more experience in 3 particular skills according to the sign you were born under (if memory serves). In Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas you could do a few things to advance faster and be better at certain skillls such as Tag 3 skills during character creation, and choose Perks which granted bonuses to a particular skill.
I would simply incorporate this into my Idea by lowering the Multiplier for your race's skills under the MercenaryCultural Education line. |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
295
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 15:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:No.
The greatest reason being that kind of initial commitment to some cause/style only hurts new player experience. Either they have to study before even creating the char (bye bye fast get onboard) or they most likely handicap themselves. In my proposal the bonuses would be explained during character creation. This wouldn't add much time to the process at all. Most gamers already know what their playstyle is, so it would not be difficult for them to choose the Race which compliments this. If by some small chance they feel they made the wrong choice or after seeing other playstyles and talking to other player about diferent races, they would have the option to change their race after finishing the Academy.
So I honestly don't see how it would hurt new player experience or cause them to handicap themselves. However if it ended up being an issue, removing the Racial and Bloodline bonuses from the Dropsuit Command skill would solve this. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
297
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 16:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Can't view the spreadsheet Was updating the spreadsheet. Added a few ideas for Bloodline bonuses, role bonuses and made minor changes based on feedback.
Please try to view again. Updated Link.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aje8xVYW4a2VdERPcU1fa05uY3ZMNmVYcUtqZTd1RVE&output=html |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 17:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Updated Spreadsheet to include suggested Bonuses for All Races and Bloodlines as well as Suggested bonuses for Roles and suggested Static Dropsuit Bonuses.
Take a look. Feel free to give feedback and suggestions on The bonuses or the numbers. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 18:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Wolfica wrote:well they could give every one a respect, and the ability to re pick their race, also in the definition of each race it can give the bonuses for picking that race, like it did when you picked what type of suit you wanted in beta, enforcer, sentinel, and i forget the rest. A respec wouldn't necessarily be required unless players were specced into more than one Race Basic Frames and Specialties, which is unlikely. Even if that were the case though, those players would simply have those SP refunded or allocated toward the progression of the respective Basic Frames and Specialty Roles, with any remaining going back to the unallocated pool.
On the other hand, it may simply be easier to give a global respec for this.
I hope I explained that clear enough.
As far as the Racial and Bloodline skills, these could be treated like any other Expansion because that is essentially what it is.
The ability to re choose a Race and Bloodline would definitely be in order though. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 19:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Stands Alone wrote:Master J,i havent yet read through all of the thread. but i would have to disagree so far on what i have read. When they implement alignment and status like in EVE, which they will do, this will be the your MMO side. You are rewarded/punished through your actions as you play.
example: as you fight for the minmatar, your status with amarr will lower with every battle. losing your access to special weapons only received through the loyalty point (LP) system that is currently in EVE. these faction items are awesome and can only be received by choosing to align with a specific faction while losing access to the opposing factions' special equipment.
we do need more of the MMO feel to this game, but dont worry, its coming, in the form of EVE role play. I'm sorry, but it seems that you have missed the point of my thread.
I'm fully aware of the future reward benefits to siding with a particulate faction. Any one from any race can achieve this simply by siding with a faction and that is fine.
This thread is about is having more in depth character development. Simply being a particular Race and Bloodline should mean something. Otherwise why even have the feature. They could simply make us all generic Clones with no Racial affiliation and achieve what we currently have for character development, as well as the future LP system. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 20:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Stands Alone wrote:it doesnt affect it in EVE, why should it in dust? your affects and abilities are should not be something given, only earned through player actions
a minmatar merc fighting for amarr will get the same benifits as an amarr, why? because he fought and worked for them, not because he was given them at the beginning.
amarr who is in high standings decides to defect to minmatar will be punished with the low status with minmatar from fighting against them by choice, delaying the time that he will be rewarded with access to minnie faction items.
Im highly against any race bonuses because those are not earned or affected by actions, and you cannot cross train and get creative with crazy fittings.
Its very very rare, but sometime you will see a minmatar ship using amarr guns. its not as effective statistically, but its not expected, making it effective when put in use.
You cannot earn new special abilities only new types of gear.
Under my Proposal Each Race has its own unique abilities. One can, however train into the abilities of another Race. Mercenaries can train higher in the abilities of their own Race and Bloodline, adding significant depth and meaning to who you choose to be.
Nothing is given because it is all under the same skill system that we currently have unless you want to count the Static Dropsuit Bonuses.
Although nothing is given, it would be easier to train into the skill set corresponding to your particular race. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 20:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Stands Alone wrote:Stands Alone wrote:it doesnt affect it in EVE, why should it in dust? your affects and abilities are should not be something given, only earned through player actions
a minmatar merc fighting for amarr will get the same benifits as an amarr, why? because he fought and worked for them, not because he was given them at the beginning.
amarr who is in high standings decides to defect to minmatar will be punished with the low status with minmatar from fighting against them by choice, delaying the time that he will be rewarded with access to minnie faction items.
Im highly against any race bonuses because those are not earned or affected by actions, and you cannot cross train and get creative with crazy fittings.
Its very very rare, but sometime you will see a minmatar ship using amarr guns. its not as effective statistically, but its not expected, making it effective when put in use. race bonuses would abolish the creativity that can happen with fitting because why use a laser as a minnie when you get 25% more damage for using a minnie gun? they know whats coming and you wont using anything else ever Again you could train the same skills as Amarr if you are Minmatar, it would just cost more SP for you than for a Minmatar. Likewise fore all other Races.
The added bonus to the Dropsuit Command skill could be removed from the idea altogether, but I don't think it should. Like I said choosing to be a particular Race and Bloodline should carry some weight. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 20:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Stands Alone wrote:it doesnt affect it in EVE, why should it in dust? Although they occupy the same universe, they are still two completely different games. Not everything about them has to be exactly the same. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
300
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 14:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Updated Spreadsheet to add new skills to the "Basic Frames" line. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
332
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Posted - 2013.06.28 16:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Does anyone have anything to contribute to this idea? |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
332
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Posted - 2013.06.28 16:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:I have to agree with the others, we are not racist and there is no need to promote racism. Racism was why almost everyone rolled Caldari when EVE first came out. Caldari had a really good racial ability. However I think its also due to how awesome the corporate life is lol. But yes EVE had Racism and then they took it away. That is why you don't see it here.
Your race will play an important part when the facial portrait thing comes out. Did you even read the entire thread or bother to look at the spreadsheets?
What does....
How is it...
I just cant...
/facepalm |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
332
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
I don't really consider my "picture" as being very in depth and immersive character development. It's has no bearing on functionality whatsoever. In my proposal you would be able to train into the skills of another Race and Bloodline it would simply take more SP than the skills of your own. Please, when you can, take a look at the spreadsheets and everything proposed therein. Then leave feedback on what you like about it or whqt you would change. I did spend quite a bit of time coming up with all of this, and would not have you simply dismiss it in its entirety so easily. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
333
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I don't really consider my "picture" as being very in depth and immersive character development. It's has no bearing on functionality whatsoever. In my proposal you would be able to train into the skills of another Race and Bloodline it would simply take more SP than the skills of your own. Please, when you can, take a look at the spreadsheets and everything proposed therein. Then leave feedback on what you like about it or whqt you would change. I did spend quite a bit of time coming up with all of this, and would not have you simply dismiss it in its entirety so easily. Yea sure, I can do that. If all you mean is just a SP boost for Race and Ally skills, then that shouldn't be to big a deal. However it does run into the problem that a Newberry has no idea which weapon works best and would probably just want to reroll his toon as soon as he realizes that the Lazer Rifle wasn't what he thought it would be and the Railgun was much better and that like 3 Million SP mountain to go to Railgun 5 with upgrades is alittle to high to climb. Then again one could argue that this let's dillema can very well exist with the current state of character development. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
333
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 19:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:You're right, our ideas are similar. Though I do like idea of the Merc Cultural tree, I'm afraid that by allowing so many bonuses that apply at all times might give rise to a race of super-supersoldiers that no new player would have a chance to fight against. I also still prefer grouping suits based on race not class. It feels right to me to have similar tech grouped together.
I particularly love the idea of the MERC Cultural Tree. It would add so much to the RPG aspect of Dust. I also really like bthe role bonuses in my idea.
By making the multiplier and initial investment significant ennough it would be a very very long time before that could happen. By then we would have PvE and other things aside from PvP to give vets things to do besides lolcrush the weak and n00bs something to do besides get crushed.
I suggest something like a 5x for Racial Skills (if my Dropsuit Command bonus was dropped 7x if not) and maybe 9x for Bloodlines with an initial SP investment of 18k and some change on both.
I do like your Dropsuit skill tree design. It would allow players to gain their preffered Race's bonus early on. I feel this is a necessary function in any game with RPG aspects.
What in particular do you like most from my ideas that you would incorporate into your's? |
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