DUST Search - Was it worth it? Going to node-based skills?

Agent Joseph wrote:

Presenting complex information in a format that players can actually understand is not a waste of time. It's actually pretty damn important.

CCP doesn't document their game systems. Everyone knows this. (Evidence: 10 years of EvE.) They create them. Sometimes they expose them transparently at the data level (via APIs) and then they wait for players to reverse-engineer them and document them. It's cost effective for CCP. And it's an enrichment activity for the players, keeping them from wasting their time on non-game activities.

However, this strategy is also deeply, fundamentally stupid.

A metaphor: imagine a restaurant that serves an ethnic cuisine nobody locally has ever heard of. The owner doesn't put pictures in the menu. He doesn't write descriptions of the meals. He just lists their foreign names that his customers can't understand. Adventurous people might come and try it. They might even be pleasantly surprised and tell their friends. But will the restaurant be a success overall? Doubtful.

You actually need to make your products accessible to your customers. To the dismissive hacks who say this is just for COD players, that's stupid. You didn't know what skills did what either. And so you made a list on paper. I bet you even drew little lines showing the pre-requisites, and you ... OMG SKILL NODES! BUSTED.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 607	Posted - 2013.06.17 20:49:00 - [1] - Quote All that was gained was a pretty UI to make it easier for COD players to figgure out their skills. But all the information was there before, if people could read... Find target, pen/paper make list of pre-req's. Skill into them. Wow that was hard! But now we've gained a severe limitation to how skills in Dust. The cost of setting up skills for this UI is that now everything is linear. While maxing skills for some weapon or suit, there is 0% cross over. (A common complaint about Planetside 2). Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. What this ends up meaning is less horizontal skill flexibility, and more SP sinks and grinding. Eve's system worked better I think, even if it did require a second grade education to maneuver.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 608	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:04:00 - [2] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: pen/paper make list of pre-req's. You just lost 90% of your non-Eve player base. Probably but I only played eve for like a month. I wouldn't call myself an Eve player. Unless you mean people who haven't had that limited background to understand the system. Then perhaps.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 608	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:06:00 - [3] - Quote GM Vegas wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. Actually the latest EVE Online patch, Odyssey, introduced an ever more similar skill pattern as more 'racial' skills were introduced similarly to what is now in DUST 514. General skills are still there but if you want to specialise, you will need to make choices for now. I wasn't aware of this. Nor am I aware how receptive the Eve player-base has been to such changes. Are the majority of them welcoming it or thinking "If it isn't broke, don't fix it"? I just wonder if there isn't a way to get some skill cross-over AND represent it in this type of UI.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 609	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:18:00 - [4] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: I wasn't aware of this. Nor am I aware how receptive the Eve player-base has been to such changes. Are the majority of them welcoming it or thinking "If it isn't broke, don't fix it"? I just wonder if there isn't a way to get some skill cross-over AND represent it in this type of UI. I loved it, I got like 2-3 million free skill points. And it is sorta racialized. Like if you want to do Amarr you have to do ALL sorts of certain skills like Energy and lazers, if Mimnatar then missiles and cannons, if Gallente then Drones and cannons. If Caldari then missiles and missiles and missiles. Its pretty racialized even when its not. It just wasn't so obviously racialized in EVE. Perhaps. But the thing is now that each skill can only be derived from one single other skill (As a direct predecessor). And then can only lead into one direct other skill past that. IIRC. It's a tree structure really and everything has to be molded to that.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 610	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:31:00 - [5] - Quote Basically I don't see what was really gained by this. Making the game more accessible at the cost of creative freedom and a hint of 'grindfest'. It may not have been a long-term, far sighted solution. I fear this may hurt Dust down the line, similar to the way re-hashing drop-ships into every aerial role (transport, logistics, triage, assault, bombers) may have been the result of a band-aid for the short term against CCP's original design. Things like this may prove in the future to be quite a thorn in the side of Dust. Especially if it was in direct opposition to the Grand Design then they will either remain as unsightly scars, or require surgical removal. Both of which are not fun to deal with.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 611	Posted - 2013.06.17 23:09:00 - [6] - Quote Agent Joseph wrote: Presenting complex information in a format that players can actually understand is not a waste of time. It's actually pretty damn important. CCP doesn't document their game systems. Everyone knows this. (Evidence: 10 years of EvE.) They create them. Sometimes they expose them transparently at the data level (via APIs) and then they wait for players to reverse-engineer them and document them. It's cost effective for CCP. And it's an enrichment activity for the players, keeping them from wasting their time on non-game activities. However, this strategy is also deeply, fundamentally stupid. A metaphor: imagine a restaurant that serves an ethnic cuisine nobody locally has ever heard of. The owner doesn't put pictures in the menu. He doesn't write descriptions of the meals. He just lists their foreign names that his customers can't understand. Adventurous people might come and try it. They might even be pleasantly surprised and tell their friends. But will the restaurant be a success overall? Doubtful. You actually need to make your products accessible to your customers. To the dismissive hacks who say this is just for COD players, that's stupid. You didn't know what skills did what either. And so you made a list on paper. I bet you even drew little lines showing the pre-requisites, and you ... OMG SKILL NODES! BUSTED. Well, no there's no need to draw lines. But I'd argue that you're confusing this skill prerequisites question with that of skill descriptions. An area also majorly lacking in Dust. The descriptions being vague and often incorrect are more akin to a restaurant with no pictures on the menu etc. On top of that we have no values to judge things by but I heard that's a CCP thing.