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Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 222	Posted - 2013.06.19 06:52:00 - [1] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Raw numbers mean everything. Raw numbers are all that matter. Take nothing outside of math into consideration. Math is king. Math is omnipitent. If a number is greater than another number, the greater number should be reduced to the smaller number in the name of balance. Ignore the fact that a rail tank gets to fire while keeping all of his speed, has unlimited ammo, never needs to reload, is nearly immune to all forms of non-AV weaponry, and makes children have nightmares of metal monsters drilling holes through their homes. Ignore the fact that a forge gunner must deal with full damage from every weapon type, takes at least two seconds to fire, loses most of his already non-existant mobility while charging (or becomes immobile if you're using Breach), has a very limited clip, and can only watch in dismay as his prey leaves his sight with no hope of ever catching up to him. But one number is bigger than the other, so forge is OP and should be nerfed. I see what you did there and I like it. You provided the details on the drawbacks of being a Forge Gunner that QQing tanker jocks always brush off as inconsequential. However, I must add mention that the rail turret has twice the range of the Forge Gun and that rail turrets OHK any infantry, including heavies, that it hits.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 223	Posted - 2013.06.19 09:22:00 - [2] - Quote Let's look at raw Proto Forge Guns (w/Operation skill). Remember that the charge time before each shot is a constant therefore Damage Per Second (DPS) remains the same regardless of number of shots fired. Kaalakiota: 1584.0 damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time. DPS = 452.571(603.429) Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time. DPS = 665.28(887.04) Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized) DPS = 462.167(616.222) Now let's look at raw Proto Rail Turrets. Remember, large rail turret charges in .3 seconds and that is when it fires it's first shot. Following shots are at the 1.8/2.2 second refire rate. I'm going to figure DPS over two (three) shots as a supposed tanker swore up and down that a Proto Compressed Particle Cannon overheats on the third shot no exceptions, otherwise I'd figure it over four shots. 80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9, .3 second spool, 1.8 second refire. DPS = 1370.381(1106.846) 80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7, .3 second spool, 2.2 second refire. DPS = 1438.96(1148.106) So, the Large Rail Turrets outperform Proto Forge Guns in damage over time.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 223	Posted - 2013.06.19 12:24:00 - [3] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Raw numbers mean everything. Raw numbers are all that matter. Take nothing outside of math into consideration. Math is king. Math is omnipitent. If a number is greater than another number, the greater number should be reduced to the smaller number in the name of balance. Ignore the fact that a rail tank gets to fire while keeping all of his speed, has unlimited ammo, never needs to reload, is nearly immune to all forms of non-AV weaponry, and makes children have nightmares of metal monsters drilling holes through their homes. Ignore the fact that a forge gunner must deal with full damage from every weapon type, takes at least two seconds to fire, loses most of his already non-existant mobility while charging (or becomes immobile if you're using Breach), has a very limited clip, and can only watch in dismay as his prey leaves his sight with no hope of ever catching up to him. But one number is bigger than the other, so forge is OP and should be nerfed. see this here children is a 1 sided argument where you only list the issues with 1 side and a positive while listing positives of the other yet completely ignoring its issues because everyone knows since this conversation has been going longer that theres already counter claims to this. so in stead of repeating myself I`ll just say, yes math is important, it allows you to count with your fingers a trick you haven't learned yet: 1) ISK cost is WAY more, at times 30x more if I`m not mistaken. 2) PG is 1k 3) CPU is above a 100 etc, got to say that you know what your talking about, because the tank can`t take damage from anti trooper guns the weapon must not be OP, thanks for your heavenly logic its been a laugh. So you're trying to call out Flying Pig for doing the same thing you are? That's pure ego right there.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 225	Posted - 2013.06.21 00:08:00 - [4] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: in my opinion (I`ve been thinking about it for a while and in some aspects I know I was wrong), FGs need a 50-150 DD nerf and small railguns need a 150-250 DD buff. In the long run PRO and maybe even ADV tanks would litterly need a team of FGers to take down or a AV vehicle and in my opinion that's fare, I truly don`t see why 1 man (yes this is the future I agree but I`m sure vehicles get improved material and tech as well) should be able to take out a tank, MAV, LAV, LAA or DS that makes sense but a heavy vehicle I think should require a AV turret or air support, a strike, a group of people or something so that's where I`m coming from. 1 of my other faults was my title, all things considered the FG isn`t the #1 (off topic, I used the Flaylock PRO 2 weeks ago, yes OP barely specked into it, so when it comes to a change in stats by % rather then number count different the flaylocks there), also there aren't as much OP weapons as there are other things OP, weapon wise most things are UP (kinda funny reading that but it is honest). so going back on topic, can we agree that a 50-150 DD damage nerf isn`t over reacting but a fare place to play and see? Knee jerk reaction here so I may be over reacting but it reads like you want infantry based AV to be a deterrent to heavy armor rather than a threat. You reasoning appears to be because one man can't be a threat heavy armor. May I point you to the dragon missile system. One man carrying two missiles and a launcher quite capable of crippling, if not destroying, a main battle tank with one shot. But then reality makes for an unbalanced game. A game where some tank jocks want the other team to severely handicap themselves to deal with one or two vehicular threats if they use infantry based AV. Requiring a four or six man AV team to take out a HAV will be fine when we're running 60 vs 60. But at 16 vs 16, it's just not a feasible option. Tanks will either run around opposed, but not threatened, while the non-AV infantry's ability to take and hold points will be handicapped, or all infantry based AV, except grenades, will become nearly extinct and people will QQ about there being too many tanks on the battlefield that they can't counter. Wait... That last one is already happeing. LOL Personally, the primary thing I see wrong with HAVs is that they don't have the PG/CPU to properly fit the modules to fit the differing play styles of the various tank jocks. I'm sure there will be proto hulls coming, but until then... Tank Jocks are going to have to work with what CCP has available to them. And the advanced hulls... Their shield and armor bases need to be brought up to match the basics. I know the difference isn't much, but every little bit helps. So no. In my opinion Infantry AV doesn't need much of a fix (cough, AV Grenades, cough), but HAVs do need work. Oh wow. Look at that. A dedicated forge gunner arguing for HAV fixes. Imagine that.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 225	Posted - 2013.06.21 06:15:00 - [5] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Let's look at raw Proto Forge Guns (w/Operation skill). Remember that the charge time before each shot is a constant therefore Damage Per Second (DPS) remains the same regardless of number of shots fired. Kaalakiota: 1584.0 damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time. DPS = 452.571(603.429) Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time. DPS = 665.28(887.04) Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized) DPS = 462.167(616.222) Now let's look at raw Proto Rail Turrets. Remember, large rail turret charges in .3 seconds and that is when it fires it's first shot. Following shots are at the 1.8/2.2 second refire rate. I'm going to figure DPS over two (three) shots as a supposed tanker swore up and down that a Proto Compressed Particle Cannon overheats on the third shot no exceptions, otherwise I'd figure it over four shots. 80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9, .3 second spool, 1.8 second refire. DPS = 1370.381(1106.846) 80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7, .3 second spool, 2.2 second refire. DPS = 1438.96(1148.106) So, the Large Rail Turrets outperform Proto Forge Guns in damage over time. So then we tank drivers are just supposed to sit there and let you take out our hp with a forge gun that does more damage than our rail gun on the same gear level? No. I don't think so. Hey. You've got no excuse. I was taken out by a rail tanker, not for the first time, yesterday while I was jogging. You really can't call what a heavy does running. It was, as usual, OHK. Good shooting. But yes if you're just going to sit there, I will take out your HP with my Forge Gun. The Forge Gun only does more damage per shot, it doesn't out DPS the Rail Turret as you can see above if you read it.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 226	Posted - 2013.06.21 07:35:00 - [6] - Quote Ray Gunmetal wrote: Void Echo wrote: buff the rail gun cannons (large turrets) so that they do at least 100 more damage to HP than the forge guns of the same level, that way the logic will make sense, otherwise you should just equipped a breach forge gun as the main cannon on a tank because the rail gun of the same level is weaker which makes no sense trade ya? you can have the breach forge gun for ur main turret if i get the large railgun as a heavy weapon, both as they are in the game right now of course Oh heck yeah! I'll take 1100+ DPS, a range of 600 meters, high accuracy, and unlimited ammo even if it means I get an overheat mechanic.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 229	Posted - 2013.06.23 08:43:00 - [7] - Quote Marston VC wrote: The "balance" your looking for can be found in the fact that Heavy suits sprint at 5 m/s while a tank goes over 20 (if im not mistaken). What you lack in damage is made up for in mobility, Though I will admit that its weird how a handheld weapon does more damage then a tank mounted turret. Who knows, maybe one day tanks will get another HP buff, or a PG/CPU buff. Let me repost this just for you... Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Let's look at raw Proto Forge Guns (w/Operation skill 5). Remember that the charge time before each shot is a constant therefore Damage Per Second (DPS) remains the same regardless of number of shots fired. Kaalakiota: 1584.0 damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time. DPS = 452.571(603.429) Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time. DPS = 665.28(887.04) Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized) DPS = 462.167(616.222) Now let's look at raw Proto Rail Turrets. Remember, large rail turret charges in .3 seconds and that is when it fires it's first shot. Following shots are at the 1.8/2.2 second refire rate. I'm going to figure DPS over two (three) shots as a supposed tanker swore up and down that a Proto Compressed Particle Cannon overheats on the third shot no exceptions, otherwise I'd figure it over four shots. 80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9, .3 second spool, 1.8 second refire. DPS = 1370.381(1106.846) 80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7, .3 second spool, 2.2 second refire. DPS = 1438.96(1148.106) So, the Large Rail Turrets outperform Proto Forge Guns in damage over time. It shouldn't be that hard to understand.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 229	Posted - 2013.06.23 21:37:00 - [8] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: in my opinion (I`ve been thinking about it for a while and in some aspects I know I was wrong), FGs need a 50-150 DD nerf and small railguns need a 150-250 DD buff. In the long run PRO and maybe even ADV tanks would litterly need a team of FGers to take down or a AV vehicle and in my opinion that's fare, I truly don`t see why 1 man (yes this is the future I agree but I`m sure vehicles get improved material and tech as well) should be able to take out a tank, MAV, LAV, LAA or DS that makes sense but a heavy vehicle I think should require a AV turret or air support, a strike, a group of people or something so that's where I`m coming from. 1 of my other faults was my title, all things considered the FG isn`t the #1 (off topic, I used the Flaylock PRO 2 weeks ago, yes OP barely specked into it, so when it comes to a change in stats by % rather then number count different the flaylocks there), also there aren't as much OP weapons as there are other things OP, weapon wise most things are UP (kinda funny reading that but it is honest). so going back on topic, can we agree that a 50-150 DD damage nerf isn`t over reacting but a fare place to play and see? Knee jerk reaction here so I may be over reacting but it reads like you want infantry based AV to be a deterrent to heavy armor rather than a threat. You reasoning appears to be because one man can't be a threat heavy armor. May I point you to the dragon missile system. One man carrying two missiles and a launcher quite capable of crippling, if not destroying, a main battle tank with one shot. But then reality makes for an unbalanced game. A game where some tank jocks want the other team to severely handicap themselves to deal with one or two vehicular threats if they use infantry based AV. Requiring a four or six man AV team to take out a HAV will be fine when we're running 60 vs 60. But at 16 vs 16, it's just not a feasible option. Tanks will either run around opposed, but not threatened, while the non-AV infantry's ability to take and hold points will be handicapped, or all infantry based AV, except grenades, will become nearly extinct and people will QQ about there being too many tanks on the battlefield that they can't counter. Wait... That last one is already happeing. LOL Personally, the primary thing I see wrong with HAVs is that they don't have the PG/CPU to properly fit the modules to fit the differing play styles of the various tank jocks. I'm sure there will be proto hulls coming, but until then... Tank Jocks are going to have to work with what CCP has available to them. And the advanced hulls... Their shield and armor bases need to be brought up to match the basics. I know the difference isn't much, but every little bit helps. So no. In my opinion Infantry AV doesn't need much of a fix (cough, AV Grenades, cough), but HAVs do need work. Oh wow. Look at that. A dedicated forge gunner arguing for HAV fixes. Imagine that. I said PRO AVs that should accure, in STD is should be able to be 1 manned FGered (speed of death determines of FG... aka what we have now) ADV should have better chances but not to high of an increase 9the highest change of stats, modules etc accure in ADV-PRO so that's why I say that) but PRO? yes a team of AV not 1 man, 2 AV at least. since its a PRO HAV (Heavy Attack vehicle) I think so (Glass cannon tanks would be easier to destroy then other PRO still but normal role and HP role should take a team). yes in reality there are AV weapons that can take out tanks with 1 shot, and in other games that don`t have these balanced arguments have 3 shot kill tanks (with an RPG) but if you think that's the way for tanks then use the rest of the HP mechanics for the ifnrnatry 1-5 bullets kills to a normal/light unit. DUST514 uses a health bar (not trying to be rude here even though it comes out like that) system that takes longer to deplete so take the same consideration for the HAVs, yes it will take a team to destroy a PRO HAV at the current / average speed of a tankers encounter to die, 1 man to do it? sure but that's going to be a while. Since you're being technical... The merc only has one hit point. That health bar is not health. It's shield and armor. The reason it takes longer to deplete for higher suits is not because there's any more base shield or armor as you go up from basic, to proto, to advanced, it's from the modules the wearer has added to it (shield extenders and/or armor plates). If you look at the information sheet on the assault suits for example, all the Caldari assault suits will have the same base shield and armor. Here's a true story for you. I encountered a rail tank last night. He got me once before I got him. But on the final encounter, it took six direct hits to take him down when all he had to do to take me down was hit me once. Had I been using my Kaalakiota (proto) instead of my Forge Gun (basic), it would have taken four or five instead of six. Evaluating that based on standard equipment available now, if he'd been in a proto hull that conceded to all the HAV jock wants, he would have been nearly immune to my Forge Gun. Here's another point of that encounter. Strip away all the gear and equipment, it was a one VS one encounter. And you're wanting to make it require two or more VS one? You want it to require two Forge AV to be able to take on a HAV then you better require that HAV to have two people to operate it.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 229	Posted - 2013.06.24 22:55:00 - [9] - Quote ladwar wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Let's look at raw Proto Forge Guns (w/Operation skill). Remember that the charge time before each shot is a constant therefore Damage Per Second (DPS) remains the same regardless of number of shots fired. Kaalakiota: 1584.0 damage, 3.5 (2.625) sec charge time. DPS = 452.571(603.429) Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1663.2 damage, 2.5 (1.875) sec charge time. DPS = 665.28(887.04) Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun: 2773.0 damage, 6 (4.5) second charge (immobilized) DPS = 462.167(616.222) Now let's look at raw Proto Rail Turrets. Remember, large rail turret charges in .3 seconds and that is when it fires it's first shot. Following shots are at the 1.8/2.2 second refire rate. I'm going to figure DPS over two (three) shots as a supposed tanker swore up and down that a Proto Compressed Particle Cannon overheats on the third shot no exceptions, otherwise I'd figure it over four shots. 80GJ Regulated/Particle Cannon: 1438.9, .3 second spool, 1.8 second refire. DPS = 1370.381(1106.846) 80GJ Compressed Particle Cannon: 1798.7, .3 second spool, 2.2 second refire. DPS = 1438.96(1148.106) So, the Large Rail Turrets outperform Proto Forge Guns in damage over time. your numbers are wrong for the rail turrets you don't count the charge up time on the first shot just like in forges You process is wrong. Charge time before the first shot is a large factor in figuring DPS when comparing weapons, otherwise the numbers will not accurately reflect weapon capability.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 255	Posted - 2013.06.24 23:05:00 - [10] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Other notes: - Limited, although large, ammo supply (or capacitor) for tank weps should be implemented - For heavy suits it's far easier to fit Damage Modifiers. 2-3 is quite common as infantry role allows sacrificing HP tanking and still filling your role. HAVs cannot do this (with the exception of redline tanks which accept the fact they cannot dominate entire field and are suscepectible to OBs) - The spool timer, holding the shot, repetitive shots, time between repetitive shots, heat buildup are all things that can be toyed with if needed. They are less radical ways of tweaking than hard values like range or alpha damage. - Reload time for rail guns instead of heat? Both? I would love to fit three damage mods You've obviously never used, or looked at, heavy suits. If you had you'd know that the Advanced and Proto Basic heavy only has two high slots. All other heavy suits, the Basic Basic heavy and all Sentinel heavies only have one high. So, that said, there is not a heavy suit in existence in the game that will fit three damage mods.

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