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Buster Friently
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722
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Posted - 2013.06.17 17:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kaylee Veloc wrote:Ok so I'm not enteirly sure how the math for fittings and skill reductions/bonus's is worked out but 3 things;
I've just got Light Weapon Operation up to 4 reducing the CPU fitting requirement of my Exile Assault Rifle down to 20 as shown on the fitting screen while just equiping that on its own. However on 1 of my suits fittings I have 310/330 CPU left so 20 spare to fit the rifle but when I fit it the CPU goes to 331.
Also I have gotten Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades up to 3 so by the description I should have a 3% benefit to sprint speed but when equipping 1x Basic Armor Plates (-3% movement penalty) to a suit thats sprint speed started at 7.00 instead of the skill completely counter acting the sprint effect it goes to 6.99.
So yeh a little confused.
Most of the numbers you see are rounded. You're just seeing the effects of the percentages being applied to numbers that aren't EXACTLY what you think they are.
For example, the 7.00 run speed is probably just under that, so the rounding makes it come out to 6.99 after the two modules. Honestly, it's nothing to worry about. It isn't like you're going to notice a speed difference of 0.01 m/s.
Also, the previous poster is probably correct. Percentages are multiplied. It should be the case that 7 x 1.03 x .97 = 6.9937 |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
725
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:It is a little easier to see if you don't have such a round number to start with.
Basic Armor Plate: +65HP -3% to Movement & Sprint Speed; so if your sprint speed is 6.6 ='s -0.198 = 6.402 (ccp says 6.40) Now Add in the Biotic Upgrade Skill 1% to level 3 should be 3% to sprint speed (0.198)... except it is not -- as CCP says they are not going to use the 1000ths place of the decimal point for this for this at level 3 (maybe when they get to level 5 you get it but so far I don't know as my requested skill respec is languishing in limbo); so even though 1% of 6.6 ='s 0.066 ccp says it is 0.06 (0.18) for a total speed of 6.58 -- now you got the module for sprint bonus... kinetic catalyzer which has a 1% bonus to module efficacy Basic is 5% boost to sprint speed, which is .33 for the 6.6 base level of suit. 1% of .33 is 0.0033 which makes it 0.3333 which ccp says is 0.33... where is the 1% module efficacy?
Write this out in real math, and I will demonstrate your error.
Currently, I can't make heads or tail out of whether or not you're even calculating the math right.
My guess is that you aren't.
Percentages are always multiplied. Take a look at my post, where I show that the match shouldn't come out exactly back to the same number.
For example, take a hypothetical 25% increase in something, combined with a hypothetical 25% decrease. I use 25% because it's big enough to see the mistake in concept, not math, more easily.
The OP wants 1.25x.75 to = 1, but this just isn't how math works.
1.25x.75=.9375, which would get displayed as either .93, or .94 depending on the rounding method.
CCP seems to be, not surprisingly, doing the math correctly. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
726
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:Check your own MATH. Mine jives with what the game is showing me.
CCP is the one with the issue.
6.6 -3% ='s 6.402 (the 3% ='s .0198) / 6.6 + 3% does not = 6.798
CCP MATh: 6.6 + 3% ='s 6.78.... this is from the dropsuit area, why - because CCP says that instead of it being .066 for 1% it is only 0.06 or 0.18 [instead of 0.198] at level 3. (as I stated I don't know if you get the missing values added for max-ing out the skill to level 5 because that has no thousandths)
This is what the game is telling me, hence the reason why when you add a Basic Armor plate it is only giving you a sprint speed of 6.40 showing in the UI and then when you add in the 3% for the biotic upgrade to level 3 it is only 6.58 displayed in the menu.
EDIT 1: it actually only gives you 6.57 with 1 basic armor plate on.
6.6 + 0.198 = 6.798 but even without a armor plate module it is only showing as 6.78....where it should be 6.8 if you round up like any normal human would do.
EDIT 2: or at least rounded to 6.79
Final EDIT: So dazzle me with your MATH and tell me how they came up with the numbers BASE Sprint w/ + 3% = 6.78 from 6.6 without them just dropping the 0.000 (aka thousandths place on the decimal system) before adding it to the suit?
This nonsense about them not giving the whole number is hogwash.
6.6*1.03=6.798. So yes this is correct.
6.6*.97=6.402
6.6*1.03*.97=6.59406
I'm not in front of my ps3 at the moment, so I can't compare to what's displayed. Are you seeing numbers significantly different than this?
So, you're seeing 6.7 for the 3% speed boost?
I'll check this out when I'm home. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
726
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 20:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:CCP says it is 6.78 sprint speed with three (3) 1% skill upgrades and no armor plates on.
Each upgrade with the base level should be 0.066 X 3 = 0.198 or 0.33 for the max level 5 biotic upgrade skill.
CCP says that with 1 armor plate on and level 3 biotic upgrade skill the sprint speed is 6.57 -- which is just confusing the heck out of me and is just saying they OVER-COMPLICATED THINGS.
6.6 - 0.198 ='s 6.402
6.6 + 0.066 + 0.066 + 0.066 ='s 6.798
6.6 - 0.198 = 6.402 + 0.066 + 0.066 + 0.066 ='s 6.6
6.6 - 0.198 = 6.402 + 0.06 + 0.06 + 0.06 ='s 6.582 which is as close to 6.57 as you are going to come
So that leaves some options, either the base value is higher than 6.6 or they are rounding the -0.198 to -0.2 or a combination there-in of the choices (the -3% value would then be higher rounded up while the +1% value would need to be rounded down)
6.601 X 3% = 0.1803 6.601 X 1% = 0.06601 6.603 X 3% = 0.19809 6.603 X 1% = 0.06603 6.605 X 3% = 0.19815 6.605 X 1% = 0.06605 6.607 X 3% = 0.19821 6.607 X 1% = 0.06607
Hey CCP why not just tell me where I am going wrong with this so I don't go on an angry rant against somebody trying to defend your vodoo math skills?
Starting at the top. Three 1% skill increases is calculated, properly, a little different that what you have done. It should be:
6.6x1.01x1.01x1.01= 6.799987, but this doesn't take into consideration the stacking penalties. Assuming stacking penalties on this, we have:
6.6x1.01x1.00869x1.00571=6.762321, see stacking penalties here: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Stacking_penalties
I haven't yet gotten home to run the numbers myself.
For the record - you do not add or subtract percentages. This is contributing to some of your confusion. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
726
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 21:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:There are no stacking penalties on skills.
Again, going by the numbers CCP has provided in game, the only place it should matter btw. Suit Sprint Speed listed is 6.6
Just a suit, no ARMOR MODULES is 6.78 sprint speed.
So to get there, it should be Biotic Upgrades 1%, which is 0.066 per level LVL 1 -- 6.600 + 0.066 = 6.666 LVL 2 -- 6.666 + 0.066 = 6.732 LVL 3 -- 6.732 + 0.066 = 6.798 LVL 4 -- 6.798 + 0.066 = 6.864 LVL 5 -- 6.864 + 0.066 = 6.93
Now at level 3 CCP says it is only 6.78.
The Equation CCP has used for the majority of the skills is as follows, BASE Value minus any penalties followed by adding the bonuses from skills.
So in order to get to the magic number of 6.78 at level 3 the upgrade would only be 0.18 instead of 0.198.... which is the number subtracted for having an (1) Armor module on.
For the record I hope to never have to deal with you at a register at some store. I'm not adding or subtracting the percentages, I'm doing the math, correctly
6.6x1.03 = 6.798. This is, basically, the only part of the math that you are doing correct. It is true that skills do not have stacking penalties. Also, skills are added as one multiplier, i.e the level 3 in Biotic adds 3% (or should) to your sprint speed. This is the origin of my 6.6x1.03. So, right here, without adding in any armor plates, there seems to be a discrepancy. The number should be 6.798. That could be truncated to display as 6.79, but not the 6.78 that you are seeing. This is why I want to check with my own character to see if I too, see the 6.78 that you are seeing.
You aren't doing the math correctly., You are doing some of it (namely the part above) correctly. They armor plate stuff, you are messing up. However, that doesn't seem to be the origin of the issue.
For the record., the bonus from biotic is not 1%, 3 times. It is 3% one time. These are two different numbers. Even though you and I agree that the result should be 6.798, you don't actually add percentages the way you show. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
726
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Posted - 2013.06.17 21:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
OK, using numbers I can see.
I don't have biotic, but I'll try that on an alt.
Going from my Logi Assault, it has a base speed of 7.42. Using one armor plate, I see a speed of 7.20. Using two plates I see a speed of 7.01
Math says 7.42x.97=7.1974, so this is right on line with what we would expect (the 7.20) For two plates, math says we should have 7.42x.97x.97=6.987478.
Interestingly, this isn't quite the same as we see in game, 7.01. If we assume stacking penalties on the speed reduction we would have: 7.42x.97x(1-.03x.869)=7.009763782, which tracks nicely to the 7.01 that is being displayed.
From this I conclude that, in regards to armor plates, stacking penalties are being applied to the speed malus.
Now, give me a little time here to look into the biotic skill because I need to skill an alt up in biotic to see what it looks like. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
727
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:Yeah it does work that way, for every other heading, PG , CPU , Shield , Armor skill , Armor Repair.
Base Armor 90, you get 4.5 HP per 5% / 25% 22.5 = max for skill level; for a max of 112.5 which I believe CCP rounds down to 112, I'm not turning it back on as it froze on me for being in the menus too long and then trying to launch a battle.
Same thing with the efficacy, Armor Repair +5% / 25% max equals 2.1 for the basic repairer skill at level 1 on a basic repair module, followed by 2.2 if you level the skill up and then at level 3 for the enhanced module it is 3.45 with the efficacy bonus to the skill.
I've had a chance to try with an alt, but I was only able to get to biotic 1.
Here's what I'm seeing:
Base Sprint: 6.72 (Amarr Med frame without Biotic) Base Sprint: 6.79 (Amarr medium with Biotic 1)
6.72x1.01=6.7872, so this matches, but if we assumed something like above where I suggest that biotic is only adding 0.9% per level we get, 6.78048. This would round to 9.78 rather than 6.79, but I don't consider this conclusive. I can run a match or two on this character to get to biotic 2 where it may be more clear what's going on.
I can say, that with the Amarr character, it is still clear that the speed reduction due to the armor plates is subject to stacking penalties. That's good to know, and something I didn't know before testing this.
I'll get back to you on the biotic numbers.
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
727
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:Yeah it does work that way, for every other heading, PG , CPU , Shield , Armor skill , Armor Repair.
Base Armor 90, you get 4.5 HP per 5% / 25% 22.5 = max for skill level; for a max of 112.5 which I believe CCP rounds down to 112, I'm not turning it back on as it froze on me for being in the menus too long and then trying to launch a battle.
Same thing with the efficacy, Armor Repair +5% / 25% max equals 2.1 for the basic repairer skill at level 1 on a basic repair module, followed by 2.2 if you level the skill up and then at level 3 for the enhanced module it is 3.45 with the efficacy bonus to the skill.
With regards to your adding of percentages. What you're saying is only correct for skills, not modules. It also doesn't work for percentages in general, nor does it work for a mix of skills and modules. This is because each skill is considered one modifier, and each module is considered on modifier.
as an example, for your biotic of 3, we do a :
Base speed x 1.03 to get the result.
If, however, it were three modules each stating a 1$ speed increase we would have:
Base speed x 1.01 x 1.01 x 1.01 which is not the same thing as Base speed x 1.03.
The differences become increasingly obvious as you add more items. This is most commonly noticed here when people talk about damage modifiers. They aren't: base damage + 1.1xbase damage + 1.1xbase damage.... They are actually base damage + 1.1xbase damage + (1.1xcurrent damage)...
This means when you have a bunch of modules and skills mixed in, you need to take in to account the multiplicative nature of percentages, plus which things count as a single modifier or not.
So, only for a single skill is appropriate to calculate the modifier like this:
base skill x percentage per level = level skill modifier. Current skill = level skill modifier x level + base skill.
For all other situations, this will be incorrect math, and fail you.
As a quick hypothetical, let's say you have a skill (or any statistic) that has a value of 100. If you have modifier of 10%, this means you have a new skill of 110, or 100+ 10. So far so good. Now, let's say you also have a module that gives you 10%. Going by your math (which is wrong), you would have 100+10+10, or 120. This isn't how it works because you now have two modifiers rather than just one. You would, in reality, have 100x1.1x1.1=121. Take a look at some of the complex damage mod threads and you'll see this misconception raise it's ugly head many times. The correct result is 121, and this is why CCP has also included stacking penalties. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
727
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:Part of the problem is that we are talking about 2 different suits here.
While their rounding may not have effected your suit to such lengths it is doing some vodoo on the caldari logi class. And we are talking about 0.01 but that is still enough to make a headshot miss if you got multiple enemies lighting you up.
So what I conclude is that they are displaying the wrong values for the caldari logi suits.
I honestly don't know if the Armor Plate Modules efficacy bonus also adds some sort of undocumented increase to the -3% movement penalty as a side effect.
No, the alt I was using was using militia plates, and has no skills in armor plates, so no efficacy bonus. It's almost certainly the stacking penalty.
It could be there's something wrong with the stats or a display issue with the caldari suits. I have a base caldari assault I can use, but I have no character specced into caldari logi. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
727
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
OK, so I acquired a new alt, and was able to test on a militia Caldari medium frame up to biotics 4.
Here's what I see:
Base Sprint Speed: 7.00
Sprint with Biotic 1: 7.07 Sprint with Biotic 2: 7.14 Sprint with Biotic 3: 7.21 Sprint with Biotic 4: 7.28
This is exactly in line with the stated 1% per level. If instead it was the previously supposed 0.9% we would instead have: 7.252 by lvl 4. This seems inconsistent with the results.
So, the bottom line at this point, is because I can't use the caldari logi, I can't confirm the display numbers that you see.
Everything I see is consistent with 1% per level on the biotics skill, and the 3% speed reduction on plates, assuming we factor in stacking penalties on the plates.
If anyone else who happens across this post, and has the ability to use caldari logi suits, could post your sprint speeds and biotics levels on an empty suit, that would greatly help us to identify what might be the issue. |
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
727
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Posted - 2013.06.17 23:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:Buster Friently wrote:
As a quick hypothetical, let's say you have a skill (or any statistic) that has a value of 100. If you have modifier of 10%, this means you have a new skill of 110, or 100+ 10. So far so good. Now, let's say you also have a module that gives you 10%. Going by your math (which is wrong), you would have 100+10+10, or 120. This isn't how it works because you now have two modifiers rather than just one. You would, in reality, have 100x1.1x1.1=121. Take a look at some of the complex damage mod threads and you'll see this misconception raise it's ugly head many times. The correct result is 121, and this is why CCP has also included stacking penalties.
Only in your crazy world.... try this at a store and you won't win. retail price $100 , 10% off; $90 take an additional 10%off sale or $9 more; companies have been sued for then using the sale price for the additional 10% off without saying it in the fine print that they are doing that and had to specify that it was an additional 10% off the retail price $10 total would be $80, tell the store you want 21% off and see what happens. So just stop telling me I'm wrong, when they are using a vacakta theorem for doing simple math, I have been balancing a check book for years. And before you re-edit all your posts to seem more sure of yourself, this was only 1 Armor repair module, no stacking penalties defined by CCP. CCP also went on to say that the bonus saying it was 1.21 was an error thats only rememdy was to be removed from the UI entirely.
You are wrong. Sorry, department store maths doesn't work out here. Your example is exactly correct. If the product was $100, and you got 10% off, it would be $90. An additional 10$ off would only reduce it by a further %9. This is not the same as 20% off the original price. Don't worry, eventually someone will come in here and back me up.
This is exactly why you can take 50% off something forever and never reach 0.
Now, I don't normally do this, but I don't have time to teach you all this percentage math in this forum. Suffice it to say that I have a master's degree in Physics. Trust me on this, or ask a mathemetician/math teacher/ etc.
The 1.21 was only an error in that it didn't include stacking penalties which are in the game. It was removed entirely because a global number doesn't reflect the fact that you would have different multipliers for different weapons. In other words a global multiplier makes no sense if you have light damage mods, but have both a light weapon and a sidearm. This is why it was removed.
For example, with three complex damage mods (ignoring stacking penalties) you would have a 1.33 damage multiplier. |
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