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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
175
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Posted - 2013.06.11 22:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
I kind of stumbled upon this while perusing the shield vs armor topics. This Idea may help balance that out as well, but I'm mostly concerned with the issue in the thread title here.
major problem:
high modules: damage mods shield extenders shield rechargers myofibril stimulants Precision Enhancers
Low Modules: Armor Plates Armor Repairers Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Cardiac Regulators Cardiac Stimulants CPU Upgrades Kinetic Catalyzers PG Upgrades Profile Dampeners Range Amplifiers Shield Regulators (why are you a Low powered module GTFO!)
So what did we learn? Armor tanking effectively removes any other tactical advantage one could possibly gain.
Possible solution:
implement a High/Medium/Low Slot system, adjust the available PG/CPU for dropsuits to be able to accommodate more Modules, and change the module placement according to this:
High/Low Slots would remain exactly the same for every suit, add 3 Medium slots on every suit except MLT Suits would only get 2 Medium Slots.
High Slot Modules: (for shield and stamina) Shield Extenders Shield Rechargers Shield Regulators Myofibril Stimulants Cardiac Regulators
Medium Slot Modules: (for dropsuit utility enhancements) Damage Modifiers Codebreakers Precision Scan Enhancers Range Amplifiers Active Scanners CPU Enhancers PG Enhancers
Low Slot Modules: (for armor, movement speed, and profile dampening) Armor Plates Armor Repairers Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Kinetic Catalyzers Profile Dampeners
Any thoughts toward this? |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
309
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Posted - 2013.06.11 22:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pretty neat idea.
Cause atm, its almost like they didnt know where to put any of these modules and just figured, eh screw it, just put it in the low slot.
Cause right now its pretty much armor, shields, and damage mods.. there's little reason to run anything else. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
313
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Posted - 2013.06.12 02:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Only suggestion would be to swap profile dampening and cardiac reg.
Force a choice between speed/sta and armor and profile dampening and shields. Especially if shields are likely to receive a signature penalty. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
180
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Posted - 2013.06.12 03:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Only suggestion would be to swap profile dampening and cardiac reg.
Force a choice between speed/sta and armor and profile dampening and shields. Especially if shields are likely to receive a signature penalty.
My idea behind this structure is to force armor tankers to choose between more stamina or having shields. Armor tankers are slow, so being able to sprint longer or more eHP/ shield regen is a good trade off for this.
Shield tankers would be forced to choose between being faster, less visible on Tac Net, or ability to dual tank.
I think this kind of trade off would offer more balance across all classes. |
Stands Alone
Ultramarine Corp
26
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Posted - 2013.06.12 03:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
i cant say that i would agree on this.
by adding a med slot you would have to take away from the low and high slots. therefore taking away the ability to do a high hp shield/armor tank effectively due to lack of low and high slots but would add to more modifying of special skills. which could also take away the effectiveness of very carefully choosing your suits. for example. i have a very high hp advanced logi suit but lack speed, good support equipment, and dmg. but if i lay back on one or two of the armor/shield modules, i can make him faster with more damage and better equipment but less hp. meaning i have to change my in-the-face playstyle to flanking maneuvers but i can be just as effective.
lose one armor and decrease your scan profile which means you must stay outta the way but in turn you have the ability to hit from the sides and flanks a lil easier.
i feel like the current system is a good balance but one or two things need to change place. like cardiac/sprint modules going to a high slot to benefit those who need them most. the armor suits...
its just like in eve. more damage= less hp/speed... more speed= less dmg/hp... more hp= less speed/dmg.... then there are the ones like me who play with fittings for hours
i like being armor heavy logi suit... cause i can use my high slots for other stuff |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
183
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 04:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Stands Alone wrote:i cant say that i would agree on this.
by adding a med slot you would have to take away from the low and high slots. therefore taking away the ability to do a high hp shield/armor tank effectively due to lack of low and high slots but would add to more modifying of special skills. which could also take away the effectiveness of very carefully choosing your suits.
This is why I suggested leaving the highs and lows the same for all suits, and adding more PG/CPU to equip the Medium module slots. This would open up a vast amount more possibilities for shield tankers and armor tankers.
I think It would add to the effectiveness of carefully choosing your suits.
For instance one could choose to tank in stamina (highs) damage (med) and armor (lows) or shield (highs) hacking/stealth (med) and speed (lows)
That is only a couple simple examples. I just feel that loadouts would be vastly more complex and diverse this way. |
Starne
Planetary Response Organization
22
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Posted - 2013.06.12 04:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
sweet idea I like it bump |
Ivan Avogadro
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
287
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
I like it but it feels like it's far too much to change, ya know? I think the easiest way is to just move some of the existing mods into the high slots:
Cardiac Regulator Codebreaker Armor Repairer Reactive Plates
These ones seem like the most computer intensity of them. Seriously, Armor Reps are supposed to be little nanobugs that constantly crawl all over my armor to make repairs right? How is that not complex enough for a high slot?
Anyway, the move would simultaneously even out the high/low disparity while also making armor tanking more attractive. You could fill you lows with plates while filling your highs with damage mitigation. |
Stands Alone
Ultramarine Corp
26
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Stands Alone wrote:i cant say that i would agree on this.
by adding a med slot you would have to take away from the low and high slots. therefore taking away the ability to do a high hp shield/armor tank effectively due to lack of low and high slots but would add to more modifying of special skills. which could also take away the effectiveness of very carefully choosing your suits. This is why I suggested leaving the highs and lows the same for all suits, and adding more PG/CPU to equip the Medium module slots. This would open up a vast amount more possibilities for shield tankers and armor tankers. I think It would add to the effectiveness of carefully choosing your suits. For instance a heavy could choose to tank in stamina (highs) damage (med) and armor (lows) while a shotty scout could tank shield (highs) hacking/stealth (med) and speed (lows) a frontline assaulter could tank in shield (high) damage (med) armor (low) a sniper could tank in shield (high) scan precision/scan range (med) and low profile sig (low) a logistics could run with shield rechargers/regulators (highs) PG/CPU enhancers for more equipment (med) and armor repairers (low) That is only a few simple examples. I just feel that loadouts would be vastly more complex and diverse this way. It would also add to the overall ability for each role to succeed at their job.
in this case. the fittings would be based around free med slots that everyone has free. there would be no trade off as they are not sacrificing any armor to run faster. or sacrificing dmg for extra speed... armor suits are fine... they are not susceptible to flux grenades, you can put a +10% dmg on without compromising your main hp buffer.
for shields to get the same effect they will have to sacrifice hp and speed. when armor only sacrifices hp.
no offense, but i think if you get more creative with some fittings. you may find the low slots much more useful with different mods than armor mods. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
189
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 12:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ivan Avogadro wrote:I like it but it feels like it's far too much to change, ya know? I think the easiest way is to just move some of the existing mods into the high slots:
Cardiac Regulator Codebreaker Armor Repairer Reactive Plates
These ones seem like the most computer intensity of them. Seriously, Armor Reps are supposed to be little nanobugs that constantly crawl all over my armor to make repairs right? How is that not complex enough for a high slot?
Anyway, the move would simultaneously even out the high/low disparity while also making armor tanking more attractive. You could fill you lows with plates while filling your highs with damage mitigation.
I thought of this, but rejected the Idea and here is why. Think about the Heavy. The Amarr Basic has max 2H/3L the Sentinel has 1H/4L this would gimp they're ability to regen with any kind of speed without being tethered to a logi. Scouts would be forced to give up shields to have faster sprinting etc. this would be a death sentence to them.
Stands Alone wrote: in this case. the fittings would be based around free med slots that everyone has free. there would be no trade off as they are not sacrificing any armor to run faster. or sacrificing dmg for extra speed... armor suits are fine... they are not susceptible to flux grenades, you can put a +10% dmg on without compromising your main hp buffer.
for shields to get the same effect they will have to sacrifice hp and speed. when armor only sacrifices hp.
no offense, but i think if you get more creative with some fittings. you may find the low slots much more useful with different mods than armor mods.
How would they not sacrifice armor for speed when I left the kinetic catalyzers and in the low side? Armor would also have to be sacrificed to have a lower profile signature.
Extra damage would need to be sacrificed for better scan precision/range/extra PG/CPU/hacking speed or any combination of all of these.
Shields would need to be sacrificed for more stamina or more melee damage. (which is stlii the easiest choice to make for most)
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1400
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Posted - 2013.06.12 12:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'd say without changing everything at its base, the newer plates should just be high slot items. That way shield tankers won't inevitably benefit from them more than armor tankers. |
Obodiah Garro
Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance
140
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Posted - 2013.06.12 12:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
In EvE there are a few shield modules that go into low slots, that's probably why the regulator is in a low slot, which is good because we don't have enough high slots as it is. Atm the armour tanker has the advantage of tank and gank and the shield tanker needs to choose or compromise. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
545
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Posted - 2013.06.12 12:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
I don't think anyone wants to see suits that can shield tank, armour tank AND stack damage all in one. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1400
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Posted - 2013.06.12 12:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Obodiah Garro wrote:In EvE there are a few shield modules that go into low slots, that's probably why the regulator is in a low slot, which is good because we don't have enough high slots as it is. Atm the armour tanker has the advantage of tank and gank and the shield tanker needs to choose or compromise. But in EVE the movement penalty for plates makes sense because it's mass related. In Dust it takes away mobility from 3 categories at the same time. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
189
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 13:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:I don't think anyone wants to see suits that can shield tank, armour tank AND stack damage all in one.
They would have to adjust the base PG/CPU to make this impossible.
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Obodiah Garro
Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance
142
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Posted - 2013.06.12 13:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Obodiah Garro wrote:In EvE there are a few shield modules that go into low slots, that's probably why the regulator is in a low slot, which is good because we don't have enough high slots as it is. Atm the armour tanker has the advantage of tank and gank and the shield tanker needs to choose or compromise. But in EVE the movement penalty for plates makes sense because it's mass related. In Dust it takes away mobility from 3 categories at the same time.
I hear what your saying, but I think were trying to fix 1 problem by creating another. In EvE the additional mass was offset by the factor shields had a signature penalty. That meant using armour made you a bit slower, but using shields meant you were more vurnable across the whole field of battle (easier to lock, take more dmg from weapons etc).
If shields in Dust had the same penalty, they should theoretically show up on enemy radars more easily thus giving away their positions, which is a huge tactical disadvantage. Am fine with that. Making armour better than what they are/ changing slot layouts just compounds the problem without addressing the issue of choice.
Both shield and armour should have their strengths and weaknesses, unforntualy atm the shield user gets the caldari logi suit and no penalty to his visibility, this is the problem that should be addressed. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
189
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 13:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Edited OP |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
217
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Please give this some thought and consider mine or any other possible solution to this problem.
Thank you,
Jaraiya |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1617
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 21:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Good idea |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
958
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
This is a good thread, +1. This isn't the only imbalance, but your solution goes a long way to fixing this one.
My main misgiving is that it'd make the fitting system even more complicated than it is now, and put in even more balancing factors for the dropsuits. That said, I think it capitalises on the nature of the fitting system - it really is a versatile beast, even with the cookie cutter fits flying around, and it's fun to muck about with different fittings.
EDIT: Though actually, it doesn't directly give 'tactical advantages' to armour tankers. They wouldn't have an advantage in any particular department still. |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
221
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
EDIT: Though actually, it doesn't directly give 'tactical advantages' to armour tankers. They wouldn't have an advantage in any particular department still.
That is correct, it would only serve to level the playing field. Currently these are advantages shield tankers can have over armor tankers.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
958
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
EDIT: Though actually, it doesn't directly give 'tactical advantages' to armour tankers. They wouldn't have an advantage in any particular department still.
That is correct, it would only serve to level the playing field. Currently these are advantages shield tankers can have over armor tankers. I see. One of the things I'd really like to see from the two different tank type is a clear role definition - for there to be situations where one type excels and beats the other one, and others where the other tank does better.
I'm glad to hear that you're following the armour vs shield debate. I will be posting a long thread on this shortly - May I link your thread in it? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
221
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Posted - 2013.06.15 22:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
EDIT: Though actually, it doesn't directly give 'tactical advantages' to armour tankers. They wouldn't have an advantage in any particular department still.
That is correct, it would only serve to level the playing field. Currently these are advantages shield tankers can have over armor tankers. I see. One of the things I'd really like to see from the two different tank type is a clear role definition - for there to be situations where one type excels and beats the other one, and others where the other tank does better. I'm glad to hear that you're following the armour vs shield debate. I will be posting a long thread on this shortly - May I link your thread in it?
You sure can! I agree as well, shield/armor tankers should have somewhat different roles, but at the same time some aspects should overlap. I tried to incorporate this idea in my OP, but may have fell short. In any case I did the best I could and welcome any suggestions or further tweaks. Note that I may not necessarily agree with said suggestions/tweaks, but they are welcome none the less! |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
155
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Posted - 2013.07.07 01:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bump.
Good idea.
Then armor tanks won't have to sacrifice for tactical enhancements or tanking mods. |
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