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Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
303
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 20:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
First of all, I didn't spec into Caldari Logi Suit (or any Logi suit) and I didn't spec into Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle.
Said it this. My question is:
Anytime that CCP makes change in the game, like change the weapons stats, suits stats, sights, HAVs, LAVs, Dropships, etc, will they make a respec?
Because people spend time to spec into something that they like to use, and if CCP changes those things and then people don't feel good with those things, well... that's ****.
I would love to know is that the way of CCP. Make a bad development and then change all the game without compensate the players that wasted time... Or make a bad development, change the whole game and then give to the players the possibility to start again?
What's the way CCP?
Because is very possible that CCP Nerfer makes changes in LAVs, TAR, Logies, etc. And then what? What will happen with those guys?
PS: CPMs don't respond to this thread till you get better in the game and learn more about the gameplay. Thank you.
Bye. Kisses. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
133
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Posted - 2013.05.31 21:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
I've been wondering the same thing. Listing nerfs in the patch notes is one thing, but the ninja nerfs that occur are very off putting in a game like this where your investments aren't meant to be refunded and you have to live with that choice investment. What's even more off putting, and down right discourages me from opening my wallet, let alone my client is the motivation behind said ninja nerfs:
CCP Remnant wrote:KA24DERT wrote:SirManBoy wrote:The mass driver needs some serious TLC. Some arbitrary 10% buff isn't going to adequately address its extensive list of new shortcomings, including its damage (it needs far more than a 10% buff), its splash area, and its aiming. In its current state, the mass driver is a hot mess that no longer commands any respect on the battlefield, which means all of its tactical value is gone. This is especially true for logi bros who used it to enhance their support role. A mass driver used to scare people away long enough to make revives, throw down nanos, and make repairs. This is no longer the case. Yeah, the MD has gotten hit pretty hard: MD Specific: 1) Splash Radius 2) Misleading Smoke Trail 3) Damage nerf 4) Range Nerf General, but hits MD hard: 1) Nanohive Nerf (my smg kills have gone way up.) This has changed the weapon entirely. People can hide behind obstacles and be safe, People can run from cover to cover at a distance and be safe. People can charge at me and absorb my damage while taking me down (easier than before). I've adjusted my playstyle to this. And am now finding myself charging into groups of enemies and using the MD like a blind man's shotgun. It works, but i'm not sure that's the weapon's intended role. If the 10% damage buff is across the board, then bringing back the splash radius and increasing the range will bring this weapon back up to snuff. To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance. One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you *think* are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon. I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now). That portion in the quote which I underlined has been rubbing me the wrong way since I've first seen this quote. How many other game mechanics where changed on a whim based on events that didn't occur on tranquility? More importantly, how many more will change in this context? Am I going to suddenly log in one day and find out that all my fittings are invalid because my Minmatar logi suit has been confined to a sidearm based on how many people are using the suit on a dev server? Outside of wanting to keep in touch with my friends in game, I have severely cut down my play time because of this. It's not fair for players that invest millions of SP into their respective roles which they find fun to suddenly have them changed overnight. I've lost a lot of faith in Dust 514 changing for the better when I discovered the grounds behind some of these more drastic changes and I know others that have too. This cloak and dagger practice of "rebalancing" needs to stop and significant changes to game mechanics need to be communicated or this game really will die before it's true potential can shine. I've hand waved many a change in this game that let a bad taste in my mouth, but this is the number one thing that has really disappointed me. Honestly, if it weren't for the optional skill respec, which was unrelated to this occurrence, I would have since left, biomassing my avatar to prevent temptation of coming back. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
214
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 21:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote:First of all, I didn't spec into Caldari Logi Suit (or any Logi suit) and I didn't spec into Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle.
Said it this. My question is:
Anytime that CCP makes change in the game, like change the weapons stats, suits stats, sights, HAVs, LAVs, Dropships, etc, will they make a respec?
Because people spend time to spec into something that they like to use, and if CCP changes those things and then people don't feel good with those things, well... that's ****.
I would love to know is that the way of CCP. Make a bad development and then change all the game without compensate the players that wasted time... Or make a bad development, change the whole game and then give to the players the possibility to start again?
What's the way CCP?
Because is very possible that CCP Nerfer makes changes in LAVs, TAR, Logies, etc. And then what? What will happen with those guys?
Respecs are likely to remain an extreme measure for extreme situations. The last respec was issued because a large number of skills has been modified in major ways and part of them was left broken or had wrong/badly worded descriptions.
Regular balance passes do not warrant a respec because weapons are not supposed to be imbalanced and speccing into broken gear in full knowledge of it beeing broken is a concious decision on your behalf.
New additions might end up leading to respecs but i think they ought to be avoided if at all possible aswell.
Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote: PS: CPMs don't respond to this thread till you get better in the game and learn more about the gameplay. Thank you.
Bye. Kisses.
On behalf of the CPM members that i consider beeing normal people just like you and me: Kitten you
Yours sincerely |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 21:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Out of curiosity, how would you feel if you suddenly logged in one day and found out that the role you played and invested millions of SP into was suddenly changed overnight without anything indicating the impending change? Would you still have the point of view you have now? |
Crash Monster
Snipers Anonymous
430
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 21:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:Out of curiosity, how would you feel if you suddenly logged in one day and found out that the role you played and invested millions of SP into was suddenly changed overnight without anything indicating the impending change? Would you still have the point of view you have now?
I'd quietly petition for a respec and explain why... I would not be whining in the forums about it in an attempt to get CCP to care about my personal plight. |
VLIGHT5
The Judas Coalition
235
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Posted - 2013.05.31 21:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Don't even bother to petition CCP. I've tried to do so but they refuse to give me a respec.
Honestly, respecs should just be free. This game is not EVE. It's a fast paced console shooter, and players should be able to freely experiment and change roles when they get bored with their current one. I'm not talking about a day-to-day thing, but a respec every 2-3 weeks isn't going to hurt anybody. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
135
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Posted - 2013.05.31 21:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Crash Monster wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:Out of curiosity, how would you feel if you suddenly logged in one day and found out that the role you played and invested millions of SP into was suddenly changed overnight without anything indicating the impending change? Would you still have the point of view you have now? I'd quietly petition for a respec and explain why... I would not be whining in the forums about it in an attempt to get CCP to care about my personal plight. How is it a personal plight? When something gets nerfed a portion of the community that uses that game mechanic will be voicing their discontent. Hell, I'd rather people share it on the forums so that others know. If everyone stayed tight lipped about the HMG do you think they would have made an effort to fix it? Changing a game mechanic is one thing, but making that change while turning a blind eye to player feedback behind a mask of transparency is dishonest no matter how you look at it. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
215
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 22:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:Out of curiosity, how would you feel if you suddenly logged in one day and found out that the role you played and invested millions of SP into was suddenly changed overnight without anything indicating the impending change? Would you still have the point of view you have now? If your piece of equipent/class is objectively nerfed into uselessnes then you have a legitimately UP piece of gear/class and can rightfully demand correction i.e. a balancing pass.
If you spec into, say cal logi with tac ar because that combination is considered OP by the community and you don't want to be stomped by others then you should be fully aware of the fact that a nerf is very possible and are responsible for speccing into it. (extreme example)
You are supposed to choose a piece of gear based on playstyle and personal preference (or tactical considerations).The stats are supposed to allow you to do so. If your choice is/has become inferior due to balance changes then we have a balance issue at hand wich is completely unrelated to a respec.
Balancing is a relative term. Someone is always getting nerfed. As soon as we acknowledge that as a respec worthy situation by default we end up with constant respecs for possibly large portions of the playerbase everytime any stat change is made.
This scenario would be a complete disaster for the whole concept of skilltrees.
To answer you question, yes. And if CCP made me spit and curse (they took 5% resists from my battleship!) i would still have that view because balance is bound to happen and someone is always affected negatively. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 22:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:Out of curiosity, how would you feel if you suddenly logged in one day and found out that the role you played and invested millions of SP into was suddenly changed overnight without anything indicating the impending change? Would you still have the point of view you have now? If your piece of equipent/class is objectively nerfed into uselessnes then you have a legitimately UP piece of gear/class and can rightfully demand correction i.e. a balancing pass. If you spec into, say cal logi with tac ar because that combination is considered OP by the community and you don't want to be stomped by others then you should be fully aware of the fact that a nerf is very possible and are responsible for speccing into it. (extreme example) You are supposed to choose a piece of gear based on playstyle and personal preference (or tactical considerations).The stats are supposed to allow you to do so. If your choice is/has become inferior due to balance changes then we have a balance issue at hand wich is completely unrelated to a respec. Balancing is a relative term. Someone is always getting nerfed. As soon as we acknowledge that as a respec worthy situation by default we end up with constant respecs for possibly large portions of the playerbase everytime any stat change is made. This scenario would be a complete disaster for the whole concept of skilltrees. To answer you question, yes. And if CCP made me spit and curse (they took 5% resists from my battleship!) i would still have that view because balance is bound to happen and someone is always affected negatively. Caldari logi would be a different case because that's a game mechanic that needs to be rebalanced because its racial bonus is on the levels of game breaking like the TAR and approaching sharpshooter in Chromosome. If they do the smart thing and reduce that bonus to 2~3% per level, it should be fixed, but I digress... Even if a change like that would occur, it should be announced via patch notes out of fairness for those who play the class, whether to exploit it or not. This goes with the TAR as well, or any game mechanic that is going to undergo rebalancing.
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Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
215
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 22:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:Out of curiosity, how would you feel if you suddenly logged in one day and found out that the role you played and invested millions of SP into was suddenly changed overnight without anything indicating the impending change? Would you still have the point of view you have now? If your piece of equipent/class is objectively nerfed into uselessnes then you have a legitimately UP piece of gear/class and can rightfully demand correction i.e. a balancing pass. If you spec into, say cal logi with tac ar because that combination is considered OP by the community and you don't want to be stomped by others then you should be fully aware of the fact that a nerf is very possible and are responsible for speccing into it. (extreme example) You are supposed to choose a piece of gear based on playstyle and personal preference (or tactical considerations).The stats are supposed to allow you to do so. If your choice is/has become inferior due to balance changes then we have a balance issue at hand wich is completely unrelated to a respec. Balancing is a relative term. Someone is always getting nerfed. As soon as we acknowledge that as a respec worthy situation by default we end up with constant respecs for possibly large portions of the playerbase everytime any stat change is made. This scenario would be a complete disaster for the whole concept of skilltrees. To answer you question, yes. And if CCP made me spit and curse (they took 5% resists from my battleship!) i would still have that view because balance is bound to happen and someone is always affected negatively. Caldari logi would be a different case because that's a game mechanic that needs to be rebalanced because its racial bonus is on the levels of game breaking like the TAR and approaching sharpshooter in Chromosome. If they do the smart thing and reduce that bonus to 2~3% per level, it should be fixed, but I digress... Even if a change like that would occur, it should be announced via patch notes out of fairness for those who play the class, whether to exploit it or not. This goes with the TAR as well, or any game mechanic that is going to undergo rebalancing. I would change the bonus to a effectiveness modifier of shield/armor repping mods and redesign pretty much all the suit bonuses while i'm at it(shields for gallente/amarr assault, really?). But that is indeed OT.
I absolutely agree that the amount of information concerning inportant metrics and changes thereof is hideous right now. There will be changes though, that affect so many or advanced skills that even the earliest possible announcement will be far too late for anyone to avoid beeing affected and we all have to make sure that we choose the skills/gear because we identify with them so we can live with reasonable nerfs (read: limited to the required extend), should they happen. |
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Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2013.05.31 22:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote: I absolutely agree that the amount of information concerning inportant metrics and changes thereof is hideous right now. There will be changes though, that affect so many or advanced skills that even the earliest possible announcement will be far too late for anyone to avoid beeing affected and we all have to make sure that we choose the skills/gear because we identify with them so we can live with reasonable nerfs (read: limited to the required extend), should they happen.
Exactly my point. Communication is key. What's going on now is the equivalent of buying a car and the dealership sneaks into your garage while you're asleep and changes the parts. Virtual investment or not, practices like this are detrimental to trust. Outside of checking for my skill respec, I haven't played since last week because I don't trust CCP anymore. After putting up with EVE drama for 5 years, I might officially be done with New Eden at the moment. I won't biomass myself yet out of hopes that things will get better. But that hope is fading with each passing day...
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Crash Monster
Snipers Anonymous
431
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Posted - 2013.05.31 22:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:How is it a personal plight? When something gets nerfed a portion of the community that uses that game mechanic will be voicing their discontent. Hell, I'd rather people share it on the forums so that others know. If everyone stayed tight lipped about the HMG do you think they would have made an effort to fix it? Changing a game mechanic is one thing, but making that change while turning a blind eye to player feedback behind a mask of transparency is dishonest no matter how you look at it.
It's a personal plight when people come to the forums to air their laundry. If there were objective discussions about why something is or is not UP or OP then it would be somewhat better.
Frankly, I hope CCP doesn't put much stock in the QQing forums... there are better ways to make your case then crying in public about things.
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Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2013.05.31 22:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Crash Monster wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:How is it a personal plight? When something gets nerfed a portion of the community that uses that game mechanic will be voicing their discontent. Hell, I'd rather people share it on the forums so that others know. If everyone stayed tight lipped about the HMG do you think they would have made an effort to fix it? Changing a game mechanic is one thing, but making that change while turning a blind eye to player feedback behind a mask of transparency is dishonest no matter how you look at it. It's a personal plight when people come to the forums to air their laundry. If there were objective discussions about why something is or is not UP or OP then it would be somewhat better. Frankly, I hope CCP doesn't put much stock in the QQing forums... there are better ways to make your case then crying in public about things. I'm trying to convey a point that there's a cutoff in communication between developer and player when a developer is trying to pride themselves on transparency. All you're doing is trying to be an internet tough guy or doing the worst job of playing devil's advocate I've ever seen. Keep that frame of mind if you want, but I better not see you adding your 0.2 isk in, voicing your discontent about something. |
KalOfTheRathi
Talon Strike Force LTD Orion Empire
467
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 23:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:CCP Remnant wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance. That portion in the quote which I underlined has been rubbing me the wrong way since I've first seen this quote. How many other game mechanics where changed on a whim based on events that didn't occur on tranquility? It is interesting that the entire industry operates this way but you feel it is not a valid solution.
You may not like their method but this has been The method since early on. The transparency is better than it had been before the CPM made their positions clear and your underlined concern is actually about CCP being honest that they were surprised by the difference between playtesting and released into the game results. Maybe they will look into why there was such a difference.
The one thing that is very consistent regarding CCP is they have a plan that is not shared with the players. They share Some details but that is it. This seems to be true in EVE and DUST. If something needs to be addressed to allow Their plan to work then that is their first priority.
Whether this is a workable plan remains to be seen. I have played significantly less recently because of RL and because the game is not fun currently. I miss Chromosome but it is not coming back. I would prefer a different solution as the constant Nerf Hammers and the overpriced SP requirements have essentially changed the game from something I could not get enough of to one that I wait until some update occurs to see if anything is better before I bother to play it again. The last time I logged in was to see the changes in the Skill Tree and to discover that I needed the SP respec to recover the very expensive SP that was required is now wasted.
If we all leave as a result then their plan was not a good one. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
145
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Posted - 2013.05.31 23:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:CCP Remnant wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance. That portion in the quote which I underlined has been rubbing me the wrong way since I've first seen this quote. How many other game mechanics where changed on a whim based on events that didn't occur on tranquility? It is interesting that the entire industry operates this way but you feel it is not a valid solution. You may not like their method but this has been The method since early on. The transparency is better than it had been before the CPM made their positions clear and your underlined concern is actually about CCP being honest that they were surprised by the difference between playtesting and released into the game results. Maybe they will look into why there was such a difference. The one thing that is very consistent regarding CCP is they have a plan that is not shared with the players. They share Some details but that is it. This seems to be true in EVE and DUST. If something needs to be addressed to allow Their plan to work then that is their first priority. Whether this is a workable plan remains to be seen. I have played significantly less recently because of RL and because the game is not fun currently. I miss Chromosome but it is not coming back. I would prefer a different solution as the constant Nerf Hammers and the overpriced SP requirements have essentially changed the game from something I could not get enough of to one that I wait until some update occurs to see if anything is better before I bother to play it again. The last time I logged in was to see the changes in the Skill Tree and to discover that I needed the SP respec to recover the very expensive SP that was required is now wasted. If we all leave as a result then their plan was not a good one. So basically, you're just saying there's a possibility that they made this change to lay out some ground work for something still on the drawing boards while staying silent about it? If that's the case, I'd like to know something, even a soonGäó even. |
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