DUST Search - An alternate SP and ISK system.

Daedric Lothar wrote:

Maybe its just me, but I have trouble reading this.

So basically you want to be able to use any item, even proto items without having any skills. Then have all those items, except militia grade, have bonuses built into them according to your skills.

I dunno. I like the idea of trying to unlock new weapons and armor and cars and stuff. Not making it a HUGE grind, but just something I can work towards. I think the fact that "most" items already have a militia or AUR try before you buy option renders much of this unessecary.

I don't really mind the skills how they are now. I think there is alot missing, and I'm hoping that as they add new skills they decrease some of the others so newbies can catch up. Right now you need about 5-6M skillpoints to be Competitive with the oldest veteran players. That seems legit, if a little high, as that is currently about 20 weeks of soft cap grinding.

[Edit]: We also want people to actually USE protogear. I always run 4k fits, I just like the challenge. But I don't mind people using protogear. Making it ungodly expensive will just drive AUR proto sales and then people will complain to no end about Pay to Win.


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Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 712	Posted - 2013.05.31 11:38:00 - [1] - Quote Continuing on from this thread, https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83186&find=unread Instead of waffling on about reasons as to why we should have a system like this, I will present my ideas and the discussion about it below should hammer out the strengths and weaknesses. So: Complete Skill system overhaul 1. Skills do not unlock any items. 1.1. All items are already unlocked. 2. Skills simply upgrades the efficacy of an item. 2.1. Skill 'tree' system is replaced by a list of skills; very rarely should there be prerequisites for skills. 2.2. Each item (or at least each item variant) has its own set of efficacy skills. For example, a triage repair tool would have a skill to upgrade triage repair, whereas vehicle repair tools have a skill which boosts vehicle/installation repair. 2.3. There should be no skills for militia-grade items. 3. Active SP gain and cap is doubled. 4. Skill multiplier system is changed. (This idea is still being considered; I just thought of it as I was posting everything else) 4.1. All multipliers start at 2x. After spending 5 million SP (equivalent of getting 8 2x skills to Level 5), all multipliers increase to 3x. After spending another 5 million SP, multipliers increase from 3x to 4x. And so on. Change to the ISK system to support changes to SP 1. Costs of items must change Militia gear value remains the same. Standard gear value should be doubled. Advanced gear value should be ten times that of standard gear, And prototype gear ten times that of advanced gear. This includes modules, vehicles, etc. Everything. Cost of skill books should become at least 10 times more expensive. 1.1 If eventually, EVE players manufacture our items, then the materials required must have a total value which is equivalent to those stated above. 2. Payouts should make it difficult to purchase high-end items from simply playing instant battles Instant Battle payouts should give profit when playing with militia gear, and small profit if playing well with standard or advanced gear. But the cost of prototype gear should be so extreme that only PC battles can allow a mercenary to break even, even after dying 7-10 times. 2.1. Not sure how ISK payouts are calculated now, but it seems to reflect the performance of an individual. i.e. most WP = most ISK earned. This should remain how it is. 3. Allowing new players to thrive WITHOUT boxing them into a Battle Academy. Until a player purchases 10 million ISK worth of standard (or greater) gear, militia gear should be provided to a player free of charge.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 713	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:52:00 - [2] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Maybe its just me, but I have trouble reading this. So basically you want to be able to use any item, even proto items without having any skills. Then have all those items, except militia grade, have bonuses built into them according to your skills. I dunno. I like the idea of trying to unlock new weapons and armor and cars and stuff. Not making it a HUGE grind, but just something I can work towards. I think the fact that "most" items already have a militia or AUR try before you buy option renders much of this unessecary. I don't really mind the skills how they are now. I think there is alot missing, and I'm hoping that as they add new skills they decrease some of the others so newbies can catch up. Right now you need about 5-6M skillpoints to be Competitive with the oldest veteran players. That seems legit, if a little high, as that is currently about 20 weeks of soft cap grinding. [Edit]: We also want people to actually USE protogear. I always run 4k fits, I just like the challenge. But I don't mind people using protogear. Making it ungodly expensive will just drive AUR proto sales and then people will complain to no end about Pay to Win. You are correct. I want to be able to buy any item without having skilled into them, and skills are only there for passive bonuses. The feeling that you're unlocking new items will still remain, except you unlock them with ISK, and temporarily; essentially you lose or 're-lock' the item when you die or have no more cash to purchase it. Yes, there is the SP grind that goes, but there is still a (sort of) ISK grind. But here I see a crucial difference. There is no ISK 'cap', really. And ISK payouts for instant battles at least are already based on performance. This means AFKing becomes redundant; you don't get ISK for not earning WP. Furthermore, it doesn't feel as if you need to work every week to keep on par with the veterans. They'll be spending huge chunks of cash on items that they will have a great risk of losing, whereas new players are making profit with cheap militia gear, and how much the veterans spend compared to newbies is the balancing factor. Not to mention the many skills that you notice are 'missing'. What happens when CCP introduces them? Do we ask for more respecs? Or by that point, will the vets already have enough SP to skill into any new content, leaving the newberries even further behind? Either scenario can be avoided if SP wasn't so darn crucial.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 715	Posted - 2013.06.01 01:26:00 - [3] - Quote More thoughts?
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 715	Posted - 2013.06.01 03:22:00 - [4] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Quote: Complete Skill system overhaul 1. Skills do not unlock any items. 1.1. All items are already unlocked. WARNING: If CCP were to do this, then Eve Online players will start demanding the same thing and ultimately every player in New Eden will be flying Titans. In other words, you have a much higher liklihood of dying to a lightening strike while holding a rabbit than convincing CCP to unlock all weapons. Then CCP should simply ignore the capsuleers. Besides, EVE players can't say "I want this because DUST has it". Just because we're in the same universe doesn't mean it has to work in the exact same way. I too like grinding to unlock weapons. I too like the sense of accomplishment. But this goes out the window in a few years when I have enough SP to do whatever the hell I want. Oh, sure, CCP could bump up the multipliers and force us to respec. And do it again. And again, every two years. But new players in 4 years will be starting with huge multipliers which will have to be accounted for by massive starting SP, which once again detracts from that sense of progression. My suggestion still involves an ISK grind for weapons. Talos Alomar wrote: I also dislike the Idea of all multipliers changing based on total investment. You might not know this, but you can only put so much SP into a certain weapon, or class. once you hit max points then you HAVE to start speccing into something else. why should a basic suit skill have a 10x multiplier? This multiplier system was meant to work with the efficacy SP system I mentioned in the OP. It's supposed to allow easy specialisation into a role initially and progressively become more difficult to acquire efficacy in new roles.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2013.06.01 08:27:00 - [5] - Quote Wojciak wrote: You do know that they increased the SP requirements because the skill tree we had in beta was so people could use as much as they could, and now it is going to be where it is ( more or less for the life of the game). Ghis game will hopefully get wider and not just deeper. Also CCP is not EA and will not ** OFF their fain base by having BLATANT DOUBLE STANDERS and giving the bird to most of their fans (EVE players). Dust and EVE are in the same universe and Duster and Capsuleers almost exactly the same ( dusters are more advanced, as in they have their Emperion teck in their head and not the capsule), so why would they be so different in progression and how would they enplane that difference. Because EVE as a game does not equal DUST as a game, and the recipe for the success of one cannot be applied to the other. Talos Alomar wrote:** And I dislike what it's supposed to do. a bittervet should be able to fall in love with a new specialty down the line without having to grind 10x as hard. That system worked for Demon's Souls. It won't work for Dust. If you decide you love a certain role, then you can simply purchase the gear. My proposal entails that all gear is already unlocked; skills aren't necessary to unlock them. They provide additional bonuses based on a specific variant of equipment (very specific, if possible), and allows someone to truly specialise into a role, but doesn't prevent them from purchasing other gear to play other roles, up to prototype level. Essentially, skills give a small but significant edge over new players but not to the point where they're being annihilated every game because people who have prototype gear will not run it in public matches because it will cost too much, and also because skills are simply improves efficacy instead of unlocking gear which is prohibited to a new mercenary. And there is still a sense of achievement and progress! The ISK grind is what separates veterans and newbies, but since you can lose ISK, it balances out instant battles because their importance is not worth the ISK, and potential fun you get out of protostomping everyone.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 719	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:36:00 - [6] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: No it doesn't. When the tax system gets put up and/or the economies are linked there will be nothing out there stopping TEST, or Goonfleet, or Gentleman's Agreement, or any other established EVE entity from dumping piles of ISK on everybody so that all players will be using only proto gear when they fight for those corps. Do you really want the Instant Battle Academy to get proto stomped? what you are proposing will let that happen. There will a pub stomp the likes of which you have never seen or can even imagine. And what's stopping TEST, the goons or G's A from doing that now, with the current ISK system? Maken Tosch wrote: Do you remember what happened the last time CCP ignored the Capsuleers of New Eden? It wasn't pretty. Jita Riots -separate post- ...do you really think Dust can get away with being different for long 10 years down the road I recall one CCP representative saying that DUST and EVE would be like two windows through which you view the same house. Integration is fine, but if capsuleers want all game mechanics of DUST working like it does in EVE, I think I may have underestimated their ignorance. Draco Cerberus wrote: This proposal sounds like a request to turn Dust into COD imo this is not the way to go. Choices matter. What you propose is that choices don't matter. Everyone is not equal nor should they be. -separate post- Indeed, the current system is satisfying and rewards hard work and excellence in battle as well as out of battle. I find prestige classes a dissatisfying way of rewarding grinding. But, as I've repeated quite a few times between my two threads on this matter, how long can it remain satisfying? When you reach 50 mill SP? 100 mill? After that, where's the satisfaction in acquiring new skills? Where's the satisfaction in playing instant battles when you can purchase anything and everything, and have the ability to wield it? I'm suggesting that a mercenary progresses as his wallet enlargens, but this growth fluctuates because you lose ISK as well as gain it. What I see is DUST mercenaries becoming reliant on funding from capsuleers, and this is better than being independent from funding and then receiving even more money which simply allows someone to protostomp all day, instead of in moderation. And CoD's prestige system certainly was a factor in influencing me to reconsider DUST's system. But I in no way endorse such a system for DUST.