DUST Search - Balancing should be deployed rapidly with hotfixes

Eddie Rio wrote:

Hey Fatty wrote:

I fail to see why there is such an issue with the TAR on the battlefield.

Yes I see that the stats and range are a bit crazy on paper, and a lot of people are "adapting" quite well here in New Eden by using it exclusively. I personally dont die to these rifles anymore than I do to randomly tossed locust grenades that dont show up on my HUD; or red misted by a forge gun from above, ect. Maybe its just I find it easy to actively seek cover while in combat. Being situationally aware really helps. Zigging and Zagging...NOT JUMPING when they are shooting from a distance. (Heavies, im sorry, just wipe the honey off your legs and try to keep up, I got your back!)

But instead of just causing destructive nerfs to the guns that, in many people's eyes, are OP; try to focus on making progressive movement towards what can be done to the other weapons to get them on par with the TAR. I havnt seen any competent attempts with the Lazer Rifles this update because they are complete trash. I used to fear Mass Drivers with their stopping/suppressing power. I once gave a crap about NOT being shot by a shot gun. Let's try to actually make progress on our guns, and let the TAR users shine. Use that energy to help yourself as well as the entire player base; not nerf an entire weapon into the dust because they are FoTM

I use a scrambler rifle and like it quite a bit, Iv taken down countless TAR users in serveral different situations that should have been in their favor by actively being situationally aware of what I was doing, who was near, what was near by to hide behind. Bullets wizzing past my head from behind? Duck and cover left around this corner, tactical reload, engage, retreat, engage, kill.

A lot can get you fragged in a battle, but tunnel vissioning will set you up for failure.
I may be wrong on so many levels in most of your eyes; and thats to be expected. I know everyone has their own play style, tactics, beliefs, and opinions. This was just some from my point of view. -Cheers!

this !!!

dont nerf one of the only guns that work in this game,, work on getting the rest up to the same level!!!

else we just be dancing around each other for ages and not actually killing each other


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Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 45	Posted - 2013.05.24 17:03:00 - [1] - Quote I am seriously one of the most nimble and quick to disengage period. However, not much can be done when you are an SG Scout. SG and Scout is bound to die a lot. I am even OK with this to an extent. But by playing this class to proto I have found that you cannot remain competitive for the following reasons: Lets compare end game, or even late game fits: Creodron SG: Damage: 44 RoF: 85.7 Accuracy: 34.2 Clip Size: 8 Max Ammo: 32 Reload Time: 0.6 Meta: 7 CPU: 93 PG: 14 Range: Poor Creodron AR: Damage: 56.1 RoF: 400 Accuracy: 58 Clip Size: 36 Max Ammo: 300 Reload Time: 3.0 Meta: 9 CPU: 90 PG: 13 Range: Great *My own stat to add here is Range These are the highest level proto's of comparable proto weapons from each category. So you see, the problem is not the TAC AR, but all AR's. This means the SG strength actually lies early on when the OHK is more likely to happen due to competition having weaker suits. As you progress, the disparity just becomes greater as OHK ability is largely lost to anything except a Scout if you can hit him. End game is not the savior for the SG. Even the reload time is off as it takes .6 seconds per round to be loaded vs. the AR taking 3 seconds to reload 36 rounds, but didn't wanna bring that up as that would open up the discussion to the SG using "projectiles" when calculating dmg. However can anyone tell me with a straight face that an AR will not outdps an SG? Doubtful. You can make an argument for "burst dmg" but if you are not getting the OHK it doesn't matter as RoF will negate any burst dmg bonus you could've hoped for. Just saying, that it's really not hard to see why AR Users dominate against every other weapon, even if you didn't have "in the field" experience to go on. You can say that everyone just needs more cover or whatever, but since cover is a variable that anyone can take advantage of it really doesn't justify that an AR user who uses cover would find the same bonus to productivity as someone using another weapon. Just compare the two weapons, and you see the disparity. I agree with the OP, with MMO's in general balance is always strived for but never achieved. Perfect Balance is a pipe dream. MMO's require many tweaks on a consistent basis when it comes to balance, always and for the life of the game. This keeps balance by ever changing the "flavor of the week" and getting closer and closer to perfection with each tweak. To again be offset when something new comes out and the process starts all over. I think they have been consumed by approaching other issues to stabalize the game as they know balance is a never ending goal. But to ignore it for drastic amounts of time is almost criminal. A Scout SG is put in a bad predicament. You die easily, and will die often, so while your suits are cheaper, the single most cost effective solution is to not die. This is because you don't gain much extra ISK for doing well as doing poorly. As a Scout with an Advanced Suit using a Proto SG will cost you 40k ISK conservatively, once you die 5 times in a skirmish you are in the RED as far as ISK is concerned. Meaning, in end game you will not be able to afford to compete without using a steady diet of militia fits, as a Scout will die easily 5 times per skirmish. This is not even proto fits, (which I agree you should not be able to field for each life). This offers yet another advantage to survivable suits as they will have not only the better suit, using the better weapon, (AR), but will be able to afford to field at least an advanced suit for every life. So what I am saying is this, if SG Scouts cannot be competitive early on, they most definitely cannot be competitive in end game. This snowball effect benefits those who have the best weapons, (AR obviously) with the most survivable suit, (you could argue this one and I only have Assault and Scout experience to base this on). In the end I have used AR's and SG, (as well as many other weapons during Beta), in this build. I was far more successful with the AR default fitting than I am with the SG Scout Valor fit, with much less practice and definitely less skill, (I pull off some pretty impressive SG kills as I am "good" with it). But the SG Scout fit is just not sustainable in the long run, regardless of how good at the position you are. This conclusion is based on the fact that the AR is a better weapon, the Scout does not survive well to the point that even though you are nimble you can simply spray and pray and most likely 3 bullets will hit the Scout inflicting death. The ISK rewards to not compensate for Kills appropriately, but your costs for deaths is consistent. So, as a SG Scout using an advanced fit I can plan to go 16/8, 22/12, ect. While also hacking more objectives than anyone because of my speed. Even doing so, I will clear 250k at most, using a fit that cost 50k. If you do the math you can see that having a really good game using only an advanced fit still will cost me over 120k, thats the opposite of profit. Can you really say this is intended? Even though Scouts are cheaper suits, the differential doesn't make up for the extra deaths. Why do I get almost as much ISK reward for doing poorly as doing well? All these factors contribute to the imbalance and should be considered. From complex issues like proper ISK rewards and how they affect balance to the simple comparison of the weapon stats, a "perfect storm" has been created that causes a major imbalance in some areas. Constant tweaks help to keep this in-check and flowing in the right direction generally. Sorry for the long post but I did this math last night and it donned on me I cannot continue with the spec of my choice and will be respeccing after my reset takes affect. Maybe a heavy so I can do AV and AI without too much investment dispersion.
Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 45	Posted - 2013.05.24 17:42:00 - [2] - Quote Full Metal Kitten wrote: ... I know, it's a wall of text lol. Had to get it out there though. I really want to run an SG Scout, but man, the end game is bleak if they don't balance it back out soon.
Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 45	Posted - 2013.05.24 17:47:00 - [3] - Quote Aside from a few people, (always an exception), I don't think anyone would be unreasonable about it either. Everyone's here because they want to be. Smaller more consistent tweaks on a weekly basis would be easy to digest and most people will be on board. What people really want to see is progress towards achieving balance, not "balance achieved". You will keep peoples hopes alive that their fit is the next one to get the OP buff and the last OP buff fit is now hobbled by the nerf bat. But people will deal with this when they know it's gonna be changed again soon. Perfection is always sought, never achieved, should be the mindset when it comes to tweaks.
Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 45	Posted - 2013.05.24 17:57:00 - [4] - Quote Eddie Rio wrote: Hey Fatty wrote: I fail to see why there is such an issue with the TAR on the battlefield. Yes I see that the stats and range are a bit crazy on paper, and a lot of people are "adapting" quite well here in New Eden by using it exclusively. I personally dont die to these rifles anymore than I do to randomly tossed locust grenades that dont show up on my HUD; or red misted by a forge gun from above, ect. Maybe its just I find it easy to actively seek cover while in combat. Being situationally aware really helps. Zigging and Zagging...NOT JUMPING when they are shooting from a distance. (Heavies, im sorry, just wipe the honey off your legs and try to keep up, I got your back!) But instead of just causing destructive nerfs to the guns that, in many people's eyes, are OP; try to focus on making progressive movement towards what can be done to the other weapons to get them on par with the TAR. I havnt seen any competent attempts with the Lazer Rifles this update because they are complete trash. I used to fear Mass Drivers with their stopping/suppressing power. I once gave a crap about NOT being shot by a shot gun. Let's try to actually make progress on our guns, and let the TAR users shine. Use that energy to help yourself as well as the entire player base; not nerf an entire weapon into the dust because they are FoTM I use a scrambler rifle and like it quite a bit, Iv taken down countless TAR users in serveral different situations that should have been in their favor by actively being situationally aware of what I was doing, who was near, what was near by to hide behind. Bullets wizzing past my head from behind? Duck and cover left around this corner, tactical reload, engage, retreat, engage, kill. A lot can get you fragged in a battle, but tunnel vissioning will set you up for failure. I may be wrong on so many levels in most of your eyes; and thats to be expected. I know everyone has their own play style, tactics, beliefs, and opinions. This was just some from my point of view. -Cheers! this !!! dont nerf one of the only guns that work in this game,, work on getting the rest up to the same level!!! else we just be dancing around each other for ages and not actually killing each other I actually think it would work better to that degree. What better way to drive home the aspect of teamwork and the strengths and benefits of each suit than to have a knock down drag out battle. This forces you to behave tactically. Remember this isn't supposed to be like other shooters where someone drops quickly. If anything, this reminds me more of Halo where one on one battles can take a bit to finish, with sometime the result being both parties retreating. Answer me this, why are longer battles a bad thing? Obviously if you have the tactical advantage it will still be quick, but 1vs1, why should this battle be quick? Would not more "skill" come into play with a longer battle? Would not more tactical benefits emerge in a longer battle? Would teamwork benefits not come into play more if you were faced with a long battle when attempting to solo? This would seem to appease everyone. So why such the emphasis from soo many about short battles?
Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 45	Posted - 2013.05.24 18:49:00 - [5] - Quote omega 015 wrote: I personally think the other weapons not released yet could balance out the TAR. Before we nerf or buff anything, CCP should release what they're working on. The MTAC could very well be the main counter to infantry as well as giving tanks another role on the battlefield. The other weapons released would need the killing potential of the TAR, meaning you would still have a grouping of under-developed weapons however. I would really like someone to tell me what is good about a short and quick firefight. If anyone can. I am not asking to be facetious but am generally wondering what benefits that brings if any, or if anyone has thought about that. Since that is used as logic for most of the "don't nerf anything arguments". I appreciate the thought though, and you may be right to a degree but what about the weapons already not feeling the love?