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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
Orion Empire
93
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Posted - 2013.05.24 00:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
I play as strictly a heavy.
Adapt or Die!...okay!
You want me as a defensive role, fine, not a problem!
I think outside the box! There are ways to defend other than simply camping a hacked objective.
EDIT: not gonna tell you all my tactics 
I have adapted. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 12:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
The HMG needs this:
Master Jaraiya wrote:
I understand you wanted to make the Heavy play the role of point defender. To me this means being able to take on at least a full squad of 6 by myself as is often the case. In order for this to happen HMG needs either:
category a.) Longer range, tighter bullet spread, less kick/heat build up, smaller targeting reticule, wind up upon ADS, suppression effect: stopping power (-__% movement speed per landed round), more damage
or
category b.)Faster turning speed, more damage, faster wind up when AFH, suppression effect: blur (-__% visibility per landed round), longer range, tighter spread, wind up upon ADS, less kick/heat build up
I wouldn't mind seeing a category a.) HMG(point man assaulter) and a category b.) HMG(point defender) in each tier for the HMG in order to add more diversification for the Heavy's role. Either one of these categories would work for point defender, however.
These are my suggestions please note under each category suggestions are listed in order of importance for intended purpose.
These suggestions are based off of my own experience, other players' suggestions, and the DEVs'/players' communications.
Had this posted in another thread, but it didn't receive much attention for some reason. Personally I think this is exactly what the HMG needed then and my opinion hasn't changed. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
321
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 17:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:Disturbingly Bored wrote:D legendary hero wrote:
STD HMG -600dps +10% = 660dps + 15% procficiency = 760.35 +18% (2 complex damage mods) = 897.2 dps - 35% dispersion = 583.2dps at optimal range.
past optimal range damage fall off is almost 20 damage per meter past optimal, (i.e. 10 m eters past optimal is a 200damage reduction) and then there is the hard cap.
militia AR - 425dps +10% = 467.5dps + 15% proficiency = 537.625 + 18% (2 complex damage mods) = 634.4 dps - 3% dispersion = 615.4dps at optimal range
past optimal damage reduction is near 6-7 i may be wrong though.
Here's the problem with your math: DPS is a statistic anyone can verify. Your figures for dispersion are something you made up. I can just as easily state that dispersion for HMG is 15-20%, and then the HMG does 717.76 DPS at optimal, still beating the AR. I can also say (as subjectively as your guess at dispersion numbers) that there are no dispersion effects whatsoever if your target fills your reticule, and the HMG at optimal spanks the crap out of AR as long as you're good enough to keep your target in your sights. As for tracking: tweak your settings. If I can keep my sights on a bunny-hopping proto Assault, you can too. Quote:remember this was a comparison of the militia AR to a STD HMG. the proto HMG is only 1.8 damage per shot higher, where as proto ARs increase by 2 or 3 more damage per shot. the disperity is evident. I'm sorry, but you're looking at this incorrectly, too. Proto HMG does 10% more damage than basic HMG. Proto Assault does 10% more damage than base Assault. The DPS increase is the same. Check your numbers. I won't comment on range, because here we actually agree. It's the only legitimate complaint for HMG at the moment, and it'll be interesting to see what changes in 1.2. This... tried to say this already but i go from experiance not numbers lol.
35% dispertion might be right... but that isnt a direct reduction in dps! If i put the barrels of my gun and plant them on someones face dispertion means squat... if i then move back a meter im still hitting for full... 10m sure, i might get the odd stray bullet... 20m, i might start losing some dps... 30m, missing more... 40m now theres some notable loss...
but never have i lost 35% of my dps... not until theyre out past my optimal and my recitle is twice the size of the target anyway lol and of course that reduces after firing a bit... more if i aim down the "sights" http://i.imgur.com/Dh2wv7o.jpg refer to this to see that range is an issue 2km plus for HEAVY MACHINE GUNS ours goes 30m~ and does shite damage and loses a lot of dps due to that dispersion. (.50 cal, 20mm, and 30mm, are all HMGs for those who do not know, and as the in game HMG looks acts it like the 20mm)
What we have in Dust is more like the M134 Minigun. Look.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun
notice it fires the 7.62 mmm round, at a rate of 2k - 6k RPM and a range of about 1000m.
Compared to the M16 AR
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
Notice it fires the 5.56mm round (smaller bullet = less damage) oh yea our AR fires plasma rounds
Notice the sustained RPM (rate it is commonly used to be the most effective in combat) 15 RPM ok cry some? Cyclic RPM (weapons fastest mechanical ability) (spray n pray shooting) 950 RPM Effective range 550m point Target (accurate shooting) 800m area target (innacurate used for area denial)
So is balance off between these types of weapons in DUST 514?...well you tell me! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
321
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 18:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
THEDRiZZLE Aqua teen wrote:Lol its not thatbad and 1.2 ccp will increase the range of every gun . Further more ive only beena heavy it wastoo good in chromosome and other then the RANGE its fine i play multiple games with out dying everyday. Its not godmod if you sucka heavy is not the answer.
All I'm saying is an HMG should do just barely more damage per round and outrange any AR while an AR is much more accurate. The HMG should restrict the AR user to cover until the AR user is able to get within range. Currently in Dust 514 the roles of these weapons are completely reversed. The Heavy with HMG is forced to stay in cover until the AR user gets within his range. The problem is it is much easier for the highly accurate AR user to remain outside HMG range and pick the Heavy off from inside his cover.
The AR should NEVER outrange the HMG.
Here is why. HMG is an area denial weapon. If I have to be inside your effective range for my rounds to make a difference I have failed by default because you were not denied access via your main assault. However if HMG had more renge than AR it could be effective at its job (area denial) forcing the enemy to use flanking maneuvers to gain access to the point im defending. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
321
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 18:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
THEDRiZZLE Aqua teen wrote:and ive been a heavy since day one so im speaking for heavies that are having no trouble atm my kpd is 4.11 or higher that's what It was last I checked so if your good at this game your good at any suit and people want heavies to be so good its not god mod like I said I can go a whole day with a good squad getting 10 plus kills each game with out dying
I didn't say I want a god mode heavy. You completely ignored my previous post where I outlined that the HMG needs more range to perform its job and why. That has nothing to do with anyone's kdr. I never said the HMG cannot kill. It can kill. I simply stated that it cannot perform the role of a Point Defense weapon because it lacks the range to perform its job. There is really no logical argument that can be made against that. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
321
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 18:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
THEDRiZZLE Aqua teen wrote:you ignored myn as well because I said a million times that ccp on july 2nd is increasing range of all guns stop being ignorant and clouding up the forums go to new on dust 514 right now and read the dev report and just stfu please
They are removing the hard range cap. Not increasing range. They are doing this on all weapons, so the HMG will be equally effective at doing its job as it is now.
They are not giving the HMG more range than the AR. They are introducing damage falloff. This means when bullets reach the max range they will begin doing less and less damage as they travel.
Currently when rounds from the HMG reach their max range they are only doing a laughable amount of damage because of dispersion.
Adding damage falloff does absolutely nothing to solve this problem. Increasing the max range qnd optimal range for the HMG to a value greater than that of the AR would completely solve the problem!
So GTFO n go reread the patch notes and DEV blogs n00b! Grown folks are talkin here! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
323
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 20:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote: Notice it fires the 5.56mm round (smaller bullet = less damage) oh yea our AR fires plasma rounds Notice the sustained RPM (rate it is commonly used to be the most effective in combat) 15 RPM ok cry some? Cyclic RPM (weapons fastest mechanical ability) (spray n pray shooting) 950 RPM Effective range 550m point Target (accurate shooting) 800m area target (innacurate used for area denial) So is balance off between these types of weapons in DUST 514?...well you tell me! I hope you are defending my point because yes the balance is off. Range and Damage should be higher than an AR by your methodology. (Also minigun is classified as a small arms weapon ie LMG not HMG looking up the FM now) Edit: Here ya go small arms defined as: Any gun below a 20-millimeter bore size is generally classified as a small arm. An alternative term gaining increasing currency is "light arms," to include individual and light support weapons. 2nd edit: I think HMG damage is fine just needs range So our HMG should really be a light weapon if it mimics a minigun?
No I'm not saying that at all. The only reason it is classified as a light infantry weapon irl is because of the round it fires. The only reason it uses this round is for logistics purposes. Which means there are less types of ammo to haul around. Typically you find this weapon used in mounted applications as an area denial/crowd control weapon. You find in mounted in bunkers, outposts, humvees and Helos otherwise it typically takes 2 to 3 troops on foot to transport the gun itself, the ammunition, and the external powersource required to operate it. This makes it impractical for smaller scale military operations limited to only light infantry. Typically this weapon is brought into battlegrounds by vehicle and set up only after infantry has cleared the area. The reason it classifies as a heavy weapon in DUST 514 is because it becomes single man portable when combined with the Heavy Class Dropsuits. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
324
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:KOBLAKA1 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote: Notice it fires the 5.56mm round (smaller bullet = less damage) oh yea our AR fires plasma rounds Notice the sustained RPM (rate it is commonly used to be the most effective in combat) 15 RPM ok cry some? Cyclic RPM (weapons fastest mechanical ability) (spray n pray shooting) 950 RPM Effective range 550m point Target (accurate shooting) 800m area target (innacurate used for area denial) So is balance off between these types of weapons in DUST 514?...well you tell me! I hope you are defending my point because yes the balance is off. Range and Damage should be higher than an AR by your methodology. (Also minigun is classified as a small arms weapon ie LMG not HMG looking up the FM now) Edit: Here ya go small arms defined as: Any gun below a 20-millimeter bore size is generally classified as a small arm. An alternative term gaining increasing currency is "light arms," to include individual and light support weapons. 2nd edit: I think HMG damage is fine just needs range So our HMG should really be a light weapon if it mimics a minigun? No I'm not saying that at all. The only reason it is classified as a light infantry weapon irl is because of the round it fires. The only reason it uses this round is for logistics purposes. Which means there are less types of ammo to haul around. Typically you find this weapon used in mounted applications as an area denial/crowd control weapon. You find in mounted in bunkers, outposts, humvees and Helos otherwise it typically takes 2 to 3 troops on foot to transport the gun itself, the ammunition, and the external powersource required to operate it. This makes it impractical for smaller scale military operations limited to only light infantry. Typically this weapon is brought into battlegrounds by vehicle and set up only after infantry has cleared the area. The reason it classifies as a heavy weapon in DUST 514 is because it becomes single man portable when combined with the Heavy Class Dropsuits. TL;DR the size of the weapon itself, not the size of fire ammo is what makes it a "heavy weapon" I'll buy that but our range and damage should still be greater than an AR then
At the very least our HMG should be 20% more than that of the AR. Our damage should be between the AR and the SMG. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
327
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 13:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Honestly I'm cool with heavies being point defense.
Honestly I don't think they are.
Heavies HMGs are simply not as powerful as ARs at any range. The HMG accuracy is still a real problem imo.
Judgingvfrom my experience actual accuracy only effects CQC. If you care to go back a couple pages and read my posts you will see why HMGs are not meant for CQC. HMGs should be the absolute best area denial weapon in the game.
As i stated earlier the HMG values for maximum and effective range need to be increased to 20% more than the AR. Our damage should be increased to somewhere between the SMG and AR. It should probably stay closer to the SMG maybe 1 point more. I'll also add that the time it takes to spin up should be slightly reduced. As it stands now we are 1/4 of the way through 1 reload by the time we have enough accuracy to be effective. By this time 1/3 of our HP is usually gone and we haven't killed anyone yet.
At least that usually my experience. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
331
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 04:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:D legendary hero wrote:way to long to burn through shields, and since everyone shield tanks you end up losing or being crippled in 1v1s and since this is a supressive fire weapon, its kinda pitiful not being able to supress one person Flux grenades work really, really nice with HMG. Especially if you have 2-3 reds clustered together. Just a friendly tip.
I would use flux nades, but sadly I have to equip AV nades or become roadkill!
Before you say "don't run in the open n00b" or something similar, I don't. I have seen these carmageddon guys get into some crazy places to get kills! SMH |
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