DUST Search - Implement a Skill Respec System

Geirskoegul wrote:

Quite simply, this is the most appropriate and reasonable option, but I'd modify it. Make it exactly like attribute respecs in EVE: you start the game with two, and after you use the second it has a 12 month cooldown. This would enable newbies to try different things and not feel locked into something, as well as allowing long-time players to mix things up and decide to try something entirely new later on.

Tying it to isk or aurum would not be appropriate, and as another pointed out, effectively make Dust pay-to-win. Once the economies are completely linked and/or once PvE content is introduced, isk acquisition will be trivial, and so the ability to just purchase a respec whenever it's needed, even if prices slowly increase, would simply let you spec whatever was needed for your target in the corp battles.

The neural remap system from EVE is probably the perfect option here.

Even this much, though, is a concession that isn't really needed (except for very early when players are still learning and experimenting), as there is no upper cap to the SP and skills you can have. Bought a skill you decide you don't want? No big, just earn some more SP and train another skill. In the past CCP hasn't even offered SP refunds when they change a skill in such a way that you no longer want it (I'm still bitter about wasted SP on Ethnic Relations, since it no longer serves any purpose unless you're a sissy corp that can defend itself). There's really just no need in a game that doesn't have a max limit on what you can train in the end.


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Pro'fane RestlessSpirits 2	Posted - 2013.05.19 02:37:00 - [1] - Quote One of the biggest barriers to this game is, in my opinion, the skill system. Points are not easily or quickly acquired and much of the weapons and suits don't show any real promise until at least the 3rd skill level. I understand not having an easily accessed skill respec, as it would mean players could change their role on the fly (and therefore give high-SP players an advantage in ALL battles). However, a scaling skill respec wouldn't be amiss, especially for new players. Many of the weapons in the game don't have comparable fellows in other FPS multiplayer games. I'd like to try out things like the scrambler rifle, or the laser rifle, but won't because I'd be locked into that or simply have a good chunk of points burned into something I'll never use if I don't like the weapon class. Secondarily, every time hotfixes and complete overhauls occur, the individual changes alone can make or break whatever class you're in. I've played maybe twice since the massive May 6th update. I absolutely hate the changes to the class I used prior to the update, and feel my points have been largely wasted. I have requested a respec, of course, but I have no doubt that this will be a continual problem as the game evolves. And I am one of the players who've put actual money into the game. I'd have put more into it this weekend, except I have very strong doubts I'll want to play this for much longer (and my #1 problem is the lack of respec). Lastly, for every person complaining about various weapons being OP (and we have ALL done it), a respec offers a simple solution. If a weapon is OP and being heavily used, you simply change your skills to compensate for it. It allows for player-based responses to 'OP' weapons rather than needing CCCP to tweak things on a constant basis. (Plus, I suspect most people claiming OP weapons could skill into them and see for themselves that they aren't, putting down a big chunk of complaints.) My suggestion: a respec system that is extremely expensive (ISK-wise) after the first use. And every time you use it, doubles or more. Eventually, you'd never be able to get enough ISK to afford even a single respec. A postscript: I searched and didn't find a topic for this, so if it exists, please move my post there. I never seem to find what I'm looking for with the search system.
Pro'fane RestlessSpirits 2	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:17:00 - [2] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Scan Sweep wrote: Although I'm strictly against a skill point respec option because this would just be against all gaming principles of CCP (risk vs reward & choices with real consequences) I do think that at least while in the Academy, new players should have this option once they drop out of the academy. DUST is already hard enough for people who aren't familiar with CCP's game design at all but I also think there is no need to hit them with the "NO-Second-Chance Stick" right away. I like this idea better. Anything more than this, and Dust 514 becomes p2w, whether it's isk or rmt. Well, that's sort of the point of it eventually becoming impossible to reach the ISK needed for a respec. You set out a high, but reasonable 2nd respec fee, then exponentially increase it every time it's used. Ideally, only a handful are possible for a character. So even if someone manages to p2w up to that extreme ISK cost once, the next respec will be double (or square, whatever) that amount. So unless the game implements an AUR-to-ISK thing, a scaling respec system wouldn't cause your scenario (and for those who might buy ISK with real cash, it'd be fairly easy to see who was doing so with the goal of abusing the respec system). I get the whole 'your decisions have consequences' thing. But it just doesn't work as well in a FPS, imo. And it especially doesn't work when the developers are tweaking gear all the time. You spec into something decent (not OP) and a few weeks later it becomes the worst thing to have in the game. What few FPS games I've played, I tended to respec into a bunch of different weapon/gear/skill combos until I found one that I liked, then stuck with that for the rest of the time I played the game. A shotgun isn't the same shotgun in every game, y'know? And those were in games with relatively rare gear tweaks. Ahh, the old days.
Pro'fane RestlessSpirits 3	Posted - 2013.05.22 12:56:00 - [3] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: Quite simply, this is the most appropriate and reasonable option, but I'd modify it. Make it exactly like attribute respecs in EVE: you start the game with two, and after you use the second it has a 12 month cooldown. This would enable newbies to try different things and not feel locked into something, as well as allowing long-time players to mix things up and decide to try something entirely new later on. Tying it to isk or aurum would not be appropriate, and as another pointed out, effectively make Dust pay-to-win. Once the economies are completely linked and/or once PvE content is introduced, isk acquisition will be trivial, and so the ability to just purchase a respec whenever it's needed, even if prices slowly increase, would simply let you spec whatever was needed for your target in the corp battles. The neural remap system from EVE is probably the perfect option here. Even this much, though, is a concession that isn't really needed (except for very early when players are still learning and experimenting), as there is no upper cap to the SP and skills you can have. Bought a skill you decide you don't want? No big, just earn some more SP and train another skill. In the past CCP hasn't even offered SP refunds when they change a skill in such a way that you no longer want it (I'm still bitter about wasted SP on Ethnic Relations, since it no longer serves any purpose unless you're a sissy corp that can defend itself). There's really just no need in a game that doesn't have a max limit on what you can train in the end. There are huge differences in the kind of games EVE and Dust 514 are. EVE is a long-lived PC game with a very specific kind of audience and not a massive amount of similar games. Dust 514 has an audience that can be satisfied by a large number of other games, with several new ones added every year. EVE is also considerably slower. Expecting to slowly train skills is a given for the type of game it is. An FPS, on the other hand, has always had a high degree of variability, including the idea that you have the opportunity to try different combinations of gear/skills until you find something comfortable. Arguing that Dust 514 should be locked into the same kind of system as EVE simply because they share a dev and universe is just illogical. As for the ISK problem, a cooldown is acceptable, or maybe a 3-month period of being able to switch things up more frequently. But the idea isn't to slowly increase the price but to increase it exponentially to the point that it takes months of ISK-grinding to be able to afford a single respec with the penalty being the next one will cost you even more. So sure, some players might be able to drain ISK from the EVE economy well enough to afford even the most eyebrow-raising respec cost...but a cooldown would take care of that (though once per year is pretty pointless given the shelf-life of most FPS games, particularly on consoles). So, too, would the fact that only a few respecs would be needed to figure out what you'd want. Why waste ISK on an unneeded respec when you can put it towards gear or clones? I guess the respec system problem really goes to the heart of the game. Is Dust aimed at FPS players or is it aimed at ISK-grinding for EVE players? I also don't think it's comparable to the level-grinding of WoW, given that WoW has different types of gameplay. The only thing Dust has right now is FPS and some vehicle combat. Basically, BF3 with level-grinding. Anyway, as an FPS player, I don't have interest being locked into an gamestyle that I find unpleasant rather than fun. It's why I'm playing a PS+ game right now rather than Dust.
Pro'fane RestlessSpirits 4	Posted - 2013.05.23 06:08:00 - [4] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: I support a respec option only until CCP learns how to tweak balance changes. As it is they make such ridiculously large swings that at any given time what some of us spec into can and will be nerfed into utterly useless oblivion. At which point you're stuck in an absolutely dead-end build for the next 6 months with no recourse. The only safe spec is Assault/AR. Especially till they stop tweaking/balancing. I actually dislike assault now. Sigh.
Pro'fane RestlessSpirits 4	Posted - 2013.05.23 06:24:00 - [5] - Quote Radioship wrote: No respec. Ever. If you fail at understanding game mechanics - its your own personal fault. Like you do in EVE. This is harsh game that requires you to actualy think what you are doing now and in 6-12-24 months futher. If you want to try something out - create an alt. If you don't understand game (starter / newbie) after some time - recreate character. This game is not for "i've played 3 months Assault, got bored / suck, now i will be playing heavy effortless" Use calculators, spreadsheets, brains... This is what EVE:DUST about, not mindless trying things out. You can't imagine how many failed characters already in EVE, people who skill into Science for half a year and than skilled into combat character. If its fine and working in EVE it should be the same in DUST. CCP failed HARD offering TWO, DAMN TWO respecs in a row... How can you fail your character if you already had TWO respecs? This way CCP gave people hope for whine/cry/pay for respecs that never happened in EVE for 10 years... You know, the vast majority of people I hear this from are EVE players. The people who want some kind of respec, even limited, are the ones coming over from other FPS games. And I guarantee you, most of us have zero interest in spending hours with calculators and spreadsheets to figure out what skills work best for us, if only because you are not going to know how those skills actually operate in battle until you've used them. RTS is a whole different kind of game, where calculators and spreadsheets work amazingly well for what you're doing. For one thing, you aren't as big a variable in EVE as in an FPS. An EVE ship will work the same in the hands of another player with the same skills. Strategy, of course, will decide the game, but it's not going to play differently. A shotgun, on the other hand, will. Furthermore, name one console FPS game that has lasted 10 years. We don't plan ahead that far because there's never been a need. And if Dust creates that need, people will just go elsewhere. Basically, should CCCP create artificial barriers to entry and retention, or should they lower them in an attempt to compete with other games on the market? Purity serves no purpose if this game gets shelved within a year because it has fewer regular players than two year-old games.