Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
League of Infamy
952
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Posted - 2013.05.13 04:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:this plea falls on deaf ears. CCP is shown only to make HUGE pendulum like swings in balance. everything is either totally UP or so freakishly OP that it basically invalidates the game.(tanks, lasers, dropships, now caldari logis and tac rifles being massively OP)
lasers used to wing you and put a heavy in the grave. now I can simply rush them while tanking minimal damage in my scout suit from about 40 meters out.(poor bastard lost a viziam to some chump with standard knives.)
I've actually been able to do that since the LR hit the field, being quick and rushing them has always been a highly effective counter to the LR.
Having said that I'm not actually disputing the point that changes have been on the heavy handed side, I simply found this particular example ironic.
Back on topic
I'd like someone to provide a clear and through explanation of why the Assault should be "tanky" and how having a slower suit with a larger hitbox and lessor scan precision being able to (at the expense of additional SP/ISK invested) gain a higher eHP is a violation of role specialization or game balance.
What it sounds like so far is more that the racial bonuses provided to assaults are underwhelming to the general playerbase, that's not a cause to nerf anything that's cause to retool the underwhelming effects.
(Side note: the Cal Logi looks like it may out preform the other racial Logi suits which would be cause for a tone down on the Cal suit)
There's also the matter of the better shield recharge that the Assault gets, the ability to rabidly resort HP raises the eHP even if it doesn't raise the buffer (and it also costs nothing in either ISK or fittings, it's cost is fully SP).
So, open floor, make the case (with details rather than declarations please) as to why this is a problem, how that breaks proper Risk v Reward scaling and why the solution you'd propose is the appropriate remedy.
~Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
League of Infamy
954
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:At the moment, saying Logi arent the best suit to play assault is being very very very blind..
It was obvious before Fanfest with the bonuses from SIsi. Obvious at FanFest when playing it. Obvious in Uprising now on a daily basis.
This may be accurate of the Caldari Logi under the current (not all weapons/changes in) status but I've yet to see anyone make a case for how that's true about the others (many statements than it is, but as yet in the ~5 threads I've read on the subject no supporting theory let alone numbers).
Quote:I see here and there that logi have to be Tanky  I'm sorry but in my book, support units needs to be protected by frontline players so they can keep offering support and not be mow down. Otherwise, why would logistic suit have less base hp than assault and heavies ?
The ability to apply fittings to adapt to the rigors/constrains of the role is central to the Logi (just as versatility is central to the AR line).
Logi can fit a reasonable tank, at a higher per fittings ISK cost and with a heavy SP investment, they're supposed to be able to do this otherwise why would the logistics suit have more base CPU and PG than assault and heavies?
You mention that other classes should defend the Logi, I'd like you to describe how that can be done within the context of an active firefight. Please give 5 diverse examples which don't include either "while the Logi hides" or "while the Logi waits out of range".
Quote:
The question here is not about breaking Logi or buffing assault or else. It's about re-defining roles in general.
What is a logi and what should it be able to do ?
1) Carry lots of equipments ? Yes
2) Having a lot of PG\CPU to support those equipment ? Yes
3) Having less potential EHP than any other medium\large suit ? Yes
4) Being slower than an assault oriented suit ? Yes
5) Being the number one choice for any DPS player ? NO NO AND NO
I agree with all points on your list save #3, treating buffer tank as EHP (which is what this assessment does) is flawed to begin with but beyond that even if it were actually EHP that's still not survivability as it ignores both mobility and 'DPS tank'.
Quote:
So now, where does the problem come from with logis being so versatile ? Problem comes from number 2) and the fact that logistics have more Hi\Low Slots than any other suit. But what are those slots good for in a support role ? None as far as i know.
sic
If you take Cald\Gall assault compared to their logi version, you in fact have 2 more slots on the logi suits because you WILL use a PG or CPU extender on your assault suit. One could even say 3 with the built in armor rep that an assault will probably have to fit as well.
First support comes in many forms, if CCP were to further split the Logi suits so that each race had 2-3 more devoted to given roles then the slot layouts could be changed (along with the other stats) to accommodate that line of thinking. Failing that those slots are needed so the Logi can maintain some level of parity with the other classes on the field, a parity that is paid for in both SP and ISK as mods are being used to make up for base frame shortfalls.
Unless you run in squads with solid cohesion and a decent Logi, in which case there are totally viable builds (even without the broken TAR) which don't use the layouts you've described and can still top the leaderboard in both WP and Kills (I run with guys fit this way on an almost daily basis)
Quote:
Some will say "buff assault". I would say a huge NO to that. For the sole reason that NO medium infantry should ever be able to reach 1000 HP. I've heard (and seen) logi running SHOTGUNS with 700 EHP and sprinting around 8.5/9 m/s. Armor Logis tapping almost 1K.
Buff Assault is indeed the answer, but not their tank, they should have proper support for their slayer roles via gank. There are Assault fits right now which can push over that 700 hp and still move faster than my Logi fit which has lower HP than they do. Besides which the Advanced heavy frame gets ~800 hp before fittings and with the costs normalized via meta now that ISK savings is non-trivial.
sic
=> Less Hi\Lo slots ? That's what i believe in the most. If a proto assault has 7 mod slots and 1 eqpt. How can a logistic get 8 mod slots and 4 equipments ? Doesn't 5 makes more sense ?[/quote]
There's a point where you just need to open your eyes and admit that yeah, something is wrong. And at the moment, logis are very wrong. Actually, it isnt new as VK1 logistic was already a better assault than any assault suit in Chromosome (i should dig up those old messages of mine... )[/quote]
Define "better Assault" and why, there comes a time when you just have to provide a breakdown with fittings and context or your statements become hyperbole.
Logi v Assault slots gap by race (keeping in mind that sidearm is a slot)
- Caldari Logi has 1 more
- Amarr Logi has 0 more
- Minmatar Logi has 1 more
- Gallente Logi has 0 more
So far all the "Assault" Logi fits I've seen use only one Equipment filled with Hives and have no slack to speak of on CPU/PG so the Equp slots aren't playing a role when comparing the slayer values of the two frames.
While I don't think either your position or conclusions are correct I'm always open to new information and conversation so I hope you'll respond to the questions/content above and provide fits/details regarding your point of view.
A quick side note: I've no idea why the second Equp slot was removed from proto level Assault suits, aside from maybe CCPs numbers showing it was generally unused, but I'd readily support it's restoration.
Cheers,
Cross |