DUST Search - Oh please no, not another post on HMGs

CLONE117 wrote:

increasing rof increases effectiveness at close range combat I see the hmg being designed as a suppression weapon.

although since the hmg takes on the form of a gatling gun or minigun hmg damage per hit could be reduced with a slight increase in rof to keep other players on there toes no1 wants to meet face to face with a heavy using an hmg.

I see them as being designed for infantry suppression with the ability to take on lavs.

the main reason the hmg seems so effective in combat is because a slow moving heavily armored player is carrying the gun if u saw some1 in an assault dropsuit with this weapon they would not survive.

armor is one of the main factors that determines a heavies effectiveness with the hmg. that and whether he was several damage mods attached to the gun...

the hmg/minigun is a weapon designed to suppress infantry it shouldn't need accuracy. only the ability to suppress a large area with a barrage of bullets.

a higher rof only means that heavies can kill faster in cqc.

of course ive never used hmg so I can only go off of how I went up against them..

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Mark The Red Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.05.10 01:37:00 - [1] - Quote Yes yes I know, another one of those threads. More complaints of the HMG and how it's been 'broken' by CCP. Let's put aside the stereotypical complaints. Yes, I enjoy playing the heavy. Yes, a buff on the HMG would give me an advantage. But that's the thing. I'm not really asking for a buff. Fake gasps, followed by heated mutters. There are only four 'buffs' that effect a weapon in a strictly positive sense. A, ammo capacity/magzazine increase B, damage increase C, recoil reduction D, hardcap increase What I'm suggesting is the HMG receive a 30-50% increase in RoF Ha! I caught you! That's a buff! Liar! Deceiver! it is, and it isn't. It increase the damage output per second. But you're not actually increasing its Damage Threshold. Damage who-zuh-whatsit? Damage threshold. See, when (legitimate) concerns are brought up of a weapon being 'op', what they're really afraid of is the weapon being able to wipe out large numbers of competitors (in the most extreme cases, an entire enemy team). For example, let's say the HMG did 10 damage per round. It fires at 3000 rounds per minute (hypothetically). Technically, that's 30,000 damage dealt per minute (or 500 per second). Enough to wipe out every enemy on the field, regardless of class or health. To stop the slaughter spree, ammo limits, reloads, and in the case of HMGs, overheating break the guns damage into smaller and smaller 'chunks', thus keeping the gun in line while not effecting its play by play performance. Still following the example, let's say the gun every ten seconds needs a 5 second cooldown. Then, once every five or so cooldowns, it needs to reload (ten seconds). This makes the weapon less likely to wipe out a team, whlie not restricting its ability to take out targets one by one. One of the problems I'm noticing when addressing the HMG as being overpowered is that people are afraid of it wiping out entire teams before needing to pause. By increasing RoF, your'e increasing the damage output, but since the increased rate of fire speeds up the process of overheating and reloading, the damage threshold itself remains exactly the same. An example. Let's say we kept the HMG base damage the same, but we increase the rate of fire to 5000. Now the weapon is doing 50,000 damage per minute (roughly 820 damage per second). Its ability to kill single targets has increased, but since the RoF has increased, so does the time between reloads and cooldowns. You've effectively kept the gun within the same threshold while making it far more lethal in direct encounters. [i][Consequences of a heightened Rate of Fire/i] Positives -Higher damage per second -Increase efficiency at closer range (giving it an edge on assault rifles) -Making it a more effective 'suppression' weapon (more rounds, better suppression) -Increased reliance on logies for ammo Negatives -Increased heat buildup -More frequent reloads -Decreased accuracy at further range What you have, basically, is the 'kick in the door gun' that the heavies are begging for, more 'suppression' like the Devs are pushing, but less '30 meter kills' the assaults are complaining about. Leave a comment
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 75	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:22:00 - [2] - Quote Just tell me how a AR user can complain he got killed by a heavy at 30m when he can use a Dovulle giving him 110% effectiveness at 42 meters not counting the headshots at 165%. Not far enough, use the Tactical, you'll be hitting the guy at 100% effectiveness from 75m. at 30m with a boundless hmg, you can't even hit anyone hard enough to drop him unless he is already a badly hurt animal . How ironic is that...Boundless.... effective under 30 meters and even.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organisation 1	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:28:00 - [3] - Quote increasing rof increases effectiveness at close range combat I see the hmg being designed as a suppression weapon. although since the hmg takes on the form of a gatling gun or minigun hmg damage per hit could be reduced with a slight increase in rof to keep other players on there toes no1 wants to meet face to face with a heavy using an hmg. I see them as being designed for infantry suppression with the ability to take on lavs. the main reason the hmg seems so effective in combat is because a slow moving heavily armored player is carrying the gun if u saw some1 in an assault dropsuit with this weapon they would not survive. armor is one of the main factors that determines a heavies effectiveness with the hmg. that and whether he was several damage mods attached to the gun... the hmg/minigun is a weapon designed to suppress infantry it shouldn't need accuracy. only the ability to suppress a large area with a barrage of bullets. a higher rof only means that heavies can kill faster in cqc. of course ive never used hmg so I can only go off of how I went up against them..
Jammer Jalapeno BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 3	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:29:00 - [4] - Quote I agree, the HMG should be the driving force on the field. Heavy's are already slowed down by their suits and re-load times, they should at least have a decent weapon.
Mark The Red Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:31:00 - [5] - Quote martinofski wrote: Just tell me how a AR user can complain he got killed by a heavy at 30m when he can use a Dovulle giving him 110% effectiveness at 42 meters not counting the headshots at 165%. Not far enough, use the Tactical, you'll be hitting the guy at 100% effectiveness from 75m. at 30m with a boundless hmg, you can't even hit anyone hard enough to drop him unless he is already a badly hurt animal . How ironic is that...Boundless.... effective under 30 meters and even. That's another thing the developers haven't considered. When firing an assault rifle, your not gonna hit every round, but the bullets are gonna go in a straight line directly where the sights are. When firing an HMG, the bullets are spread out within the cone of fire. Unless the entire target is in your (very wide) targeting circle, you're not doing the effective damage listed on the gun. This is made effectively difficult by enemy strafing, distances farther than 10 meters (half or even third the developers assumptions). This usually results in something like half or even a third of the 'assumed' damage, making the assault rifle two or even three times higher when considering Damage per Second. Even if you have two or three times more health than an assault, you'll be dropped (in CQB) before the enemy is, dispite your increase in health. That being said, is it 'possible' to hit every round? Of course. If the target is standing perfectly still. But you can't assume stupidity on the assaulting opposition when considering damage and output. If two equally skill opponents of similar SP meet, would the machinegun win in close quarters? The answer is no. What you have with the current HMG is a gun that can get kills, but isn't producing the effectiveness it should be consistantly. 'Effective range' means how far the gun goes whlie still effectively deliverying damage, not now far the bullet can travel before dissapearing.
Mark The Red Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:39:00 - [6] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: increasing rof increases effectiveness at close range combat I see the hmg being designed as a suppression weapon. although since the hmg takes on the form of a gatling gun or minigun hmg damage per hit could be reduced with a slight increase in rof to keep other players on there toes no1 wants to meet face to face with a heavy using an hmg. I see them as being designed for infantry suppression with the ability to take on lavs. the main reason the hmg seems so effective in combat is because a slow moving heavily armored player is carrying the gun if u saw some1 in an assault dropsuit with this weapon they would not survive. armor is one of the main factors that determines a heavies effectiveness with the hmg. that and whether he was several damage mods attached to the gun... the hmg/minigun is a weapon designed to suppress infantry it shouldn't need accuracy. only the ability to suppress a large area with a barrage of bullets. a higher rof only means that heavies can kill faster in cqc. of course ive never used hmg so I can only go off of how I went up against them.. Thanks for the comment! The bullets of an HMG only go so far, and it delivers round per round the weakest damage in the game. 10-15 a piece. Consider a common connundrum; an assault behind cover. Even when not totally behind cover, you still have partial covering of the targets body. When you fire, your gun isn't hitting in the center of the reticle like most guns. HMGs disperse in a cone via a large reticle. So that means that while cover is only so effective against sniper rifles, assault rifles, etc that can hit even if only a small part of the body is showing, the HMG has its effectiveness reduced, regardless of 'how good a shot you are'. So now your gun, which is doing only 300 damage per second, is half because half your rounds don't hit (regardless of range), and half aren't hitting due to cover (because half of the reticle is covered), you're now doing, at max, 75 damage per second. 'Suppressing fire' is called so because the target isn't supposed to peak their head up in fear of damage. But if your'e not doing damage, than they're not suppressed, regardless of how many bullets are hitting that rock in front of them. Does it look cool? Sure. Would it work in real life? Absolutely. But in a game where you can take hundreds of bullets, being tagged on the shoulder a dozen times doesn't do anything. So really, what happens is they pop out from behind cover, you shoot them for 100-200 damage, and in that time, they deliver around 900 damage, effectively killing a team mate or even yourself. The increase in rate of fire would increase the overall damage, suppression or direct, which would make 'suppresing fire' a viable option, as opposed to what it is now, just window dressing.
Mark The Red Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:51:00 - [7] - Quote Jammer Jalapeno wrote: I agree, the HMG should be the driving force on the field. Heavy's are already slowed down by their suits and re-load times, they should at least have a decent weapon. Thanks for the comment miss Jalapeno! One of the problems driving the developers nerfing of the HMG is this idea that the HMG shoud be a more stationary role. A defense dog for objectives. But if we can't kill the target, than how are we to defend an objective? It really falls under assumptions made by the developers concerning the HMGs effectiveness. 1. Effective Range They've confused hard caps with the range in which a weapon is actually viable. They've failed to consider that, whlie a machinegun can reach 30 meters, that doesn't mean it's a viable option at said range. Just because my bullets can hit them, doesn't mean I can drop them before they get behind cover, leave my field of sight, or even return fire with a weapon that actually enjoys a range advantage. 2. The aiming reticle and 'scoping in' When you fire an assault rifle, sniper rifle, or anything of the like, your bullets are going exactly where they say they're going. Movement throws off your shots of course, and recoil makes your weapon ride up, but they're still going in a straight line. HMGs don't enjoy this benefit. We only hit what's in our large reticle. At anything farther than 5-10 feet, we will never have an entire red dot in our sites. If we don't land ever round from the HMG, our Damage per Second is reduced. This is why, even though teh weapon supposedly does 300 damage per second, it's doing far less. Our rounds simply aren't (and can't) hit in a realistic competitive environment, due to enemy strafing, distance, cover, and odd angles (such as around corners). 3. The idea of it as a 'suppression weapon' The idea is romantic; military termenology built into a game that simply doesn't support it (at this time). The theory of suppressing fire states that an enemy will refuse to shoot at you or ally, based on the assumption that, if he does, he'll be heavily injured or KIA. But in the game itself, it doesn't work that way. As stated before, the aiming reticle doesn't shoot in a straight line. Whatever your reticle says, that's what it hits if you hold the trigger, not hitting one particular point. At ten feet, you hit with (roughly) 50% of your rounds, once scoped in. If an opponent has 50% cover, that further reduces the amount of damage you put out. 300 halved is 150. 150 halfved is 75. At 75 damge per second, an assault can peak out, and within three seconds, pinpoint 900 worth of rounds, and duck behind cover. Enough to kill team mates or even the heavy itself, while only suffering 225 damage himself (a shields worth, in most cases). It's a great idea, but unless the gun actually threatens to deliver damage should the enemy attempt to take the shots, he's not gonna keep his head down.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 76	Posted - 2013.05.10 03:14:00 - [8] - Quote Also note we start at 95% of efficiency, even when the gun touch the ennemy. Reducing even more the "true" output dps. Please, can you link your post the 30 pages heavy topic in general? Would be a great adition to it as it eplain pretty well why this gun need to be threated differently stats wise. Edit: we also lost the dmg bonus from our mandatory lvl 5 weaponry skill.
Mark The Red Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.05.10 03:29:00 - [9] - Quote martinofski wrote: Also note we start at 95% of efficiency, even when the gun touch the ennemy. Reducing even more the "true" output dps. Please, can you link your post the 30 pages heavy topic in general? Would be a great adition to it as it eplain pretty well why this gun need to be threated differently stats wise. Edit: we also lost the dmg bonus from our mandatory lvl 5 weaponry skill. Thank you sir! I tried to compile the listing to be as clear and simple as humanly possible. I may end up expanding the topic to include some of the issues involved with the reticle, aiming, and 'true dps'. I've tossed the link around the forums, but to keep it active and read, I need help from the readers! Post the link wherever appropriate, and keep this topic up where people can see it. I need not only readers to keep the topic open, but to add to what's already here, and spread by word of mouth the posts topic. Thanks for your comments! They're truly appreciated : )
Hot-Lips Houlihan 4077 MASH 0	Posted - 2013.05.10 18:54:00 - [10] - Quote Very solid and analytical points fellas, I really hope CCP will take this seriously. Without my HMG gunners, I've lost the will to heal. * tosses repair tool* It's just no fun being a logi anymore., oh yes and CCP will you also please fix that revive bug! I cannot begin to describe the frustrations of reviving.



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