DUST Search - How to fix the HAV problem

Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:

Aegis Scientiafide wrote:

Currently, HAVs are in a weird place right now where they're both very powerful yet overpriced isk-wise. There's no doubt that a tank is more powerful than infantry; in fact, come PC tanks as they are now will be a necessity to be competitive. The way they are now, tanks are a simple way to buy a clone advantage in any match-type (when was the last time you saw a dedicated tank driver get a negative kill spread?) Hell I predict PC will simply become a worse version of World of Tanks.

On the other hand, they're priced too highly. This game is geared towards specialization, and new players who wish to be tankers simply cannot afford to go this route. Given the nature of the game, the game should allow players to become full-time tank pilots. So how should CCP go about fixing this problem?

1) Balance them as if ISK doesn't exist; then, attach an appropriate isk cost.

It seems that right now CCP wants tanks to have a real presence on the battlefield as a major threat against infantry (since non-av weapons have barely any effect). As a restult, AV should be very effective against HAVs. A dedicated 3-man proto AV team should be able to absolutely devastate a full proto tank. This would allow tanks to still be formidable in their intended purpose, while the existance of a hard counter allows them to be priced competitively. I'd say a fully fit proto tank should cost a little more than 3 fully fit proto infantry units (slightly more due to the fact that losing a tank does not necessarily mean losing clones as you can bail from a burning tank).

2) Give easier access to AV equipment on the battlefield

This point seems to be completely ignored right now. One of the main problems in the game when dealing with tanks is the fact that a tank can spawn in, and those that are currently alive can't do anything about it. Not every map has a supply depot, and skirmish maps are quite large.

The solution would be to place 2 supply depots on every ambush map, and to allow every captured objective on skirmish to act as a supply depot.

Ad 1.
CCP made some tweaks at Vehicles modules price in this build, proto modules stand where the were but meta 1-2 is cheaper. Very big improvement is option to recall your vehicle, now you don't have to risk losing very expensive vehicle you always can call it back(even at the middle of ****).
I agree that proto HAV(itself without modules) is expensive piece of equipment, but I think that this specific vehicle should be cover by corporations wallet.
We could cut a little price of full fit by removing turrets - extra CPU/PG would allow to fit different fit's..
I think that separating skills for Pilots and Infantry forced Pilots to work in more tightened groups, now if you lose a HAV you can ask you buddy to be a gunner for him for next 2-3 random-skirmish, and he will be happy because Infantry guys usually doesn't have skills in what-to-do-now scenario and for example can blow up you cover by shooting target beyond their range. What I really, really would like to see is Pilot suit, but I'm looking at it realistically, and I know it's not gonna happen very soon.

Ad 2.
a) Infantry can always have AV grenades and proximity explosive no matter do the HAV is present on battlefield or not, it doesn't take much effort to spend 1 equipment slot if you have them 4. And if everyone in team have AV grenade, HAV can forget about killing any one.
b) I'm destroying or ask someone to destroy all supply depot before deploying my HAV, it is safer this way for me, beside today everyone can deploy to battle HAV just to recall it 5 seconds later - it may look stupid, but it is good distraction for enemy team.

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Aegis Scientiafide Planetary Response Organisation 15	Posted - 2013.05.09 20:59:00 - [1] - Quote Currently, HAVs are in a weird place right now where they're both very powerful yet overpriced isk-wise. There's no doubt that a tank is more powerful than infantry; in fact, come PC tanks as they are now will be a necessity to be competitive. The way they are now, tanks are a simple way to buy a clone advantage in any match-type (when was the last time you saw a dedicated tank driver get a negative kill spread?) Hell I predict PC will simply become a worse version of World of Tanks. On the other hand, they're priced too highly. This game is geared towards specialization, and new players who wish to be tankers simply cannot afford to go this route. Given the nature of the game, the game should allow players to become full-time tank pilots. So how should CCP go about fixing this problem? 1) Balance them as if ISK doesn't exist; then, attach an appropriate isk cost. It seems that right now CCP wants tanks to have a real presence on the battlefield as a major threat against infantry (since non-av weapons have barely any effect). As a restult, AV should be very effective against HAVs. A dedicated 3-man proto AV team should be able to absolutely devastate a full proto tank. This would allow tanks to still be formidable in their intended purpose, while the existance of a hard counter allows them to be priced competitively. I'd say a fully fit proto tank should cost a little more than 3 fully fit proto infantry units (slightly more due to the fact that losing a tank does not necessarily mean losing clones as you can bail from a burning tank). 2) Give easier access to AV equipment on the battlefield This point seems to be completely ignored right now. One of the main problems in the game when dealing with tanks is the fact that a tank can spawn in, and those that are currently alive can't do anything about it. Not every map has a supply depot, and skirmish maps are quite large. The solution would be to place 2 supply depots on every ambush map, and to allow every captured objective on skirmish to act as a supply depot.
sly Bandit OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 0	Posted - 2013.05.10 22:35:00 - [2] - Quote You were doing good until you said bail out of your tank. A truly dedicated tank driver goes down with his/her tank like a captain goes down with his/her ship.
Sheena Arn Dark Firebird TF 2	Posted - 2013.05.10 23:05:00 - [3] - Quote Quote: 2) Give easier access to AV equipment on the battlefield This point seems to be completely ignored right now. One of the main problems in the game when dealing with tanks is the fact that a tank can spawn in, and those that are currently alive can't do anything about it. Not every map has a supply depot, and skirmish maps are quite large. The solution would be to place 2 supply depots on every ambush map, and to allow every captured objective on skirmish to act as a supply depot. I agree at the moment, but I think that flaylock pistols will balance it, as most assaults will start carrying an AV sidearm (unless I am very confused as to the purpose of flaylock pistols). Also, unless they've changed plans, long term we'll be able to call in drops of supply depots and guns.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organisation 2	Posted - 2013.05.10 23:36:00 - [4] - Quote y not just make an artillery vehicle? although the big threat with tanks is the higher leveled tanks. they r too powerful from my point of view u never really see militia or std tanks u mainly only see proto and adv tanks that have the abillity to snipe players...
Sylwester Dziewiecki BetaMax. CRONOS. 60	Posted - 2013.05.11 00:08:00 - [5] - Quote Aegis Scientiafide wrote: Currently, HAVs are in a weird place right now where they're both very powerful yet overpriced isk-wise. There's no doubt that a tank is more powerful than infantry; in fact, come PC tanks as they are now will be a necessity to be competitive. The way they are now, tanks are a simple way to buy a clone advantage in any match-type (when was the last time you saw a dedicated tank driver get a negative kill spread?) Hell I predict PC will simply become a worse version of World of Tanks. On the other hand, they're priced too highly. This game is geared towards specialization, and new players who wish to be tankers simply cannot afford to go this route. Given the nature of the game, the game should allow players to become full-time tank pilots. So how should CCP go about fixing this problem? 1) Balance them as if ISK doesn't exist; then, attach an appropriate isk cost. It seems that right now CCP wants tanks to have a real presence on the battlefield as a major threat against infantry (since non-av weapons have barely any effect). As a restult, AV should be very effective against HAVs. A dedicated 3-man proto AV team should be able to absolutely devastate a full proto tank. This would allow tanks to still be formidable in their intended purpose, while the existance of a hard counter allows them to be priced competitively. I'd say a fully fit proto tank should cost a little more than 3 fully fit proto infantry units (slightly more due to the fact that losing a tank does not necessarily mean losing clones as you can bail from a burning tank). 2) Give easier access to AV equipment on the battlefield This point seems to be completely ignored right now. One of the main problems in the game when dealing with tanks is the fact that a tank can spawn in, and those that are currently alive can't do anything about it. Not every map has a supply depot, and skirmish maps are quite large. The solution would be to place 2 supply depots on every ambush map, and to allow every captured objective on skirmish to act as a supply depot. Ad 1. CCP made some tweaks at Vehicles modules price in this build, proto modules stand where the were but meta 1-2 is cheaper. Very big improvement is option to recall your vehicle, now you don't have to risk losing very expensive vehicle you always can call it back(even at the middle of ****). I agree that proto HAV(itself without modules) is expensive piece of equipment, but I think that this specific vehicle should be cover by corporations wallet. We could cut a little price of full fit by removing turrets - extra CPU/PG would allow to fit different fit's.. I think that separating skills for Pilots and Infantry forced Pilots to work in more tightened groups, now if you lose a HAV you can ask you buddy to be a gunner for him for next 2-3 random-skirmish, and he will be happy because Infantry guys usually doesn't have skills in what-to-do-now scenario and for example can blow up you cover by shooting target beyond their range. What I really, really would like to see is Pilot suit, but I'm looking at it realistically, and I know it's not gonna happen very soon. Ad 2. a) Infantry can always have AV grenades and proximity explosive no matter do the HAV is present on battlefield or not, it doesn't take much effort to spend 1 equipment slot if you have them 4. And if everyone in team have AV grenade, HAV can forget about killing any one. b) I'm destroying or ask someone to destroy all supply depot before deploying my HAV, it is safer this way for me, beside today everyone can deploy to battle HAV just to recall it 5 seconds later - it may look stupid, but it is good distraction for enemy team.
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 0	Posted - 2013.05.11 00:16:00 - [6] - Quote ppl aalready have enough access to av... EX-0 av grenades can destroy tanks way too easy for their price and skill reqs..... if they wanna balance it either tanks need to be cheaper or AV needs to be more expencive to have some risk for going after a tank since a tank is already risking alot going into the range of AV....
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organisation 2	Posted - 2013.05.11 00:45:00 - [7] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Aegis Scientiafide wrote: Currently, HAVs are in a weird place right now where they're both very powerful yet overpriced isk-wise. There's no doubt that a tank is more powerful than infantry; in fact, come PC tanks as they are now will be a necessity to be competitive. The way they are now, tanks are a simple way to buy a clone advantage in any match-type (when was the last time you saw a dedicated tank driver get a negative kill spread?) Hell I predict PC will simply become a worse version of World of Tanks. On the other hand, they're priced too highly. This game is geared towards specialization, and new players who wish to be tankers simply cannot afford to go this route. Given the nature of the game, the game should allow players to become full-time tank pilots. So how should CCP go about fixing this problem? 1) Balance them as if ISK doesn't exist; then, attach an appropriate isk cost. It seems that right now CCP wants tanks to have a real presence on the battlefield as a major threat against infantry (since non-av weapons have barely any effect). As a restult, AV should be very effective against HAVs. A dedicated 3-man proto AV team should be able to absolutely devastate a full proto tank. This would allow tanks to still be formidable in their intended purpose, while the existance of a hard counter allows them to be priced competitively. I'd say a fully fit proto tank should cost a little more than 3 fully fit proto infantry units (slightly more due to the fact that losing a tank does not necessarily mean losing clones as you can bail from a burning tank). 2) Give easier access to AV equipment on the battlefield This point seems to be completely ignored right now. One of the main problems in the game when dealing with tanks is the fact that a tank can spawn in, and those that are currently alive can't do anything about it. Not every map has a supply depot, and skirmish maps are quite large. The solution would be to place 2 supply depots on every ambush map, and to allow every captured objective on skirmish to act as a supply depot. Ad 1. CCP made some tweaks at Vehicles modules price in this build, proto modules stand where the were but meta 1-2 is cheaper. Very big improvement is option to recall your vehicle, now you don't have to risk losing very expensive vehicle you always can call it back(even at the middle of ****). I agree that proto HAV(itself without modules) is expensive piece of equipment, but I think that this specific vehicle should be cover by corporations wallet. We could cut a little price of full fit by removing turrets - extra CPU/PG would allow to fit different fit's.. I think that separating skills for Pilots and Infantry forced Pilots to work in more tightened groups, now if you lose a HAV you can ask you buddy to be a gunner for him for next 2-3 random-skirmish, and he will be happy because Infantry guys usually doesn't have skills in what-to-do-now scenario and for example can blow up you cover by shooting target beyond their range. What I really, really would like to see is Pilot suit, but I'm looking at it realistically, and I know it's not gonna happen very soon. Ad 2. a) Infantry can always have AV grenades and proximity explosive no matter do the HAV is present on battlefield or not, it doesn't take much effort to spend 1 equipment slot if you have them 4. And if everyone in team have AV grenade, HAV can forget about killing any one. b) I'm destroying or ask someone to destroy all supply depot before deploying my HAV, it is safer this way for me, beside today everyone can deploy to battle HAV just to recall it 5 seconds later - it may look stupid, but it is good distraction for enemy team. u sick devious person! ur the reason im always running out of AMMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organisation 2	Posted - 2013.05.11 00:47:00 - [8] - Quote Tankin Tarkus wrote: ppl aalready have enough access to av... EX-0 av grenades can destroy tanks way too easy for their price and skill reqs..... if they wanna balance it either tanks need to be cheaper or AV needs to be more expencive to have some risk for going after a tank since a tank is already risking alot going into the range of AV.... av is only effectice when several players switch to that class and not many do most players try to aviod the tank as much as possible since any who pulls out a swarm to deal with a tank isnt going to be effective and if the whole team pitches in they r going to get slaughter by any with a actual weapon...
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 0	Posted - 2013.05.11 01:32:00 - [9] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: Tankin Tarkus wrote: ppl aalready have enough access to av... EX-0 av grenades can destroy tanks way too easy for their price and skill reqs..... if they wanna balance it either tanks need to be cheaper or AV needs to be more expencive to have some risk for going after a tank since a tank is already risking alot going into the range of AV.... av is only effectice when several players switch to that class and not many do most players try to aviod the tank as much as possible since any who pulls out a swarm to deal with a tank isnt going to be effective and if the whole team pitches in they r going to get slaughter by any with a actual weapon... every time i bring out a tank theres a whole squad worth or ppl with atleast AV grenades and the grenade users are the worst they use a 2k isk AV grenade that can take out a tank in 3 grenades.... guess how many AV grenades a single player can carry without a nanohive.... 3 they are dirt cheap take no sp and can do so much damage to armor tanks its not even funny and if they have nanohives they can just keep chucking them
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organisation 2	Posted - 2013.05.11 01:54:00 - [10] - Quote i do agree about av grenades they i think they should be half or 1/4 as effective against vehicles i beleive the swarm should get a damage increase mostly talking milita swarm as it doesnt really do much the only effective way to be av is to skill into and doing that makes u ineffectice at standard combat.. plus grenades should not be able to home in on vehicles they players should be forced to throw them directly at the vehicle...

Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 0	Posted - 2013.05.11 02:11:00 - [11] - Quote 1/4 damage would be far too much of a nerf it would turn it from an AV grenade to a locus grenade that homes in on tanks and cant do anything to infantry half damage wouldnt be as bad say 800 damage for a standard up to 1200 for a proto at 1200 damage grenade to say a decent madrugar (say about 6000 armor and 46% damage reduction from 2 hardeners) the grenade would do aprox 1k damage a grenade(explosives do 30% more damage to armor) so a single player could do 3k damage total to a tank. 2 players would be able to destroy the tank if it was caught off guard(an extra player with the grenades would be able to counter the repper if the tank activated it in time) like this grenades would still pose a decent threat but wouldnt be OP theyd work well as area denial against tanks
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organisation 4	Posted - 2013.05.11 02:42:00 - [12] - Quote i wonder how this would effect lavs since they r 1 hit by avs. if the av grenade didnt home in on the vehicle but instead had to be thrown directly at the vehicle lav would end up playing a bigger role in infantry support instead of rolling around map waiting for a swarm to blow the vehicle up.....
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 1	Posted - 2013.05.11 02:59:00 - [13] - Quote free LAV's should always be easy to destroy but with what i mentioned AV grenades would take 2-3 to destroy a decent LAV not entirely sure what a decent LAV can pull off shield/armor/damage resist wise
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 161	Posted - 2013.05.11 11:38:00 - [14] - Quote I have ran heavy for 3 builds and now run nothing but tanks . Av is still op and most of tge good av players I know have great gun game and can allways pull a possitive k/d with their sidearms so using the excuse that av specialists are no use in anti infantry combat is just lame . Either specialise in av and run with your squad or just stay out of my way and I cant kill you plain and simple. I have never seen a good av player on hear moaning about not being able to kill tanks simply because they have specilised and traind in their role . Example- django quick is an excelent swarm opperative (also deadly with a scrambler pistol and smg) and when I see him on the other team I know that iv got to have my witts about me or I will loose my tank and thats just 1 good av specialist and if theres 2 or 3 of them then well I probably will lose my tank. I have seen django wast many tanks and other veichles but also maintain his gun game so as I said claiming that swarm operatives have no gun game against infantry is just lame .


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