DUST Search - Planetary Conquest games should end when last clone dies, not when the clone cou...

Arramakaian Eka wrote:

Aighun wrote:

Thor Odinson42 wrote:

With a big map and cloaking in the future this scenario could lead to some long wait times in an ambush.

That is why all planetary conquest battles are skirmish There is a built in timer because the MCC will eventually explode for one side or the other.

I agree 100% with OP. FIght to the last standing clone.

Seems like you can still do this in the game as is though. Clone count does not tick over unless someone re-spawns. Have seen a few pub matches where the clone count was sitting at zero for one team and five for the other team and the team at zero won with a last second Orbital bombardment. Of course, some clarification from devs would be appreciated.

So all we might have to do if we are in corporations in planetary conquest is when the clone count goes below around 16 is start calling our "no respawn" or figure out who gets the chance to go back in if the fight is close.

Ok, this is an important un-advertised feature. So this essentially means that the clone counter can be zero for an indefinite time, but if it ticks to negative, it ends the game?

If that's the case, then it is up to the underdog corp to decide what to do:

If enemy MCC counter is high, order "no more spawns" and fight until last man dies in the hopes of getting the enemy's clone counter to zero, thus resulting in a last man standing fight
In cases where enemy MCC is about to blow up but your clones are running low, again, order "no more spawns" at zero clone counter (or even earlier to save clones!), hide, and drag the fight until enemy MCC blows
Allow spawning, thus ending the game, in a de facto forfeit

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Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2013.05.01 11:48:00 - [1] - Quote Will Planetary Conquest games end when the last clone of the losing side dies? This as opposed to when the clone counter goes to zero as it is currently in Ambush and Skirmish. When the last clone dies would also make sense in the game world, as there are mercs standing on both sides when the counter goes to zero. Mercs are getting paid for victory, so they have no reason to stop killing just because some counter went to zero. I remember from many other FPSs without respawning, that some of the most thrilling games were when I was the last one up against 2-5 others, and clawed myself into a victory for my team. It's even better when you have your entire team on comms cheering the last men standing, which will enhance immersion and corp cohesiveness. Yes, you could redline and drag the game for a bit longer. But that's a small price to pay for the thrills of trying to win a game as an underdog. There is a solution to that already in place: MCC getting destroyed. And let's not forget such tactics in PC would be a source of ridicule among corps and alliances.
Smooth Head Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2013.05.01 11:51:00 - [2] - Quote Game design is not CCP's strong suite I'm afraid. It's all about the future apparently. One in which obvious things elude CCP.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 421	Posted - 2013.05.01 11:59:00 - [3] - Quote Smooth Head wrote: Game design is not CCP's strong suite I'm afraid. It's all about the future apparently. One in which obvious things elude CCP. They have zero experience with FPSs, so I have given them some slack during beta - but we're launching soon and such blatant oversight of such an obvious game design flaw will not be looked at kindly in reviews and by FPS gamers. Fortunately CCP has a good chance and reason to fix this issue with PC, and should even have time to do that before the 14th. I consider it a bug the way Skirmish ends when clone counter reaches zero, or at least bad game design, for the same reasons as I listed in the OP. It kinda makes sense in TDM (Ambush), as much as TDM makes sense in Dust.
Thor Odinson42 Planetary Response Organization 104	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:02:00 - [4] - Quote With a big map and cloaking in the future this scenario could lead to some long wait times in an ambush.
Snaps Tremor The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 127	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:04:00 - [5] - Quote In a game where people are going to use every tool at their disposal to ensure victory, it doesn't take much thought to see why last man standing is a terrible idea for the current game modes. This isn't a dual-lane killbox like Counterstrike or Call of Duty, it's an open map that's only going to get bigger. Scouring the map for a profile-tanked scout crouching in a bin somewhere is much more likely than the dramatic showdown you're imagining, and is a waste of everyone's time. Re: the second post, sometimes you have take a couple of times to connect the dots and see why CCP have chosen the things they have, rather than just assuming that you, the best game designer to ever grace an internet game forum, has seen through the fog to the truth that eludes the devs.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 288	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:05:00 - [6] - Quote Yea but think about the corporate world. I have a job where I can work all the overtime I feel like and get paid for it. But alot of places don't pay overtime. Why would you agree to take $1,000,000 for fifteen minutes and then work thirty? Forget that, I'm a merc, give me my money and I'm out. Anyone who wants me to pull overtime had better pay or they get the finger and then a bullet.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 241	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:05:00 - [7] - Quote I have seen this suggested before ... a long time ago. I agree it should be the same in all batles to be honest, when the counter reaches zero there are no more clones to spawn in with, but those left fighting should be left to fight to the death. The problem in pub matches is that people doing well but let down by their random drawn team are then forced to lose assets before the match will end. Adding in a 'last man standing' timer could make it work for pub matches too, but I agree contracted corp battles and PC etc, anything with none random teams should be a last man standing win rather than a death toll ticker ending the match.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 421	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:06:00 - [8] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: With a big map and cloaking in the future this scenario could lead to some long wait times in an ambush. Already covered in OP, and even the subject line specifies this is for PC.
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 250	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:08:00 - [9] - Quote You really don't see the massive glaringly obvious problem with this? Hint, CCP have publicly said that this is the reason why they won't do this.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 421	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:09:00 - [10] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: You really don't see the massive glaringly obvious problem with this? Hint, CCP have publicly said that this is the reason why they won't do this. Obvious to you, not to me. It works in many games. Please enlighten me with your excellence.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3763	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:25:00 - [11] - Quote Yes matches end if you kill off the last clone. Its how the territory flips in the first place, sheesh. Matches however can get ended earlier if you take out the MCC which deducts 150 clones minimal from the reserves of the losing side.
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 250	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:34:00 - [12] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: Ryder Azorria wrote: You really don't see the massive glaringly obvious problem with this? Hint, CCP have publicly said that this is the reason why they won't do this. Obvious to you, not to me. It works in many games. Please enlighten me with your excellence. Never ending games, or rather games where the winning team has to spend ages running down the clock because there's one last person afking in the MCC or hiding in some rocks behind the redline. A scenario which would happen pretty much every time one team redlines the other - which is unfortunate because it would be pretty epic for the rare, very close matches.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 421	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:36:00 - [13] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Yes matches end if you kill off the last clone. Its how the territory flips in the first place, sheesh. Matches however can get ended earlier if you take out the MCC which deducts 150 clones minimal from the reserves of the losing side. So do you confirm that the match ends when the last clone is killed, NOT when the clone counter reaches zero? For clarity, that would make it different from the way Skirmish is currently implemented.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 422	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:40:00 - [14] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: Arramakaian Eka wrote: Ryder Azorria wrote: You really don't see the massive glaringly obvious problem with this? Hint, CCP have publicly said that this is the reason why they won't do this. Obvious to you, not to me. It works in many games. Please enlighten me with your excellence. Never ending games, or rather games where the winning team has to spend ages running down the clock because there's one last person afking in the MCC or hiding in some rocks behind the redline. A scenario which would happen pretty much every time one team redlines the other - which is unfortunate because it would be pretty epic for the rare, very close matches. Already covered, and already fixed by CCP: MCC counter is a secondary counter. Once again, this is for PC, there will not be AFKing, and people or corps who hide will be ridiculed and shunned. Yes, you could still drag the game by hiding until the MCC counter reaches zero. But that's a small price to pay for those thrills people get from winning the game as an underdog. It would be epic, I know from experience. There is no better adrenaline rush in gaming than going 1v3 and picking them off one by one, and winning. This is the kind of heroic stuff which gets reported on Dust news and lore blogs, talked about for years, even outside of Dust and EVE.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3763	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:42:00 - [15] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Yes matches end if you kill off the last clone. Its how the territory flips in the first place, sheesh. Matches however can get ended earlier if you take out the MCC which deducts 150 clones minimal from the reserves of the losing side. So do you confirm that the match ends when the last clone is killed, NOT when the clone counter reaches zero? For clarity, that would make it different from the way Skirmish is currently implemented. I am confirming that killing the last clone involves getting the clone counter hitting zero. If I have only 54 clones on the territory and the battle loads my clone count is at 54 and when the enemy kills the last 54 the match ends and territory flips. The clone counters are whatever clones either side has so 450 or 300 or less. Even if your team are total idiots you can lose a district in one fight. Even if it was stocked with multiple hundred clones. I mean if zitro can go 71 and 0 why cant the rest of his team do so?
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 784	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:45:00 - [16] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: With a big map and cloaking in the future this scenario could lead to some long wait times in an ambush. That is why all planetary conquest battles are skirmish There is a built in timer because the MCC will eventually explode for one side or the other. I agree 100% with OP. FIght to the last standing clone. Seems like you can still do this in the game as is though. Clone count does not tick over unless someone re-spawns. Have seen a few pub matches where the clone count was sitting at zero for one team and five for the other team and the team at zero won with a last second Orbital bombardment. Of course, some clarification from devs would be appreciated. So all we might have to do if we are in corporations in planetary conquest is when the clone count goes below around 16 is start calling our "no respawn" or figure out who gets the chance to go back in if the fight is close.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 422	Posted - 2013.05.01 12:55:00 - [17] - Quote Aighun wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: With a big map and cloaking in the future this scenario could lead to some long wait times in an ambush. That is why all planetary conquest battles are skirmish There is a built in timer because the MCC will eventually explode for one side or the other. I agree 100% with OP. FIght to the last standing clone. Seems like you can still do this in the game as is though. Clone count does not tick over unless someone re-spawns. Have seen a few pub matches where the clone count was sitting at zero for one team and five for the other team and the team at zero won with a last second Orbital bombardment. Of course, some clarification from devs would be appreciated. So all we might have to do if we are in corporations in planetary conquest is when the clone count goes below around 16 is start calling our "no respawn" or figure out who gets the chance to go back in if the fight is close. Ok, this is an important un-advertised feature. So this essentially means that the counter can be zero, but if it ticks to negative, it ends the game? If that's the case, then it is up to the underdog corp to decide what to do: If both MCC counters are high, order "no more spawns" and fight until last man dies in the hopes of getting the enemy's clone counter to zero, thus resulting in a last man standing fight In cases where enemy MCC is about to blow up but your clones are running low, again, order "no more spawns" at zero clone counter (or even earlier to save clones!), hide, and drag the fight until enemy MCC blows Allow spawning, thus ending the game, in a de facto forfeit
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 422	Posted - 2013.05.01 13:03:00 - [18] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Arramakaian Eka wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Yes matches end if you kill off the last clone. Its how the territory flips in the first place, sheesh. Matches however can get ended earlier if you take out the MCC which deducts 150 clones minimal from the reserves of the losing side. So do you confirm that the match ends when the last clone is killed, NOT when the clone counter reaches zero? For clarity, that would make it different from the way Skirmish is currently implemented. I am confirming that killing the last clone involves getting the clone counter hitting zero. If I have only 54 clones on the territory and the battle loads my clone count is at 54 and when the enemy kills the last 54 the match ends and territory flips. The clone counters are whatever clones either side has so 450 or 300 or less. Even if your team are total idiots you can lose a district in one fight. Even if it was stocked with multiple hundred clones. I mean if zitro can go 71 and 0 why cant the rest of his team do so? Clone counter and # of men standing are not necessarily the same. Clone counter counts # of clones spawned, not # of clones standing. If you have spawned 54 clones, you might still have clones standing although the counter is zero. Above post by Aighun suggests that the counter can be zero and the game will still continue, but if it goes negative - ie. someone tries to spawn when there are no more clones left - the game would end in defeat. That doesn't really make sense, but can be worked around as outlined in my previous post. If that's the case, great, but it is something that should be clarified by Devs, or at least confirmed by PC tests by players.
Treemugger I mug trees. 42	Posted - 2013.05.01 13:17:00 - [19] - Quote The optimist in me wants this so badly. The redline problem could be avoided by disabling the redline when the clone count reaches zero. It's to prevent spawn trapping, but no one's spawning, so why have it other than programming difficulties? On the other hand, games with sweet clutches are typically 6v6 corridor shooters. Someone taking down 6 players is rare but plausible, but taking down 16 or 24 in a game with little cover? That'd happen very, very, very rarely, if ever. A closer match could be clutched, granted, but from my experience... close matches aren't too common (at least in pubs). The other scenario happening - where they hide up in the hills and delay - could potentially happen every match.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 784	Posted - 2013.05.01 13:27:00 - [20] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: Aighun wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: With a big map and cloaking in the future this scenario could lead to some long wait times in an ambush. That is why all planetary conquest battles are skirmish There is a built in timer because the MCC will eventually explode for one side or the other. I agree 100% with OP. FIght to the last standing clone. Seems like you can still do this in the game as is though. Clone count does not tick over unless someone re-spawns. Have seen a few pub matches where the clone count was sitting at zero for one team and five for the other team and the team at zero won with a last second Orbital bombardment. Of course, some clarification from devs would be appreciated. So all we might have to do if we are in corporations in planetary conquest is when the clone count goes below around 16 is start calling our "no respawn" or figure out who gets the chance to go back in if the fight is close. Ok, this is an important un-advertised feature. So this essentially means that the clone counter can be zero for an indefinite time, but if it ticks to negative, it ends the game? If that's the case, then it is up to the underdog corp to decide what to do: If enemy MCC counter is high, order "no more spawns" and fight until last man dies in the hopes of getting the enemy's clone counter to zero, thus resulting in a last man standing fight In cases where enemy MCC is about to blow up but your clones are running low, again, order "no more spawns" at zero clone counter (or even earlier to save clones!), hide, and drag the fight until enemy MCC blows Allow spawning, thus ending the game, in a de facto forfeit Do you try to take at least one more enemy down with you? If your MCC has a few ticks more armor left but you are down to your last few clones do you just hide and hope you win by MCC destruction? But we really do need to know exactly how the clone counter works and the exact thing that causes a clone to be used. If a clone is used on re-spawn, fine. But it does seem strange that you get a set number of clones and that clones are one of the most important driving forces of Planetary conquest and you could still lose even if you have 10 still running around on the field. Edit* Also would like to see the redline removed for planetary conquest. Friendly fire will be on. TIme to fight without the safety net.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3771	Posted - 2013.05.01 13:32:00 - [21] - Quote I am pretty sure when we loaded up our test PC battle it had the clone numbers involving the number of clones brought from either side totally.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 426	Posted - 2013.05.01 19:10:00 - [22] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am pretty sure when we loaded up our test PC battle it had the clone numbers involving the number of clones brought from either side totally. Relevant?
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 241	Posted - 2013.05.02 08:16:00 - [23] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am pretty sure when we loaded up our test PC battle it had the clone numbers involving the number of clones brought from either side totally. Yes it's relevant ... But if I understand it, there's something not right. What you're saying is you start a battle with your 150 clones on the counter ... 16 players spawn in but no clones are used until one is lost through death without revive. So when we get down to zero on the counter there have been 150 deaths without revive but we still have our 16 clones on the field that we spawned in with at the beginning. Yes we're using all 150 clones but there's this 16 clone free spawn at the beginning which is then left over at the end, it doesn't make sense and is what's causing confusion. It would make more sense if your 150 clone count was depleted at first spawn ... you're taking a clone out of the vat bay and dropping it on the battlefield after all ... then when you got down to zero on the clone counter those still alive would be using one of your 150 clones and should remain till death and those who die are locked out of spawning with the no clones available message we already have. The ideas that cloaking and mcc n redline camping would be a problem ... these aren't a problem with clone couters ... these are problems with game mechanics not having a viable counter ... redline as suggested could be dropped at zero clone count, cloaking when introduced should have a viable counter (bumping for sure but I'd hope the scanner tool can detect cloaked stuff) otherwise cloaking would be OP anyway and mcc camping is countered by the mcc destruction. In summary the problem is with these apparently free clones you get to spawn in with at the beginning of a match.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2658	Posted - 2013.05.02 08:41:00 - [24] - Quote If you die and remain in bleed-out while the game is at 0 clones, it doesn't end the match. I've been waiting to bleed out, and a squadmate won the game with a 3-kill Grenade (no bleed-out timer). Nobody had time to try and spawn, but because they were insta-killed, they pulled from the clone counter without needing to try and spawn.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 426	Posted - 2013.05.02 08:44:00 - [25] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: It would make more sense if your 150 clone count was depleted at first spawn ... you're taking a clone out of the vat bay and dropping it on the battlefield after all ... then when you got down to zero on the clone counter those still alive would be using one of your 150 clones and should remain till death and those who die are locked out of spawning with the no clones available message we already have. Exactly. As it stands, it is the same as having a killchip in each clone's head which triggers when the clone counter reaches zero. Without the killchip we would be able to continue fighting until last man standing. This will require thorough testing come May 6.


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