DUST Search - Null cannon status during virus uploads

Beren Hurin wrote:

Mithridates VI wrote:

Beren Hurin did some solid testing on MCC and null cannon interaction and concluded that the cannon continues to fire. I think confirmation of this was actually watching a missile leave a contested cannon and strike the MCC ,dealing damage.

Yep, unless they changed it that 'minute' that the upload takes is roughly equivalent to around 1.1% of of an MCC's total HP. So if you let it upload, then you have to wait AT LEAST another minute to upload your own hack back. So if you are lazy, and don't hack, you are basically setting your team back 1 minute. So if you do this 2-3 times over a match, and the game comes down to the wire (on MCC HP), it was YOUR FAULT that you lost.

BTW, I made a stealth/hacker/remote mine fit this weekend and was able to farm about 1000 WP each match going 5/0 or so on 4 or 5 objective maps. Hacking based WP are extremely underestimated IMO. Don't think just in terms of objectives...Oh and one of these games we still one with a squad of AFKers.

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Chimeric Destiny Intara Direct Action Caldari State 47	Posted - 2013.04.22 23:37:00 - [1] - Quote Was curious during a virus upload does the null cannon continue firing on the enemy MCC? I ask because i understand CCP that the virus upload was to prevent continous reversal of objectives and spawns with no tangible need to clear the objective of the enemy.I was wondering rather than making it a virus upload that changes the status from one MCC to the other MCC why not make it so that after a successful hack the null cannon is disabled and the virus upload once complete reactivates the null cannon against the opposing team. This does a few things. It gives the team that successfully completed the hack a bit more breathing room for having just cleared the objective and getting a hack complete and reduces damage done to the MCC during that transition period. It also creates a need for the team that had control to dehack not only to regain use of the spawn but to continue damaging the enemy MCC with the cannon which currently if im correct will continue to the damage the MCC even during the virus upload stage and reduces urgency to dehack. Additionally it opens up secondary tactics of harassing null cannon terminals to get them offline even if its for a few seconds. Ive seen a lot of games where the match was decided by 1-2 bars on either side and turning off that null cannon even for just a few seconds instead of it continuing to do damage while you wait for the virus to upload. This or perhaps a skill/module that increase the rate of the virus upload (not the hacking skill which increase the rate of hacking).
Geth Massredux Defensores Doctrina 176	Posted - 2013.04.23 01:15:00 - [2] - Quote Chimeric Destiny wrote: This or perhaps a skill/module that increase the rate of the virus upload (not the hacking skill which increase the rate of hacking). Oh now thats just OP
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1292	Posted - 2013.04.23 01:54:00 - [3] - Quote Yes, they continue firing. I remember one battle where my team had either captured, or was uploading a virus onto every single NULL cannon. During that time, our MCC got destroyed, despite none of the cannons being completely red.
Mithridates VI DUST 411 937	Posted - 2013.04.23 01:58:00 - [4] - Quote I would like to see hacking iterated on but it would need to be balanced out. Example: Choose the virus you want to use; some viruses result in the null cannon firing less or not at all during the upload (depending on tier of virus upgrade). Some viruses result in faster virus upload with no impact on null cannon functionality. Others yet disable the null cannon for a period of time, letting these be strategically used when it seems an objective will be lost and there are other cannons to rely on. EDIT: Also, yes, they continue firing which is why I hate all the blueberries who wait around for the virus to upload before reclaiming the objective, giving a few extra WP and potentially costing us an MCC.
Chimeric Destiny Intara Direct Action Caldari State 47	Posted - 2013.04.23 01:58:00 - [5] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Yes, they continue firing. I remember one battle where my team had either captured, or was uploading a virus onto every single NULL cannon. During that time, our MCC got destroyed, despite none of the cannons being completely red. Sounds like you got screwed because the defense of the other team just held you off long enough. Seems a bit wrong doesn't your hard work finally pays off and you turn the tide of battle only to have it snatched away from you because it took to long to complete it. Don't you think it would have been more interesting a match if the other team had to actually get back on the counter offensive you already have the MCC's doing damage to each other so why not have this mechanism i think it makes for a better game what do you think?
Kaze Eyrou ROGUE SPADES EoN. 125	Posted - 2013.04.23 01:59:00 - [6] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Yes, they continue firing. I remember one battle where my team had either captured, or was uploading a virus onto every single NULL cannon. During that time, our MCC got destroyed, despite none of the cannons being completely red. But the MCC's are constantly shooting at each other too. Couldn't it have been that?
Mithridates VI DUST 411 937	Posted - 2013.04.23 02:00:00 - [7] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Yes, they continue firing. I remember one battle where my team had either captured, or was uploading a virus onto every single NULL cannon. During that time, our MCC got destroyed, despite none of the cannons being completely red. But the MCC's are constantly shooting at each other too. Couldn't it have been that? Beren Hurin did some solid testing on MCC and null cannon interaction and concluded that the cannon continues to fire. I think confirmation of this was actually watching a missile leave a contested cannon and strike the MCC ,dealing damage.
Chimeric Destiny Intara Direct Action Caldari State 47	Posted - 2013.04.23 02:05:00 - [8] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: I would like to see hacking iterated on but it would need to be balanced out. Example: Choose the virus you want to use; some viruses result in the null cannon firing less or not at all during the upload (depending on tier of virus upgrade). Some viruses result in faster virus upload with no impact on null cannon functionality. Others yet disable the null cannon for a period of time, letting these be strategically used when it seems an objective will be lost and there are other cannons to rely on. K.I.S.S. J/k its sounds good in theory but how much faster would the virus upload keep in mind that faster the upload the quicker a new spawn becomes available for your team and that can have gameplay impacts as well. I think the point was to prevent unending flipping of spawn points and martyrdom tactics. Also the virus that disable the null cannon for a set period of time would it be in the neutral state? meaning next person to hack it can spawn on it? Or do you keep control of the spawn point but its simply offline? If its offline then how do you know its offline as opposed to still firing (as some null cannons are simply out of view on the maps). ITs not a bad idea would need to be fleshed out some more. But i think my idea is simple enough that it can be changed with just a programming tweak(i hope, who knows for sure other than the devs). But its definitely worth exploring.
Mithridates VI DUST 411 937	Posted - 2013.04.23 02:16:00 - [9] - Quote ...It was a basic example of the type of change I'd like to see in a greater upgrade to the hacking mechanic. By "your idea" do you mean the new skill would be a simple programming tweak, or do you really think that disabling the cannon while it is contested has no gameplay impact?
Cody Sietz The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 80	Posted - 2013.04.23 02:35:00 - [10] - Quote There use to be a attack/defend style game mode where one side would try to disable the Null cannons and the other side would defend them.

Chimeric Destiny Intara Direct Action Caldari State 48	Posted - 2013.04.23 04:50:00 - [11] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: ...It was a basic example of the type of change I'd like to see in a greater upgrade to the hacking mechanic. By "your idea" do you mean the new skill would be a simple programming tweak, or do you really think that disabling the cannon while it is contested has no gameplay impact? EDIT: not to mention the fact that if the null cannon stopped firing during the virus upload there would be zero reason to hack it back during this time, seeing as you get WP for it if you wait. No. What i mean to say is that if this was a gameplay mechanic and not a skill based thing which was my other suggestion would most likely be a simple programming tweak. Adding in a new skill would indeed require new code. As to incentives. The incentives aren't there in pubs where ppl think 100 WP matters more than anything else. But in organized matches there is a true incentive to dehack objectives as they represent vital spawn points and because enemies are unrelenting and you aren't going to have the luxury of allowing the hack to go through and then rehack, not to mention the risk of potentailly allowing someone to spawn in on you who is cleverly waiting to spawn back in the match. Add to this for the individuals who got the hack off it gives them a few extra seconds where the null cannon isnt destroying their MCC. These seconds over the course of the match add up and translate to quite a few bars on the MCC and can be the vital difference in a match and far more important that the 100WP it generates. Looking at this match you can see how with the constant changing of the null cannons in a very intense mach how that could have made all the difference in the world. It promotes even greater need to protect defensively and add a bit more reward to a team that successfully breaks through a solid defense and gives a chance to turn the tide of battle without what basically amounts to a period of time that favors the previous owner of the objective despite having just lost it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CsSJ203WRr0
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 419	Posted - 2013.04.23 05:20:00 - [12] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: There use to be a attack/defend style game mode where one side would try to disable the Null cannons and the other side would defend them. More importantly, the MCC actually flew over the battlfield, the end goal was for the attacking team's MCC to "dock" at the defending teams "base". It was pretty epic watching the giant MCC hover menacingly over the battlefield, moving towards it's destination. The kicker was, the attacking team had to destroy the defending teams objectives (A and B) in order for the MCC to advance. I am pretty sure anyone who played that verson of Skirmish wants it back. I even miss the actual map it was played on. oh the memories.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 82	Posted - 2013.04.23 05:22:00 - [13] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: There use to be a attack/defend style game mode where one side would try to disable the Null cannons and the other side would defend them. More importantly, the MCC actually flew over the battlfield, the end goal was for the attacking team's MCC to "dock" at the defending teams "base". It was pretty epic watching the giant MCC hover menacingly over the battlefield, moving towards it's destination. The kicker was, the attacking team had to destroy the defending teams objectives (A and B) in order for the MCC to advance. I am pretty sure anyone who played that verson of Skirmish wants it back. I even miss the actual map it was played on. oh the memories. This... needs to happen again.
Sergamon Draco Darkstar Mercs 15	Posted - 2013.04.23 14:48:00 - [14] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Yes, they continue firing. I remember one battle where my team had either captured, or was uploading a virus onto every single NULL cannon. During that time, our MCC got destroyed, despite none of the cannons being completely red. You have to remember that mcc is firing too,its says null cannons make more damage to mcc
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 378	Posted - 2013.04.23 14:54:00 - [15] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Beren Hurin did some solid testing on MCC and null cannon interaction and concluded that the cannon continues to fire. I think confirmation of this was actually watching a missile leave a contested cannon and strike the MCC ,dealing damage. Yep, unless they changed it that 'minute' that the upload takes is roughly equivalent to around 1.1% of of an MCC's total HP. So if you let it upload, then you have to wait AT LEAST another minute to upload your own hack back. So if you are lazy, and don't hack, you are basically setting your team back 1 minute. So if you do this 2-3 times over a match, and the game comes down to the wire (on MCC HP), it was YOUR FAULT that you lost. BTW, I made a stealth/hacker/remote mine fit this weekend and was able to farm about 1000 WP each match going 5/0 or so on 4 or 5 objective maps. Hacking based WP are extremely underestimated IMO. Don't think just in terms of objectives...
Cody Sietz The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 82	Posted - 2013.04.23 15:32:00 - [16] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Orin the Freak wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: There use to be a attack/defend style game mode where one side would try to disable the Null cannons and the other side would defend them. More importantly, the MCC actually flew over the battlfield, the end goal was for the attacking team's MCC to "dock" at the defending teams "base". It was pretty epic watching the giant MCC hover menacingly over the battlefield, moving towards it's destination. The kicker was, the attacking team had to destroy the defending teams objectives (A and B) in order for the MCC to advance. I am pretty sure anyone who played that verson of Skirmish wants it back. I even miss the actual map it was played on. oh the memories. This... needs to happen again. agreed. I miss being able to DMG the MCC with rail guns and missile turrets as well.
Chimeric Destiny Intara Direct Action Caldari State 48	Posted - 2013.04.23 18:28:00 - [17] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Beren Hurin did some solid testing on MCC and null cannon interaction and concluded that the cannon continues to fire. I think confirmation of this was actually watching a missile leave a contested cannon and strike the MCC ,dealing damage. Yep, unless they changed it that 'minute' that the upload takes is roughly equivalent to around 1.1% of of an MCC's total HP. So if you let it upload, then you have to wait AT LEAST another minute to upload your own hack back. So if you are lazy, and don't hack, you are basically setting your team back 1 minute. So if you do this 2-3 times over a match, and the game comes down to the wire (on MCC HP), it was YOUR FAULT that you lost. BTW, I made a stealth/hacker/remote mine fit this weekend and was able to farm about 1000 WP each match going 5/0 or so on 4 or 5 objective maps. Hacking based WP are extremely underestimated IMO. Don't think just in terms of objectives...Oh and one of these games we still one with a squad of AFKers. Yea im referring to more the game coming down to the wire when a team that essentially was only in control less than the majority of objective and thus losing having in effect a hidden clock working against them. A team that successfully overcomes an entrenched teams defenses and manages to get a hack is not being reward by getting relief on the damage being done to their MCC. Yes granted they took away a spawn but given the incredibly close nature of spawn points and use of uplinks this is not that big a punishment to the team that lost control of the objective or reward to the team that just took control of it. They still have to wait for them to be able to make use of its spawn and for it to do damage. My point is watching the PFB vs Hellstorm fight and other matches that i imagine are equally tight that simple difference of the null cannon ceasing to do damage for even a brief period of time can be all the difference between victory and defeat. As it is now its just a rat race to see who can get a hold of 2 objective in a 3 objective mode or 3-4 objectives in a 5 objective mode and simply play defense and "run out the clock" the team that does this first in the beginning of the match can exert control and hold it for quite sometime, against a good team it take quite a bit of effort and time to wrestle away that control. So even when that control is lost the team that had control is still being rewarded by still doing damage to the enemy MCC even thought they no longer control the objective. Those that think that period of time is insignificant need to look at the PFB v Hellstorm match again as well as other tightly contested matches b/w 2 really good teams. That difference when multiplied by all the times a spawn has been hack/rehacked adds up and it can be just the difference b/w victory and defeat. Shouldn't we strive to make sure if a team that manages to wrestle away objectives from an enemy team(a task that can be exteremely difficult to do against the better opponents) are still being kicked in the butt with continued damage to their MCC for their efforts?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 379	Posted - 2013.04.23 18:38:00 - [18] - Quote I think the current mechanics appropriately balance rewards for offensive and defensive gameplay. If anything, it is in favor of offensive gameplay. What you are suggesting is tipping the scales even more to the favor of offensive play (and therefore a little more boring). I am not on par with the skills of the corps that you are mentioning, but having them weigh in on what I just said would be helpful.
Chimeric Destiny Intara Direct Action Caldari State 48	Posted - 2013.04.23 19:57:00 - [19] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: I think the current mechanics appropriately balance rewards for offensive and defensive gameplay. If anything, it is in favor of offensive gameplay. What you are suggesting is tipping the scales even more to the favor of offensive play (and therefore a little more boring). I am not on par with the skills of the corps that you are mentioning, but having them weigh in on what I just said would be helpful. Also what you are saying is that the average foot-speed of a team here makes a big difference in the first few minutes of a game if they can capitalize on it, but then once boundaries are set, that time it takes to get from one objective to another doesn't matter as much if battle lines are more or less drawn. Well no this doesnt tip the balance in favor of offense, in fact anyone who plays at the higher levels will tell you that the game is far more in favor of defense and holding an objective and even the loss of an objective to a hack is not as big an issue as one would perceive. It is actually rather easy to recover from and get back in to dehack. Additionally while the team is working to retake the objective they are benefitting from continued damage to the enemy MCC, and that aspect is what tips the balance in the favor of whoever held the objective last. Do this long enough and you can get a win despite having you defense broken. Its not the singular event of loss/gain of an objective but rather the cumulative effect of all the instances this occurs that can tip the balance and outcome of the match.


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