DUST Search - Thoughts: Removal of Damage Modifiers

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Ydubbs81 RND wrote:

Damage mods are not the problem. If they dont use damage mods then they may fill the slots with shields. Then your argument will be how can a scout suit stand a chance with someone who has 500+ shields and 200+ armor?

It is the way this game has always been designed....my position is this. You can get the same gear that they have....so, if you feel that someone has an advantage then use the same fits that they have. If they bring out adv gear when you have std, then bring your adv gear out. If they are damage modding and you have a suit fitted with more health instead (and feel they have an advantage over you), then bring out your damage modded suit....and vice versa

If Damage Mods aren't the problem, Assault Suits aren't the problem and Weapons aren't the problem - what is? ISK reward values? Are we being paid too much in that we can afford to run Prototype gear consistently?

What is the actual issue if not for any of those categories? Is it simply that everything -else- is not powerful enough? If so, why aren't they being fixed?

The entire premise of your argument is that in order to "adapt" to a situation, I have to match it as there isn't a counter. If I am -forced- to use the same fits that they are than it is doing exactly as I said and destroying specialization. If I can't play the role I intend to play because it's impractical, or inefficient, then what am I left with besides doing something that I -dont- want to do?

Bendtner92 wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

This game shouldn't be centered around who can have the most Damage Mods/Shield Extenders.

That's how it is when there's only 3 things to put in the high slots.

There's some electronic modules, to my knowledge.

Either way this sounds like a great reason to start implementing some Stasis Webifiers, which I believe were mentioned back in Fanfest 2012.

This is why we SHOULD NOT BE GOING TO COMMERCIAL RELEASE WITH UPRISING. It's ridiculous having to "test" features when we don't have half of the tools we need to get an edge over the most commonly used archtypes that just so happen to be some of the most powerful.

Either way, I still stand by my ideal that they need to be removed and have damage increases applied to the suit/weapon combination, or solely from skills. Having an end-all be-all module that increases the damage of -everything- is silly.

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Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1155	Posted - 2013.04.12 09:32:00 - [1] - Quote In my honest opinion, I feel that Damage Modifiers take away from the game. The problem comes from there being more reason to go with the Glass Cannon builds than there are to specialize in a certain field. When a Prototype Assault Suit can apply 3-4 Damage Modifiers (regardless of whether or not stacking penalties apply) there leaves a gap in the distance between Damage Output and Survivability, in theory. Unfortunately, this isn't how it works. Now, I don't want to jump to the conclusion that the Assault Suit is the reason for this - perhaps it's the module. Why I say this is because there's not much sacrifice in order to achieve that sort of power. Your survivability doesn't decrease, it stays the same or simply gets higher. In Eve Online, shields take a long time to recharge and recharge at a constant rate. This is problematic in Dust 514 as simply staying out of the path of a bullet for five seconds will often-times recharge your shields a good deal, if not to full. Applying damage modifiers doesn't take away from this, so your survivability doesn't decrease - it stays the same. Damage Modifiers apply to a -range- of weapons, rather than one specific type (Magnetic Stabilizers only work with Hybrid Weapons in Eve Online, for example) I feel that this is just bad design. A light weapon damage modifier will apply to Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Laser Rifles, Sniper Rifles and Swarm Launchers. Why use anything else when you have such a high degree of versatility there? There is no counter to their usage, at least none that are profound. There is no real way to recovery from the damage quickly enough to outmatch the sheer damage potential of their use. A 30-40% increase to damage is high and when combined with someone who is a good shot only increases their potential exponentially. Someone who is a poorer shot that decides to go with, say, a Heavy dropsuit for increased survivability still won't be able to outmatch the high damage output if he can't remove the source fast enough. There is no way for newer/poorer player to stand toe-to-toe with someone that can stack them unless they themselves field the same fitting. Dropsuits that field them are often powerful enough in their own right. An Assault Suit with damage modifiers will still turn out with more EHP than a Scout Suit. Not only does the Assault Suit turn out with a higher likeliness to survive the encounter, he will have an advantage on damage as well. Cross the fact that a Prototype Assault Suit has more fitting slots than a Prototype Scout Suit, he will almost inevitably have higher survivability -and- damage potential no matter what. A defense for the Scout suit is that it relies on speed as it's defense. This is not the case as it has very little difference in speed values as say a Type-II series Assault Suit. This is also not a good defense as there is simply no possible way (detailed in another post I've made) to outmaneuver someone firing at you, in ANY situation. Another defense for the Scout suit is that it relies on it's low Profile. This is also a poor argument as, to be seen, all one has to do is simply look at you - regardless of Profile versus Precision. A Heavy aiming directly at you will still make you pop up on the Map even if you stack Profile Dampeners. Cloaking is being implemented soon and while this -may- alleviate some of the issue, Active Scanners are being implemented at the same time as a direct counter to them. Beyond that, they operate on a Timer and have a Cool-down. This will -help- but it will certainly not -fix-. It takes away from Specialization. Why field one suit when another has more slots to fit things in? Why use anything else when DPS will -always- outmatch Defense? Why use a weapon that trades rate of fire for damage potential when I can close the gap using Damage Mods? The fact they're so versatile removes playstyles from having an obvious edge, reducing them solely to situational use by comparison to a build that will work in -all- scenarios. A Sniper Rifle can inflict high damage with accuracy at the cost of fire-rate and usability. Why use a Sniper Rifle when I can simply use a Laser Rifle with damage modifiers attached and get the same effect? The only real trade-off there is the ability to fire at super-long range. Specialization, in this case, becomes a thing of "because I want to" rather than "because it's practical and/or effective". It outright ruins the entire niche of the game Fit any way you want, specialize, adapt. "deep character advancement" are the words they use on the website. This isn't the case as I have now explained that there's only one real path to take in the game. There is simply no way to adapt and/or specialize against these things because they are the King of All Trades. No matter what you do, when pitted against someone with Damage Modifiers you will always be at a disadvantage solely because there is no way to recover from the damage output fast enough with either shields, armor or speed. Your only real hope is to either be out of range or hope that they're a terrible shot - both of which are highly unlikely in this game.
Eris Ernaga GamersForChrist 114	Posted - 2013.04.12 11:23:00 - [2] - Quote Same applies to tank stacking up in just way to much damage no matter what defense you fit you will be 2 or 3 hitted it makes tanking pointless and a focus on pure damage.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 470	Posted - 2013.04.12 11:29:00 - [3] - Quote Yes, take out 1 of the 3 modules that are used in the high slots... Also didn't someone calculate that shield extenders are better than damage mods anyway?
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1155	Posted - 2013.04.12 11:35:00 - [4] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Yes, take out 1 of the 3 modules that are used in the high slots... Also didn't someone calculate that shield extenders are better than damage mods anyway? Go look on Youtube for fits. You'll see that the Damage Modifier stacking is far more popular. Just as well, you're not necessarily showing any reason as to why -not-, just throwing out sarcasm (which I should come to expect by now) Shield Extenders don't really matter when another player's DPS is 500-800. Two seconds of continuous fire from an Assault Rifle can down most Heavies with 1000 EHP.
Brjann InnRee WarRavens 2	Posted - 2013.04.12 11:42:00 - [5] - Quote Have to agree with you Aeon. seems like Dam Mods are king on the field. porbably why so many lazers lately
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 470	Posted - 2013.04.12 11:45:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Yes, take out 1 of the 3 modules that are used in the high slots... Also didn't someone calculate that shield extenders are better than damage mods anyway? Go look on Youtube for fits. You'll see that the Damage Modifier stacking is far more popular. Just as well, you're not necessarily showing any reason as to why -not-, just throwing out sarcasm (which I should come to expect by now) Shield Extenders don't really matter when another player's DPS is 500-800. Two seconds of continuous fire from an Assault Rifle can down most Heavies with 1000 EHP. Assault players: Player A is using 3 damage mods and a shield extender (since the fourth damage mod is almost useless). Lets say he's using 2 basic armor plates as well. He'll have around 550 health. Player B is using 4 shield extenders. He's also using 2 basic armor plates. He'll have around 750 health. It'll take Player A 16 shots with a Duvolle AR to kill Player B. It'll take Player B 15 shots with a Duvolle AR to kill Player A. Due to Player B's more health he can also take more shots from everyone else shooting at him than Player A can.
Chewies Estwing Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.04.12 12:16:00 - [7] - Quote it should be harder to attain such attacking prowess , i have to admit , my swarm build holds 3 complex mods (CBR7) and one hit makes the majority of tank drivers look for cover , or refuse to approach me . There needs to be a better balance .
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1155	Posted - 2013.04.12 12:38:00 - [8] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Yes, take out 1 of the 3 modules that are used in the high slots... Also didn't someone calculate that shield extenders are better than damage mods anyway? Go look on Youtube for fits. You'll see that the Damage Modifier stacking is far more popular. Just as well, you're not necessarily showing any reason as to why -not-, just throwing out sarcasm (which I should come to expect by now) Shield Extenders don't really matter when another player's DPS is 500-800. Two seconds of continuous fire from an Assault Rifle can down most Heavies with 1000 EHP. Assault players: Player A is using 3 damage mods and a shield extender (since the fourth damage mod is almost useless). Lets say he's using 2 basic armor plates as well. He'll have around 550 health. Player B is using 4 shield extenders. He's also using 2 basic armor plates. He'll have around 750 health. It'll take Player A 16 shots with a Duvolle AR to kill Player B. It'll take Player B 15 shots with a Duvolle AR to kill Player A. Due to Player B's more health he can also take more shots from everyone else shooting at him than Player A can. Even if that holds true, what happens with the rest of the player base? Scouts are just screwed no matter what? Heavies are forced to take such a detrimental hit to their speed to stand a chance against that kind of DPS? This game shouldn't be centered around who can have the most Damage Mods/Shield Extenders.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 1045	Posted - 2013.04.12 12:52:00 - [9] - Quote Damage mods are not the problem. If they dont use damage mods then they may fill the slots with shields. Then your argument will be how can a scout suit stand a chance with someone who has 500+ shields and 200+ armor? It is the way this game has always been designed....my position is this. You can get the same gear that they have....so, if you feel that someone has an advantage then use the same fits that they have. If they bring out adv gear when you have std, then bring your adv gear out. If they are damage modding and you have a suit fitted with more health instead (and feel they have an advantage over you), then bring out your damage modded suit....and vice versa
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 470	Posted - 2013.04.12 12:54:00 - [10] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: This game shouldn't be centered around who can have the most Damage Mods/Shield Extenders. That's how it is when there's only 3 things to put in the high slots.

Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 1045	Posted - 2013.04.12 12:55:00 - [11] - Quote But remember that it is about playstyles and preferences. You may feel that your shield suit will outmatch a damage modded suit. Some scouts may feel that they can take out assault guys easier. It's rock over scissors but scissors over paper, etc
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 695	Posted - 2013.04.12 12:57:00 - [12] - Quote There isn't a reason to change damage mods into Eve's system, we can't even field multiple primary weapons besides on a special suit
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1156	Posted - 2013.04.12 13:17:00 - [13] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Damage mods are not the problem. If they dont use damage mods then they may fill the slots with shields. Then your argument will be how can a scout suit stand a chance with someone who has 500+ shields and 200+ armor? It is the way this game has always been designed....my position is this. You can get the same gear that they have....so, if you feel that someone has an advantage then use the same fits that they have. If they bring out adv gear when you have std, then bring your adv gear out. If they are damage modding and you have a suit fitted with more health instead (and feel they have an advantage over you), then bring out your damage modded suit....and vice versa If Damage Mods aren't the problem, Assault Suits aren't the problem and Weapons aren't the problem - what is? ISK reward values? Are we being paid too much in that we can afford to run Prototype gear consistently? What is the actual issue if not for any of those categories? Is it simply that everything -else- is not powerful enough? If so, why aren't they being fixed? The entire premise of your argument is that in order to "adapt" to a situation, I have to match it as there isn't a counter. If I am -forced- to use the same fits that they are than it is doing exactly as I said and destroying specialization. If I can't play the role I intend to play because it's impractical, or inefficient, then what am I left with besides doing something that I -dont- want to do? Bendtner92 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: This game shouldn't be centered around who can have the most Damage Mods/Shield Extenders. That's how it is when there's only 3 things to put in the high slots. There's some electronic modules, to my knowledge. Either way this sounds like a great reason to start implementing some Stasis Webifiers, which I believe were mentioned back in Fanfest 2012. This is why we SHOULD NOT BE GOING TO COMMERCIAL RELEASE WITH UPRISING. It's ridiculous having to "test" features when we don't have half of the tools we need to get an edge over the most commonly used archtypes that just so happen to be some of the most powerful. Either way, I still stand by my ideal that they need to be removed and have damage increases applied to the suit/weapon combination, or solely from skills. Having an end-all be-all module that increases the damage of -everything- is silly.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 1045	Posted - 2013.04.12 14:32:00 - [14] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Damage mods are not the problem. If they dont use damage mods then they may fill the slots with shields. Then your argument will be how can a scout suit stand a chance with someone who has 500+ shields and 200+ armor? It is the way this game has always been designed....my position is this. You can get the same gear that they have....so, if you feel that someone has an advantage then use the same fits that they have. If they bring out adv gear when you have std, then bring your adv gear out. If they are damage modding and you have a suit fitted with more health instead (and feel they have an advantage over you), then bring out your damage modded suit....and vice versa If Damage Mods aren't the problem, Assault Suits aren't the problem and Weapons aren't the problem - what is? ISK reward values? Are we being paid too much in that we can afford to run Prototype gear consistently? What is the actual issue if not for any of those categories? Is it simply that everything -else- is not powerful enough? If so, why aren't they being fixed? The entire premise of your argument is that in order to "adapt" to a situation, I have to match it as there isn't a counter. If I am -forced- to use the same fits that they are than it is doing exactly as I said and destroying specialization. If I can't play the role I intend to play because it's impractical, or inefficient, then what am I left with besides doing something that I -dont- want to do? Bendtner92 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: This game shouldn't be centered around who can have the most Damage Mods/Shield Extenders. That's how it is when there's only 3 things to put in the high slots. There's some electronic modules, to my knowledge. Either way this sounds like a great reason to start implementing some Stasis Webifiers, which I believe were mentioned back in Fanfest 2012. This is why we SHOULD NOT BE GOING TO COMMERCIAL RELEASE WITH UPRISING. It's ridiculous having to "test" features when we don't have half of the tools we need to get an edge over the most commonly used archtypes that just so happen to be some of the most powerful. Either way, I still stand by my ideal that they need to be removed and have damage increases applied to the suit/weapon combination, or solely from skills. Having an end-all be-all module that increases the damage of -everything- is silly. The thing is...there isnt a problem. Unless you want the game to be converted to 100hp health and without our current system (which, btw, is one of our major differences between other games). If you remove dmg mods for your reason, then the same argument can be made against shield extenders. Then you remove shield extenders, and armor plates, and shield regulators and rechargers, etc. Then what is the point of having those slots? Whatever your specialty is...it has its advantages over assault suits as well as its disadvantages. You have to exploit your advantages better....that's your counter.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 259	Posted - 2013.04.12 14:50:00 - [15] - Quote There is no problem.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2174	Posted - 2013.04.12 15:28:00 - [16] - Quote No OP, that's what CoD did and we don't want to be like CoD... but seriously though, no. The Damage Mods are the only thing standing in the way of this game becoming a complete shield tanking fest.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1966	Posted - 2013.04.12 16:05:00 - [17] - Quote Keep in mind that not all of the modules are out in the market. Many players will tend to specialize anyways regardless of the damage mods into something non-combat related like recon, infiltration, medic, dropship piloting, command suit boosting, etc.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 308	Posted - 2013.04.12 17:36:00 - [18] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: No OP, that's what CoD did and we don't want to be like CoD... but seriously though, no. The Damage Mods are the only thing standing in the way of this game becoming a complete shield tanking fest. This. Some options will always be more popular than others. In a FPS high DPS is an obvious desire for most players but I would say this is very far off from game breaking.


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