DUST Search - [Feedback] Moving away from traditional racial bonuses?

Korvin Lomont wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Korvin Lomont wrote:

I really like your Ideas I would make the following changes to your list:
ASSAULT SUITS:
Amarr
-inrease Dropsuitarmor by 3% / Lvl Assault Suits

Gallente
- +1 Hp Dropsuitselfrepair / Lvl Assault Suits

LOGISTICS:
-Inrease armor repairrate from Triage tools by 5% / Lvl Gallente Logistics

Increased Efficacy of Armor plates would increase the dropsuit armor effectively, but also add more benefit for high level modules as affects the modules by a % and not just the base HP. This allows you to actually get more HP overall and puts the focus on the modules and not so much the suit which is where CCP seems to be going.

Again, increased efficacy of armor repairers more or less does what you're talking about, but focuses on the modules.

And that bonus is more or less already applied to the Minmatar Logistics Suit in my suggestion. I actually like the Gallente having that abilit to equip better gear items due to lowered cost, so I'll respectfully disagree with you on that.

Ah you have good points here. BTW sorry for oversseing the Bonus for minmater Logi I was still a bit tired as I made the post.

So basicly I agree with the bonusses but not in the way they get applied. I still prefere a Dropsuitbonus as this benefits all Dropsuits in the same way (low level as well as Proto) and is more flexible as it leaves room for modules. And I believe the bonusses are more powerfull when applied to the suit. But that is just a matter of taste I guess.


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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 650	Posted - 2013.04.11 22:04:00 - [1] - Quote So for those of you who check the test server, you will have undoubtedly seen the changes to the dropsuit system, as well as the addition of new racial dropsuit types. With these new suits comes role bonuses, essentially bonuses to various stats dependent on what level your suit skill is trained to. There are two tiers of skills, a General Suit Type skill, and then a Race Specific Suit Skill. Let me give you a rough breakdown of how these are currently set up on the Sisi server. ASSAULT SUITS: +5% Shield Recharge Rate / lvl of Assault Suits Amarr: 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up / Lvl of Amarr Assault Caldari: 2% to hybrid weapon reload speed / Lvl of Caldari Assault Gallente: 5% reduction to hybrid weaponry PG/CPU usage / Lvl Gallente Assault Minmatar: 5% to sidarm weaponry magazine size / Lvl Minmatar Assault LOGISTICS SUITS: +1 HP/second to dropsuit armor repair rate for repair tools / Lvl of Logistics Suits Amarr: +5% Efficacy of Armor Repair modules / Lvl of Amarr Logistics Caldari: +5% Efficacy of Shield Extender modules / Lvl of Caldari Logistics Gallente: -5% to PG/CPU cost of equipment / Lvl of Gallente Logistic Minmatar: +5% Hacking Speed / Lvl of Minmatar Logistics SCOUT SUITS: -5% Scan Profile / Lvl Scout Suits Gallente: +10% Scan Radius / Lvl of Gallente Scouts Minmatar: +5% Melee and Nova Knife Damage / Lvl of Minmatar Scout SENTINAL (Heavy): +5% Reduction to Weapon Feedback Damage / Lvl Sentinal Suits Amarr: +2% Heavy Weapon Reload Speed / Lvl Amarr Sentinal So. There is a lot of good stuff and a lot of messed up stuff in here. -Assault suits are all encouraged to shield tank, despite both Gallente and Amarr traditionally not being shield tanked -Caldari Assault suits get reload speed which is sorta useful but not much of an incentive -Minmatar Assault magazine size on sidearms is...interesting I guess, but again not all that useful in most cases -Gallente resource cost is actually not bad, but could be better -Amarr basically gets the best deal because its race specific skills essentially boosts the direct lethality of laser weapons, while the other races have a pretty underwhelming bonus. -Logistics suits get the bonus to repair tool rate which is great but I'd like to see this fleshed out and diversified for all support equipment -I actually like all of the race specific bonuses for logistics suits, I think it fits the races well. -Scout Suits get reduced scan profile which is good, though i think it could be changed a bit to fit the races better -Scout racial bonuses are pretty good, Gallente is more of a scanner while Minmatar is more of an assassin. Basically I don't like the blanket bonuses that are applied to all suits of the same class, despite the race. I think it flatlines the different suits too much and makes them too similar to one another. The last thing we want is for certain suits to be unused because they're simply inferior due to another suit being similar enough but better to be a clear replacement. I like the two skill system, I think that's interested, but even the general Assault Suit skill should offer a difference bonus to each suit as to make it more in line with traditional racial bonuses. General Suit Skill should offer a more base bonus, tailored more towards survivability in most cases. Race Specific Suit Skills should offer a more specific bonus, more in line with traditional race bonuses and more of a utility bonus to that race and suit. Here are my suggested bonuses, I've purposefully neglected putting in actual values since that's more of a balance issue than I want to tackle at this time. ASSAULT SUITS: Amarr -Increased Armor Plate Efficacy / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Cooldown Rate of Laser Weapons / Lvl Amarr Assault Caldari -Increased Shield Extender Efficacy / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Effective Range of Hybrid Weapons / Lvl Caldari Assault Gallente -Increased Armor Repair module Efficacy / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Damage of Hybrid Weapons / Lvl Gallente Assault Minmatar -Increased Shield Recharge Rate / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Stamina and Recovery / Lvl Minmatar Assault LOGISTICS: Amarr -Increased Armor Repair module Efficacy / Lvl Logistics Suits -Increased Armor-on-Revive for Injectors / Lvl of Amarr Logistics Caldari -Increased Shield Extender Efficacy / Lvl Logistics Suits -Increased Nanite Cluster Capacity for Nanohives / Lvl of Caldari Logistics Gallente -Decreased CPU/PG cost of Equipment / Lvl Logistics Suits -Decreased Spawn time for Drop Uplinks / Lvl Gallente Logistics Minmatar -Increased hacking speed / Lvl Logistics Suits -Increased repair rate of repair tools / Lvl Minmatar Logistics SCOUT: Gallente -Decreased Scan Profile / Lvl Scout Suits -Increased Scan Radius / Lvl Gallente Scouts Minmatar -Increased Sprint Speed / Lvl Scout Suits -Increased Melee and Nova Knife damage / Lvl Minmatar Scouts SENTINAL: Amarr -Increased Heavy Weapon Reload Speed / Lvl Sentinal Suits -Increased Efficacy of Armor Plates / Lvl Amarr Sentinals
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 652	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:01:00 - [2] - Quote Ops Fox wrote: Dominus Fatali wrote: Thanks so much for publishing the Scout info, the screen shots I had seen didn't show it. From a lore standpoint, your idea is rather good. However, I feel that this would make things overly diverse, in addition to adding a lot of text to the description of the General Assault and Logistics Operation skills. Perhaps each General type reduces the cost of that type of dropsuit, while the Specific (Gallente Scout for example) give both the bonuses that you suggested. Just a thought. Isnt the diversity of Dust and the customization that makes it so interesting I don't think it's a lot more text, I mean I aside from the actual %'s, all that would need to be listed is exactly what I've written above...it's two short lines of text. And diversity IS what makes it good, the whole point of diversity is to assure that every suit has a unique role, and prevents any one suit from fulfilling multiple roles in an optimized fashion. Such is the foundation for strong team-based gameplay.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 655	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:10:00 - [3] - Quote Dominus Fatali wrote: Ops Fox wrote: Dominus Fatali wrote: Thanks so much for publishing the Scout info, the screen shots I had seen didn't show it. From a lore standpoint, your idea is rather good. However, I feel that this would make things overly diverse, in addition to adding a lot of text to the description of the General Assault and Logistics Operation skills. Perhaps each General type reduces the cost of that type of dropsuit, while the Specific (Gallente Scout for example) give both the bonuses that you suggested. Just a thought. Isnt the diversity of Dust and the customization that makes it so interesting Of course it is, and don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of it. Some players coming from other games in the FPS genre, however, may not fully appreciate it. Now that I remember the upcoming node based skill system, this proposal seems much more feasible and less of a massive block of text to describe it, depending on how it is done and stuff. To clarify, there would be minimal text on the skill itself. These role bonuses would be listed on each individual suit. For example: Assault Suit Operation Understanding of Assault Suit systems and operation Gallente Assault Operation Understanding of Gallente Assault-class dropsuit operation Assault G-I (Which is a Gallente Assault Type I, going off the Sisi naming convention) Assault Suit Bonus: +5% Armor Repair module Efficacy / Lvl Gallente Assault Bonus: +2% Hybrid Weapon Damage / Lvl -------------
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 656	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:30:00 - [4] - Quote They are two different skills, and they are both required to unlock higher level equipment. However the suit itself looks at the level of those two skills, and applies bonuses accordingly. This is how it works in EVE, for example: -Caldari Frigate- Unlocks the ability to fly Caldari Frigates --- -Covert Ops- Unlocks the ability to fly Covert Ops ships --- -Manticore (Caldari Stealth Bomber)- Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: +10% to Torpedo explosion velocity and flight time per level +20% to Torpedo velocity per level Covert Ops Skill Bonus: +5% to kinetic bomb damage per level +15% to kinetic torpedo damage per level
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 656	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:37:00 - [5] - Quote Dominus Fatali wrote: Oh, that makes so much more sense now. It's like I tell people, EVE is complicated, but once you get your head around how they do things, it usually makes a lot of sense.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 658	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:48:00 - [6] - Quote Tiluvo wrote: Interesting ideas, but there's one error in the OP; Logistic suits get a bonus to the repair rate of repair modules, not remote repair tools. I know that's how its worded, but honestly I think repair tools makes a lot more sense which makes me think that it's actually referring to the tools. A bonus to self armor repair modules gives the logi and overly combat oriented role, which I think is really just CCP being horrible at wording things.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 663	Posted - 2013.04.12 18:52:00 - [7] - Quote Lol I don't disagree that armor repair modules are underpowered, I wwas simply remarking that adding a double bonus to them for a Logistics Suit doesn't make sense. If anything the Amarr Assault should have that bonus, since Logi's are mostly support units. Because Logi's can lean towards combat somewhat, I think it's appropriate that a couple of them get a bonus to defenses, however it shoudl not be a massive health bonus like the assaults would get. That's just how I feel, and of course I could be completely off base with the interpretation of the wording of the skill. EDIT: Updated the original post to include the additional interpretation of that skill bonus. My suggested bonuses still stand however.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 664	Posted - 2013.04.13 22:22:00 - [8] - Quote nudge
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 671	Posted - 2013.04.14 18:28:00 - [9] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: I really like your Ideas I would make the following changes to your list: ASSAULT SUITS: Amarr -inrease Dropsuitarmor by 3% / Lvl Assault Suits Gallente - +1 Hp Dropsuitselfrepair / Lvl Assault Suits LOGISTICS: -Inrease armor repairrate from Triage tools by 5% / Lvl Gallente Logistics Increased Efficacy of Armor plates would increase the dropsuit armor effectively, but also add more benefit for high level modules as affects the modules by a % and not just the base HP. This allows you to actually get more HP overall and puts the focus on the modules and not so much the suit which is where CCP seems to be going. Again, increased efficacy of armor repairers more or less does what you're talking about, but focuses on the modules. And that bonus is more or less already applied to the Minmatar Logistics Suit in my suggestion. I actually like the Gallente having that abilit to equip better gear items due to lowered cost, so I'll respectfully disagree with you on that. Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'd be completely cool with removing Damage Modifiers outright and giving racial damage bonuses. Damage Modifiers ruin this game. Damage Modifiers are pretty standard in EVE, so they'd have a hard time not using any. Perhaps they could use some rebalancing in the form of higher fitting requirements, but they are unlikely to simply go away. The way I see it there are 2 major problems with damage modifiers, one more apparent than the other. 1. Stacking Penalties Don't Work - This one is a given, modules should not become more effective the more of them you use because of compounding effects. Pretty sure everyone in the community can agree that this needs to be fixed. 2. Damage Mods did not scale down with weapon and suit flatlining - Before, weapons would have a 10% difference in damage between Standard>Advanced>Prototype and Damage Mods also gave 10% bonus, so 1 damage mod = 1 level higher grade of weapon. Semi-recently they flatlined the weapons, making the difference between each weapon only 5%. Now I agreed with this change, however the problem is that the damage mods did not scale down with the weapons, meaning 1 damage mod (now) = 2 levels higher grade weapon. Secondary stat bonuses aside (some increase to accuracy and range), you can now turn your Exile in to a Proto AR with a single module, whereas before you would need 2 (more like 3 if stacking penalties worked) to do the same thing. So basically what I suggest is that they simply cut the bonus for damage mods in more or less in half to match the flatlining of weapons (2%, 3%, 5%) Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Thanks to the OP for typing this up and giving it some thought. I was rather surprised myself that it was the skills and not the dropsuits that got the benefits. In EVE, it's the other way around (as several posters have commented). The strange result of that is that it appears that if I wanted to armor tank a Laser Rifle on a Gallente Logistics (not sure why, but...) that I could train: Gallente Dropsuit: 1 Gallente Logistics Dropsuit: 1 Amarr Dropsuit: 1 Amarr Assault Dropsuit: 5 Amarr Logistics Dropsuit: 5 That would be the fastest way to get max bonuses to Lazorz and Armor Repair, but on a Gallente suit. I want to clarify something that I didn't really get into in the original post as to sorta simplify the concept. There is no like...general Assault Dropsuit skill, there are from my understanding Frame-Size skills, 3 each for race, Light, Medium, and Heavy. Light = Scouts Medium = Assault & Logistics Heavy = Heavy So when I say "Assault Suit" skill, I'm actually referring to "Gallente Medium Dropsuit" skill. So in that regard you could train Medium Frames and be leveling up both Assault and Logistics at the same time. I'll try to update the original post to avoid confusion.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 674	Posted - 2013.04.15 01:33:00 - [10] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: . . OP post . . Totally agree that the CCP's plans on skill bonuses is incoherent, uneven between races. Also nice that you made a suggestion on better skill bonuses. But your suggestions are way overpowered, sorry to say. Milder ones please. How can they be overpowered when there are no actual values listed? I already said I left those values out intentionally to avoid people getting caught up on the numbers and focus more on the idea behind traditional role and racial bonuses.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 695	Posted - 2013.04.15 22:06:00 - [11] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: I really like your Ideas I would make the following changes to your list: ASSAULT SUITS: Amarr -inrease Dropsuitarmor by 3% / Lvl Assault Suits Gallente - +1 Hp Dropsuitselfrepair / Lvl Assault Suits LOGISTICS: -Inrease armor repairrate from Triage tools by 5% / Lvl Gallente Logistics Increased Efficacy of Armor plates would increase the dropsuit armor effectively, but also add more benefit for high level modules as affects the modules by a % and not just the base HP. This allows you to actually get more HP overall and puts the focus on the modules and not so much the suit which is where CCP seems to be going. Again, increased efficacy of armor repairers more or less does what you're talking about, but focuses on the modules. And that bonus is more or less already applied to the Minmatar Logistics Suit in my suggestion. I actually like the Gallente having that abilit to equip better gear items due to lowered cost, so I'll respectfully disagree with you on that. Ah you have good points here. BTW sorry for oversseing the Bonus for minmater Logi I was still a bit tired as I made the post. So basicly I agree with the bonusses but not in the way they get applied. I still prefere a Dropsuitbonus as this benefits all Dropsuits in the same way (low level as well as Proto) and is more flexible as it leaves room for modules. And I believe the bonusses are more powerfull when applied to the suit. But that is just a matter of taste I guess. Except Standard>Advanced>Prototype suits all have the same base armor, so in reality having the bonuses affect the base value on the suit, you gain zero additional benefit from the skill by using a higher level suit. By applying it to the modules, it allows the proto suits to gain more of a benefit because they're able to equip better modules. Basically if you want to flatline the suits you apply the bonuses to the suits. If you want a greater advantage for using the better suits and modules, you apply the skill to the module. So yes its a matter of personal preference.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 704	Posted - 2013.04.16 20:54:00 - [12] - Quote nudge.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 711	Posted - 2013.04.19 08:44:00 - [13] - Quote nudge nudge.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 717	Posted - 2013.04.20 18:10:00 - [14] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Minmatar: 5% to sidarm weaponry magazine size / Lvl Minmatar Assault Useless, I dont see ANYONE skilling into this, you'd get what? 1 extra round in a scrambler? If that? Since scrablers are the only good side arm I see zero point to this. Minmatar: +5% Melee and Nova Knife Damage / Lvl of Minmatar Scout This is just plain awful, Nova knives and melee are both horrible thanks to poor reach and worse hit detection (which will never be completely fixed because there will always be server latancy CCP seems to hate Minmatar I guarantee if things stay as they are, we'll see 80% of assault suits be Amarr, because that's the only one that has a decent role bonus for assault suits.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 726	Posted - 2013.04.22 20:15:00 - [15] - Quote Yeah I normally hate bumping threads but I feel very strongly about this issue, and it seems it's gaining a lot of support from the community as a whole so I've been doing my best to keep it on the front page for the Devs to see. It would be nice if they ARE reading it to make a post COUGH even if they don't take my advice. Maybe I'll get back on IRC sometime and ***** about it.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 727	Posted - 2013.04.23 19:27:00 - [16] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Even if we're not likely to see any changes until a build or two after Uprising it would still be great to get some CPM (or better yet Dev) response/reaction this this thread. Does CPM even exist? I thought it was just the War Council which is 5 people who are deciding on how the first CPM election is going to be held.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 743	Posted - 2013.04.25 02:05:00 - [17] - Quote Well we'll see in the next few days if they're took my suggestion to heart or not...
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 784	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:24:00 - [18] - Quote cough well now that everyone realizes the Assault suits have BS bonuses, might as well bump this thread again.