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Isk, Tanks, AV, and other such things.

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General Grodd Ahrendee Mercenaries 45	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:12:00 - [1] - Quote I tank in every match. At least, I try to lol. Why? Because 1. It's fun. Lol. 2. I'm best at it, I've the most practice and SP in tanks. 3. All-ámy sp is in it, with the exception of HMGs(at level 3); there isn't much else I can do if I can't use my tank. 4. It's my role. Look, well-fitted gunnlogi costs roughly 700-900k Isk. Now if you're using prototype turrents that's about 1.2 million Isk. Yet tanks can be destroyed/lost very quickly. Either a proto forge gunner or two AV'naders can take you extremely quickly. Especially if they have nanohives. An RDV can fall on it and destroy it instantly. It can take quite a few matches to get that money back, especially considering a full time tanker does not have the dropsuits nor the weapons or equipment to fights players with advanced+ gear. So, either certain AV weapons need to nerfed to some extent, or tanks buffed, or both, or tankers should earn more money, or all of the above. Oh and Isk-wise, this game isn't about just getting Isk to cover your gear, it's also about gaining isk for new weapons, gear, and upcoming items not yet released. As a tanker it's very hard to get positive Isk. Lets compare to a well fitted assault proto suit. A standard well fitted tank is obviously more expensive, powerful, and buffer than a proto suit. The suit costs about 200k Isk. The tank 800k. You may think that a proto suit is easier to kill than the tank. Which is mostly true. Except one with high level forge guns can kill the tank nearly as fast as one with high level assault rifles can kill the assault player, plus armor tanks will take more damage from swarms. Proto guy loses 200k Isk. Tanker loses 800k Isk. And then they both use militia suits for the rest of the game. The assault player is better as infantry, so he earns more Isk. The tanker himself is at a 4x greater Isk loss, and will also now not gain as many kills as the assault player because he is not so great at playing infantry. As for proto tanks, just don't even go there lol. The tanker must now go through more matches to recover his Isk, and is not as good at it as the assault player. Also, the Assault player can use advanced and standard gear too, which is even cheaper, and as a result he can use those suits and weapons to gain his Isk even more effectively. We need something to be done about this, maybe that's were high, low, and null sec come into play. Maybe this mega update will solve this issue. Who knows. Because I don't. General Grodd, out
Zekain Kade BetaMax. CRONOS. 1185	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:14:00 - [2] - Quote That wall is too tall to scale
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 123	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:16:00 - [3] - Quote Paragraphs were a great invention. I wonder who made them and if we can order some? Welcome to the modern delimma, I am sure all of our current armies would love to put out Main Battle Tanks for the same cost as a soldier and have those tanks be able to take enemy AV fire without being damaged. Sadly though, tanks still cost a pile of cash and can get destroyed instantly.
Chris F2112 187. 40	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:20:00 - [4] - Quote Perhaps tanks are not meant to be sustainable. I believe that tanks are meant to be high power weapons to bring out in high stakes battles. It honestly sounds like you just want to have an invincible pubstomping machine.
Anmol Singh The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 6	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:13:00 - [5] - Quote all they need to do is stop swarms from being locked on behind a 10 foot tall hill, and make precision strikes do less damage to tanks... also stop the tracking ability on AV and nerf flux cuz a good flux can do 2000 shield and you get 3 of the good fluxes
Shadowswipe WarRavens 54	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:31:00 - [6] - Quote You shouldn't have rushed to tanks. You should have worked on cross suit/ank skills while slowly skilling up both. So you have something to fall back to when out of isk. The rule in EVE follows true here in DUST. If you cant' afford to lose it, don't use it.
Shadowswipe WarRavens 54	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:33:00 - [7] - Quote Get into a corp that has a steady isk flow after May 6th and is willing to reimburse your lost tanks because districts will get about 6 million a day if properly defended or left alone. 8 million if it has the right SI.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 427	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:36:00 - [8] - Quote You realise that tanks are meant to have infantry support, and if a person with AV nades gets close enough to throw them at you, you're doing it wrong?
Charizard Zakalwe Immobile Infantry 18	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:43:00 - [9] - Quote Tanks could use some ECM bonuses. A module which would fire chaff clouds or something, or a turret that could take out incoming swarms, or something. Something that would break the lock/hide the tank, or make it so that bullets could shoot missiles like bullets can hit grenades. As of right now, the only real counter to AV is to A) kill the AV dudes or B) disengage and hide. Or passive modules that increase lock on time/lower scan profile. Preferably both. Maybe infantry ECM weapons that could **** up the technical aspects of other player's gear? Screws up lock-ons, scanners, the seek function of AV-grenades and maybe even whatever causes them to be able to only explode on vehicles. Cancels out remote detonation of space-C4. that sort of thing. AV players also need to realise how useful scaring off a tank can be, forcing it to disengage while it's reps fix it and cool down can cause it to stay out for a minute or minute and a half depending on the tank. The key trick to keeping a tank alive is to disengage and GTFO at the first sign of a swarm taking out a chunk of your shields or health. Then you could add a tracking beacon/weapon/something that counteract that ECM to an extent. EG, if another player eats an equipment slot to use a laser designator to constantly paint the tank for another player's swarms to lock on to it.
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 126	Posted - 2013.04.08 22:00:00 - [10] - Quote 1. swarms do absolutely nothing to a tank, unless the entire team is running them 2. While a tanker will only lose one tank, the proto fitter can easily lose 3 or four dropsuits, even to militia gear if they get lucky. 3. If someone with AV nades gets to close, your doing something wrong. They have no range. 4. AV guys are almost completely susceptible to regular infantry. Get some guys following you and you'll be fine.

Charizard Zakalwe Immobile Infantry 19	Posted - 2013.04.08 23:01:00 - [11] - Quote slypie11 wrote: 1. swarms do absolutely nothing to a tank, unless the entire team is running them 2. While a tanker will only lose one tank, the proto fitter can easily lose 3 or four dropsuits, even to militia gear if they get lucky. 3. If someone with AV nades gets to close, your doing something wrong. They have no range. 4. AV guys are almost completely susceptible to regular infantry. Get some guys following you and you'll be fine. You must be really bad at swarms launchers
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 128	Posted - 2013.04.08 23:20:00 - [12] - Quote Charizard Zakalwe wrote: slypie11 wrote: 1. swarms do absolutely nothing to a tank, unless the entire team is running them 2. While a tanker will only lose one tank, the proto fitter can easily lose 3 or four dropsuits, even to militia gear if they get lucky. 3. If someone with AV nades gets to close, your doing something wrong. They have no range. 4. AV guys are almost completely susceptible to regular infantry. Get some guys following you and you'll be fine. You must be really bad at swarms launchers You must be really bad at tanks
Den-tredje Baron The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 0	Posted - 2013.04.08 23:39:00 - [13] - Quote slypie11 wrote: 1. swarms do absolutely nothing to a tank, unless the entire team is running them 2. While a tanker will only lose one tank, the proto fitter can easily lose 3 or four dropsuits, even to militia gear if they get lucky. 3. If someone with AV nades gets to close, your doing something wrong. They have no range. 4. AV guys are almost completely susceptible to regular infantry. Get some guys following you and you'll be fine. What swarms do you use ??? Those that fire air at the tank ?? Ohh yeah and seen as the tanker in this case is only specced into tanks his best way of making isk and getting kills is to drop in a new one when the first is destroyed..... And right now militia forge guns and Level 1 AV grenades can easily take down even a proto tank that's doing everything right -.- So when people actually skill into stuff like the higher tier swarm launchers, assault forge gun and packed AV grenades it's only gonna kill the tank faster ..... So either buff tanks again so epople need to spec more into higher AV stuff, or nerf it as above mentioned
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 39	Posted - 2013.04.08 23:57:00 - [14] - Quote learn to use cover and hide out behind your infantry, just because your in a tank doesnt make you invincible. think about ways you can overcome the problem of being easily destroyed rather than wishing you wernt so easily destroyed. and as with eve remember, the second you bring it on the field consider it blown up in a glorious explosion.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS 19	Posted - 2013.04.09 00:04:00 - [15] - Quote All I got from you're post is "I'm paying more money so I should automatically win every time and never lose a tank".
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 784	Posted - 2013.04.09 00:34:00 - [16] - Quote Den-tredje Baron wrote: And right now militia forge guns and Level 1 AV grenades can easily take down even a proto tank Bullshit. Grenades require grenade spam, which requires a nanohive and that the player stay in 1 area, so where was your infantry? Swarms require at least 2 people, if not more, assuming the tank isn't complete ****, and if a whol;e teams goes Av against a proto tank, then here was your infantry? And yeah, bringing in a tank into a match usually offers very little reward to the owner, but it does greatly help their team. Whether it's teammates that you saved because your tank was on the field, people that you killed with the tank, or people who's death you indirectly caused.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 785	Posted - 2013.04.09 00:47:00 - [17] - Quote For the record my Av Fits costs about 75.k, my type-II costs 60. So if you kill me, or any of my teammates with similarly valued gear, between 10-15 times then you've already caused us the same amount of monetary damage that we caused you by blowing up your tank. You don't even have to kill me directly. Maybe I got killed by your infatry while shooting at your tank? Maybe my entire team got corralled into some corner of Manus Peak because we're trying hide from your tank?
Tiberion Deci Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 21	Posted - 2013.04.09 00:58:00 - [18] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: ...if you kill me, or any of my teammates with similarly valued gear [60-75k], between 10-15 times then you've already caused us the same amount of monetary damage that we caused you by blowing up your tank. You don't even have to kill me directly. Maybe I got killed by your infatry while shooting at your tank? Maybe my entire team got corralled into some corner of Manus Peak because we're trying hide from your tank? So many times this. Tanks don't need to get 20 kills to be effective. they can corral the enemy team into an extremely disadvantageous part of the map and let their infantry mop up bad guys and be just as effective. The are a couple other things you need to think about too. Even a Militia tank can take a couple shots (2-3) from me in my AV fit (assault forge gun, 2 cplx damage mods) before exploding. If i get hit once by a rail tank or a missile tank, or get caught by a blaster tank for over 2 seconds I'm dead. And any tank has a higher mobility than any heavy on the field, most advanced or higher- level tanks retreat after I put 2 shots into their shield and then come back at full health and well I've got to try again. And since this is a squad based game, you have to remember that tanks, while however strong they may be are not invincible. They require infantry support, as to the AV players trying to take down the tank. And the AV are a much greater disadvantage against enemy infantry than any tank. I personally think tanks are fine how they are, if not a little OP (but that may be the game where the enemy team had 3 Gunloggis on the field at once talking). Chances Ghost wrote: and as with eve remember, the second you bring it on the field consider it blown up in a glorious explosion. Also this. There is nothing sweeter than blowing up an expensive enemy tank and imagining imagining the tears generated by said tank destruction.
Covert Clay Red Star. EoN. 4	Posted - 2013.04.09 01:28:00 - [19] - Quote Can we at least agree that swarms are absurd? I mean the things require no real skill to use, the lock on and tracking is a complete and utter joke, and best of all, EVERYONE GET 1! Now you could argue this or that but 1 thing is the same GÇö you don't know if its a proto swarm or a regular swarm until after it hits you.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 787	Posted - 2013.04.09 02:02:00 - [20] - Quote Covert Clay wrote: Can we at least agree that swarms are absurd? I mean the things require no real skill to use, the lock on and tracking is a complete and utter joke, and best of all, EVERYONE GET 1! Now you could argue this or that but 1 thing is the You're right the tracking is a joke, I'm not sure why the stupid things insist on running into the terrain. Covert Clay wrote: same GÇö you don't know if its a proto swarm or a regular swarm until after it hits you. Sure I guess, if you can't count... Proto Swarms launch 6 missiles BTW Have you ever stood right next to a tank wondering why the hell you have to lock-on in order to shoot the damn thing? I do it all the time. But you're right, it takes no skill to fire the things, surviving before and after firing them is what takes skill.

Covert Clay Red Star. EoN. 4	Posted - 2013.04.09 02:10:00 - [21] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Covert Clay wrote: Can we at least agree that swarms are absurd? I mean the things require no real skill to use, the lock on and tracking is a complete and utter joke, and best of all, EVERYONE GET 1! Now you could argue this or that but 1 thing is the You're right the tracking is a joke, I'm not sure why the stupid things insist on running into the terrain. Have you ever stood right next to a tank wondering why the hell you have to lock-on in order to shoot the damn thing? I do it all the time. The tracking is a blessing and a curse. Covert Clay wrote: same GÇö you don't know if its a proto swarm or a regular swarm until after it hits you. Sure I guess, if you can't count... Proto Swarms launch 6 missiles BTW But you're right, it takes no skill to fire the things, surviving before and after firing them is what takes skill. Dust has an amazing player base, you know.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 787	Posted - 2013.04.09 02:13:00 - [22] - Quote Indeed.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2407	Posted - 2013.04.09 03:23:00 - [23] - Quote When someone in Advanced or Prototype infantry fittings is complaining that they keep gong negative, what do people tell them? ... Oh yeah! I remember... "don't use what you can't afford to lose" and "use a cheaper fit" and "if you can't afford it, you're doing it wrong". Same rules apply here. When I bring a tank into battle, it's usually a Sica, and it usually costs less than 300,000 ISK if it dies. I'm pretty squishy, but not as bad as most people expect from Militia tanks. If it's something important, or if I know my team's in a good position to provide me with infantry support, or if I decide I really want to turn a close game around, I'll bring something better. But usually, it's a Sica, and it does pretty well. If I average a tank death every 2 games, I'm still making a profit. If I lose tanks 3 - 4 games in a row, I play a few games where I don't call in a tank, and make up the cost with ISK to spare.


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