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[Request] Passive Shield Resistance Amplifiers Apply to All Shields

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0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 201	Posted - 2013.04.08 05:53:00 - [1] - Quote Hi! So I heard that passive shield resist mods (increase damage resistance of the vehicle's shields) only work on the hull of the tank, and not any extra shield. A Sica's base HP is 2,000. If I put 1,000 of shield extenders on the sica, a 10% dmg resist mod will only work on the 2,000 base HP of the sica, and not the extra 1,000 from the shield extenders. My request is that it works for all 3,000 HP of shield! Here are some various tests I have done. I have no idea how the current system works. For this set of tests, I had Nova hit my tank with one shot from a MLT forge gun. I had three tanks, and he took two shots at all of them once they were at full HP. Sica: 2499 Base HP, no shield extenders 1295 damage (no resist mod) 1141 damage (10% resist mod) So that's more like 12% damage reduction @_@ Sica: 6394 HP, 1x Heavy Supplemental Shield Extender (1710 HP), 1x Heavy Azeotropic Ward Shield Extender (2185 HP) 1166 damage (10% resist mod) That's 10% (I should have done the same build, but no resist mod here >.<) Here's what I got on an alt: Skills: Shield Control: L2 (10%) Build without hardeners: Sica Militia Heavy Shield Extender Blueprint - 1140 HP Militia Shield Booster Blueprint Militia Powergrid Expansion Unit Blueprint Militia Powergrid Expansion Unit Blueprint Base Shield: 2,000 Base Shield (with control): 2,199 (lol ccp math) Extender: 1140 HP Total Shield: 3339 HP Build with hardeners: Sica Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier Militia Heavy Shield Extender Blueprint Militia Shield Booster Blueprint Militia Powergrid Expansion Unit Blueprint Militia Powergrid Expansion Unit Blueprint Base Shield: 2,000 Base Shield (with control): 2,199 (lol ccp math) Extender: 1140 HP Total Shield: 3339 HP Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier: 10% Shield Damage Reduction (passive) I let a large railgun turret attack my sica. Build without hardeners after one shot: 2011 2011 2011 2011 Build with hardeners after one shot: 2143 2143 2143 2143 3339 - 2011 = 1,328 damage per shot with 10% resistance: 1328*0.9 = 1195.2 damage per shot 3339 - 2143 = 1196 So that all seems right, but when more shield extenders are added... This is with shield extenders and one 10% passive resist mod. These are super rough #s because I couldn't test it easily. What I did was let the railgun hit me, record that value, then let the railgun hit me again and record the new value. The timing between shots did not seem to be consistent, and one time it even missed. My shield did partially recharge between shots, but if it is a 10% reduction in damage taken, I should be taking 1196 damage every time, right? With the recharge it should most certainly not show up with damage any higher than 1196 dmg/shot. 6094 4828 --1266 (NPC railgun missed because I am godlike???) 2894 1756 -- 1138 610 -- 1146 ------------ test 2 ---------------- 5379 3997 -- 1382 2644 -- 1357 1498 -- 1146 Just rough numbers o_o I have no idea what is going on. I should do more tests, but I am poor and I do not want to waste ISK. I am trying to see if I can get a dev comment on what is going on ^_^
ladwar Dead Six Initiative 96	Posted - 2013.04.08 06:57:00 - [2] - Quote im going to take a wild guess he didn't hit the same spot every time... IE some were weak spot on the tank... the back, between the tracks, turret base(yup its a weak spot) ect. btw had plenty of noob test the mods with swarm launchers and seen the extenders are cover by the hardeners/resist mods
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 201	Posted - 2013.04.08 07:09:00 - [3] - Quote ladwar wrote: im going to take a wild guess he didn't hit the same spot every time Well, your wild guess is wildly wrong... lol edit: <[]_Try_Harder> i need more tests to fully do it, but i wasted plenty of isk already :P <[]_Try_Harder> i tested vs NPC railgun with diff fits on an alt yesterday <[]_Try_Harder> but need to do a all shield extender vs npc turret 1x hit <[]_Try_Harder> w resist and w/o <[]_Try_Harder> should have asked you to hit a sica with full extenders and no passive <[]_Try_Harder> but w/e :P from irc. You can do some tests too lad, but you need to show numbers and how you got them please ^.^
ladwar Dead Six Initiative 96	Posted - 2013.04.08 07:14:00 - [4] - Quote there are weak spot around the turret which on tanks is pretty hard to miss. i have not seen a difference in damage when im near dead on shields and i been using it alot recently.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 201	Posted - 2013.04.08 07:17:00 - [5] - Quote post numbers... lol if you want to test, go test!
ladwar Dead Six Initiative 96	Posted - 2013.04.08 07:43:00 - [6] - Quote i did missiles today... which was costly. 700k isk a tank sucks to keep in stock but w/e cheaper then the higher end tanks.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 37	Posted - 2013.04.08 09:22:00 - [7] - Quote a few factors you have missed Tanks have natural resists, wich if you were doing math on how much damage should have been applyed it would give you a number you diddnt expect to get (aka you have emp/explosive/kenetic/thermal resists naturally on your tank that we dont know exactly how much resistance we get out of) Damage calculation is tricky, we have no idea how much damage any one weapon is supposed to put out before resistances are applyed, this mean we cant actually calculate how much damage is being resisted. this is due to us not knowing the exact formulas and numbers used in the damage process as well as their being several broken mechanics in play at the moment. weapons in general are hitting tanks harder than they should be (math wise) with or without resistances Weak spots someone else already pointed out. we currently do not have the ability to eliminate enough variables to be sure that resistances only work on the hull. BUT the framework of this games skills/mods/fittings/ damage application and all that math is all based off EVE Online. and in EVE thats simply not the way resistances are done Also theres a few wrong assumtions in your logic. Resistances arnt applyed to shields at all, ever. EVER resistances are applyed to damage and never actually interact with your shields math wise in any way. (outside of calculating your fittings EHP wich the game itself does not do) resistances do not effect shields in any way whatsoever, they do not interact with them, they do not add anything to them, and they certainly dont differentiate between hull and extenders. They reduce damage of the weapon thats shooting at you before damage is applyed. Your damage resistance only ever interacts with the weapon damage of the gun shooting you and programming wise have absolutly NOTHING to do with your shields ( outside of redusing the amount of damage that the gun does BEFORE it gets taken out of your TOTAL health.)
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:00:00 - [8] - Quote Shields and armor have different resistances. A possibility could be that the shield extenders are considered a shield outside of the shield on the vehicle itself. We know there are some differences already because shield control works on the base shield of the vehicle, but not on the total shield (ie not on the shield from shield extenders.) It's hard to get specific damage numbers, but one weapon fired by one guy/thing in one match should do the same damage to a vehicle with shield resist mods or without. I can't say for certain, but it looks like the passive damage reduction only affects the hull of the vehicle. So once the shield from the shield extenders is depleted, the damage reduction kicks in and reduces damage the weapons deal. For the test with Nova, I had him use a forge gun on one tank with no resist mod and no shield extenders. The second test was him hitting the same type of vehicle with a resist mod and no shield extenders. The third was the same type of tank with enough shield extenders so that one shot would not hit a value close to the base shield of the vehicle. It also had one resist mod. If the shield extenders are affected by the resist mod, his forge gun should do the same amount of damage to the same vehicle with shield extenders or not. Like I said, I should have done one more test which is hitting a vehicle with the same amount of shield from shield extenders but no resist mod. There is a possibility that the resistance from the hull of the vehicle (if there is some) works the way shield control does- ie only affects the hull. The shield resist mod might work on the total value of the shield, but I was noticing a difference between shield extenders and no shield extenders because of this. Either way, it is something that should be looked at or tested more, but I do not assume that the same resistances are applied equally to the entire shield, just like shield control does not increase the entire amount of shield on a vehicle. There are a number of possibilities. It could also affect the dmg reduction in different ways. The shield has a natural resistance to explosive damage. To make it easy, let's say explosives do 50% dmg to a shield. A 10% mod could make that damage 40%, or it could make it 45% If you want to, you can do some tests and provide some numbers too. Anything without numbers is just speculation.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 833	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:17:00 - [9] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: If the shield extenders are affected by the resist mod, his forge gun should do the same amount of damage to the same vehicle with shield extenders or not. This is not flawed logic. If you ever need any help, hit up me or my associates. Here's my business card. I also want to do a thorough investigation into the Large Railgun turrets vs. Small railgun turrets but would need a controlled environment.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 38	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:34:00 - [10] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Anything without numbers is just speculation. Its not speculation, its literally how the game is programmed Damage resistance isnt applyed to your shields ever, not once, not ever in any of the steps in the programming Damage reduction is applyed to damage BEFORE it hits your shields for it to be applyed to the shields it would have to follow the following flow gun fires damage bonuses from skills are applyed to weapon damage hit detection your tanks shields are calculated yoru tanks EHP is calculated damage is applyed to EHP EHP is reverse engineered back into its face value shield amounts (not easy) How its ACTUALLY DONE gun fires damage bonuses from skills are applyed to damage hit detection damage reduction of the target reduces weapon damage hit points deducted ask me wich one is easyer and wich one is currently the method used in EVE online.

Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 835	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:43:00 - [11] - Quote Chances Ghost wrote: Damage resistance isnt applyed to your shields ever, not once, not ever in any of the steps in the programming Care to explain why shield resistance amplifiers stop working once your shields are gone? Or why armor hardeners only reduce damage dealt to Armor?
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 205	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:57:00 - [12] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: Damage resistance isnt applyed to your shields ever, not once, not ever in any of the steps in the programming Care to explain why shield resistance amplifiers stop working once your shields are gone? Or why armor hardeners only reduce damage dealt to Armor? Simple. The system checks to see if there is shield. Is there shield? If yes, apply shield resistance. If no, apply armor resistance.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 38	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:26:00 - [13] - Quote it can be broken down even more to explain that player shoots target and hits the targets stats (shield/armor/resists of all types) are then giving to a damage calc process to calculate how much damage is done first it would calculate the weapons damage taking into account skills/weapon/damage mods then if the target had shields (it was giving this information when hit) it would then reduce the damage of the shot by the shield resists and all other reduction. if this amount was greater than the amount of remaining shields it would then take the remaining leftover damage and remove the resistance penalties (int he case of 10% shield reduction it would simply multiply the remaining damage by 10%) then the leftover damage would then be reduced by the targets armor resists (if it had armor left) int eh same manor as it did for the shields No damage has actually been done to the tank yet after all that is done it would tell the tank how much damage to its shields and armor has been done and it would reduce its health accordingly
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:36:00 - [14] - Quote Ya, I can test stuff with you later tonight (Eastern Standard Time) if you are on. I have all the small turrets, prof 2 in them, and all the large hybrid with pro 5. I thought it was just check for shield, if shield then... but if armor then... but it could be an additional step: so > check to see if it is shield, if so then... > check to see if it is base value (hull) shield, if so then... > check to see if it is armor, if so then... It might explain why I only saw a difference when the damage was less than the amount of shield from my shield extenders. I was curious as to why the NPC railgun tests saw no difference between adding 1k shield or not, but this might explain it. It could just use the if it dmgs the base value, then the damage reduction is applied from that lvl. Trying to think of a better way to explain, but: We know that resistances are applied differently between armor and shield. So there is some calculation between hit detection and applying resistances, because it has to know what the resistance is. It might be apply damage, apply resistance to reduce the damage, then subtract HP. Let's say shield extenders have no resistance, but the hull does. I have 5,000 in shield extenders, and 2,500 damage is done: > resistances are applied, stored in variables (ie armor, shield, shield ext) > ehp is calculated < apply skills/whatever to get 2,500 damage in one shot < apply skills/whatever to get damage type <> hit detection > ehp type is pulled (shield) > 2,500 dmg is increased/decreased by type (so shield ehp and explosive dmg is calculated and stored) > subtract new damage # from ehp > pull resistance variable of ehp > reduce new damage by the resistance variable > calculate ehp from original ehp minus the modified damage It would explain a lot. For instance, if I take a scrambler pistol and aim it at a scout's head with 1hp of shield, I will see the tooltip read "450% dmg" So that calculation might be done first. If I have resist mods on a tank and I point a hybrid weapon at it, it always reads 99 or 100% even though resistance is applied at some point. It would also explain why I didn't see a difference in damage done with the NPC turret when I only had a 1k shield extender on. The reduction was calculated off of the hull's shield reduction value instead of the shield extender's resistance value. We know that the hull has a different value than total ehp when calculations are made to it in advance. Shield control (or skills) are applied first to the base value, and are not included in the total EHP calculation. If the resistance mods are like shield control, they could be calculated at the same time, instead of applied after the vehicle is on the field. So all speculation, I have no idea how it is done (I've done coding, but I have never made a FPS game with collisions and the like.) Anyways, more testing or maybe an answer from CCP would be nice ^.^ We know there are a ton of calculations that are done and applied. It might explain why there's some trouble with hit detection, and why it gets better when you've been pointing at the target for a bit. It also might explain why slow RoF weapons seem to have better hit detection, and the high RoF weapons have the worst. If multiple calculations have to be done quickly, that's a lot of stuff, and some might get >.< if there's any kind of lag at all. edit: oh yah, I forgot stuff like max range/max effective range/critical hit damage modifiers must be applied too!
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:38:00 - [15] - Quote ah, chance posted before i did ^_^ Anyways, yes, there are a crazy # of calculations. It would have some big implications on armor too. We can test what damage is done when the shot goes into armor, and what resistances (if any) are applied to it.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 39	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:39:00 - [16] - Quote the game at no point calculates your tanks EHP thats just math we as players do
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:40:00 - [17] - Quote Chances Ghost wrote: the game at no point calculates your tanks EHP thats just math we as players do yah sorry, wrong term, I meant HP lol will edit.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:44:00 - [18] - Quote Anyways chance, you seem to be missing one key thing. From the testing, it appears as though the resistances might be different between shield extenders and no shield extenders. When I had high shield extenders, I took more damage. No/low shield extenders, I took less damage. If you can do some tests and show that this is not true, then please put the numbers and how you did them here. Although I tested how much the damage was reduced by, I did not do a good test to find out if it is actually a resistance in the hull vs shield extenders, or if the mod is diff for both.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 39	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:47:00 - [19] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: the game at no point calculates your tanks EHP thats just math we as players do yah sorry, wrong term, I meant HP lol will edit. haha no worries, and yah i just assumed things like effective range were being done, basically anything that modifys the weapons damage is included in both our methods, were just simply trying to determine the order and what factors it considers in EVE the damage model follows how i stated though, and since this game uses literally everything possible from eve including the types of modules and how they interact with each other and skills. there would be no reason to use almost all the programing from eve but change that one little thing in an extremely complicated way that adds no function
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:48:00 - [20] - Quote Right now we need more data. We can get it from testing or from CCP, but like I said earlier it is all speculation at this point.

Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 39	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:49:00 - [21] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Right now we need more data. We can get it from testing or from CCP, but like I said earlier it is all speculation at this point. we have EVE, its a carbon copy. and how i stated is how damage is done in eve
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:52:00 - [22] - Quote I don't expect CCP to tell us exactly how everything is done, but it would be nice to know if the passive shield resistance mods work on the entire shield or just the hull :P It would also be nice to know how the damage is calculated when it goes from shield to armor. I don't know if someone has done that already.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:54:00 - [23] - Quote Chances Ghost wrote: 0 Try Harder wrote: Right now we need more data. We can get it from testing or from CCP, but like I said earlier it is all speculation at this point. we have EVE, its a carbon copy. and how i stated is how damage is done in eve Can they really just copy and paste the code? O_O Don't you have to do stuff like lock on to targets first too? From what I've seen in videos and everything, it looks like people target stuff by clicking on them. It doesn't look like they can just shoot and hit whatever is in front of them.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 39	Posted - 2013.04.08 21:58:00 - [24] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: 0 Try Harder wrote: Right now we need more data. We can get it from testing or from CCP, but like I said earlier it is all speculation at this point. we have EVE, its a carbon copy. and how i stated is how damage is done in eve Can they really just copy and paste the code? O_O Don't you have to do stuff like lock on to targets first too? From what I've seen in videos and everything, it looks like people target stuff by clicking on them. It doesn't look like they can just shoot and hit whatever is in front of them. its not a copy paste as different programming languages are used. but they use the exact same flow chart for everything. from skills, to mods, training modifyers, its all identicle to EVE why re-invent damage calculation when you have an optimised process for doing it youve been perfecting for the last 10 years?
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 39	Posted - 2013.04.08 22:04:00 - [25] - Quote i have one test that will veryify weather its a bug changing the amount of damage or weather the resistances are only effecting the hull how much damage does a gunlogi with 2 shield extenders 2 passive resists at the following points >2600 shields <2600 shields do the same test but remove passive resists, this way the tank has exactly the same number of shield/armor hit points i currently dont have a way to create safe variable free test envoronments instead of calulating resisted damage you just compair the results if what your saying is true both tanks should have the exact same <2600 damage taken and different >2600 damage taken if what im saying is true then the tanks themselves will take different damage than each other
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 202	Posted - 2013.04.08 22:43:00 - [26] - Quote Chances Ghost wrote: why re-invent damage calculation when you have an optimised process for doing it youve been perfecting for the last 10 years? Maybe that is part of the problem. The DUST514 devs have been told/are trying to make a system that took ten years to develop in a DUST514 in only a few years. It might explain why it took so long to fix stacking penalties. If there are a ton of calculations going on in DUST that are not happening in other FPS games between one user and the hitbox of another, that could be a reason why DUST is having hit detection problems, and why it has been so hard to fix. Adding even more calculations would be >.< From what I know of, there are no resistance mods for infantry. Just shield/armor and hybrid/explosive/energy damage types. I know it's going to make some cringe, but I'd prefer a simpler system for now if the devs think it will made hit detection better. I heard someone say that EVE slows down when there are large battles going on. Slowing a FPS game down to that level does not work. And think of every FPS game you've ever played? Dust goes far beyond any that I know of in terms of changing the stats on individual armor and weapons. Quake, UT, RTCW, CS and the like... all of the gun damage values and hp and the like are set values. The system doesn't need to calculate much of anything in terms of mods and what people are using. edit: ya, I can test with you later tonight.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 39	Posted - 2013.04.08 22:46:00 - [27] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: edit: ya, I can test with you later tonight. i have everything ready just bring the militia forge gun haha
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 203	Posted - 2013.04.09 05:14:00 - [28] - Quote i got to sleep, sorry >.< just wanted to get some SP in tonight, sorry, maybe tomorrow or something >.< I'll send you mail, or I can just make a channel or something so you can see when I'm on.


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