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Why PVE needs to be used to make Bad Players Good

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Icy Xenosmilus Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:12:00 - [1] - Quote There have been many issues surrounding PvE. Some want a substantial reward, others want to have it merely to pass time. I believe that PvE should be used to help the poor catch up to or close to the rich (in SP). This carries over from Steady hand's topic on how Dust is useless once you fall behind a certain medium. Therefore, if a player hasn't played for months he should be able to get back on his feet through PvE. I propose that PvE reward an amount of SP in accordance to the total SP attainable by the player who has capped out every week (without boosters). This reward percentage would decrease as you approach the total SP, similar to the diminishing returns mechanic from old. Yes, it's a pretty weak concept at the moment, but I believe that if explored, this may be a viable option to letting PRO's keep up with the rest.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:19:00 - [2] - Quote I don't believe in biasing things towards new players. It's New Eden, it's adapt or die. PvE should be the place for you to be able to get used to the game mechanics, yes, but not somewhere where you should be able to catch up SP-wise. I'm 4-5m SP behind most of the decent players, perhaps 2-3m behind most players, but I'm still holding my own. It's more a case of get good than grind more.
Icy Xenosmilus Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:20:00 - [3] - Quote Laheon wrote: I don't believe in biasing things towards new players. It's New Eden, it's adapt or die. PvE should be the place for you to be able to get used to the game mechanics, yes, but not somewhere where you should be able to catch up SP-wise. I'm 4-5m SP behind most of the decent players, perhaps 2-3m behind most players, but I'm still holding my own. It's more a case of get good than grind more. But when you have people like TeamPlayers rolling out a full squad of protostacked players, against noobs in militia, it's kind of bad.
Rifter7 Improvise. 174	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:42:00 - [4] - Quote nah.. have pve a different beast. i'd like to see skillpoints and loadouts that are less useful in pvp be viable in pve. and the rewards should be on par with what was accomplished. don't make it something that everyone does in order to cap out for the week tho, have them on par for skillpoints gained so you're playing a mode because that's what you enjoy.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:47:00 - [5] - Quote Icy, I've been put against Grupo de Assalto a few matches in a row. I got very frustrated, because my team were useless and not defending the points we'd taken. I did well, by myself, but it's not particularly that the rest of my team were bad that we lost. It's that they didn't work as a team. That's the best way they're going to learn tactics. Tactics >>>>> gear. Gear helps, but if you have a second guy standing at your shoulder firing at the same enemy, chances are that enemy, no matter what the difference in gear is, is going to die first.
Soldier of Mawat Amat Al'Mawat Militia 26	Posted - 2013.04.01 01:02:00 - [6] - Quote How about if SP is going to be earned in pve, the amount earned should be less than the average ambush match. In MAG there was an optional training mission available to new players that when completed, a small amount of xp was awarded. The amount was small but it was a smart thing to do because it gave just that little bit of extra points to spend on skills. If the SP given was kept low, then there could be a small incentive for newberries to play so that they can learn the game mechanics and not have to worry about pubstomps. At the same time the small amount of SP might deter vets from trying to farm since it would take double or even triple the amount of time to earn the same amount of SP as a couple rounds of ambush.
Thumb Green THE STAR BORN 46	Posted - 2013.04.01 01:15:00 - [7] - Quote Laheon wrote: I don't believe in biasing things towards new players. It's New Eden, it's adapt or die. Or hide in HighSec.
Sobriety Denied FIREFLY ATLANTIS ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED TACNET 521	Posted - 2013.04.01 01:18:00 - [8] - Quote they will be easy kills in expensive suits grinding PvE all day
BASSMEANT ZionTCD Legacy Rising 187	Posted - 2013.04.01 13:54:00 - [9] - Quote 1. you want to reward players for being less capable? 2. how is that going to stop the clans from going in there and doing even better then the bad players at it? now you have taken away their cap and they will do better at pve then the casual, thereby maintaining the gap. 3. the problem lies between the chair and the controller. not the controller and the server. 4. playing against ai won't make you better. you'll just be capable of playing against ai. you guys are wiggling pretty hard not to have to play this game and still level up somehow. take your lumps, put on your default suits and earn your way up just like everyone else. god you guys are soft Peace B
Cody Sietz The Tritan Industries 68	Posted - 2013.04.01 13:59:00 - [10] - Quote Laheon wrote: I don't believe in biasing things towards new players. It's New Eden, it's adapt or die. PvE should be the place for you to be able to get used to the game mechanics, yes, but not somewhere where you should be able to catch up SP-wise. I'm 4-5m SP behind most of the decent players, perhaps 2-3m behind most players, but I'm still holding my own. It's more a case of get good than grind more. I agree, but we need to allow newer players to at least compete. Maybe give them unlimited sp gain up to 3-4 million sp. This way they can get to a point where are effective.

OgTheEnigma Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 97	Posted - 2013.04.01 14:33:00 - [11] - Quote Soldier of Mawat wrote: How about if SP is going to be earned in pve, the amount earned should be less than the average ambush match. In MAG there was an optional training mission available to new players that when completed, a small amount of xp was awarded. The amount was small but it was a smart thing to do because it gave just that little bit of extra points to spend on skills. If the SP given was kept low, then there could be a small incentive for newberries to play so that they can learn the game mechanics and not have to worry about pubstomps. At the same time the small amount of SP might deter vets from trying to farm since it would take double or even triple the amount of time to earn the same amount of SP as a couple rounds of ambush. I think the SP and ISK rewarded should depend on the difficulty of the PvE mode. So there could be a nice and easy version of drone defence which is suitable for beginner players in militia gear. There could be progressive levels of difficulties with more powerful drones. At the highest level you would need skilled players in advanced or proto gear to stand a chance of succeeding, but they would be rewarded accordingly if they clear the infestation.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3317	Posted - 2013.04.01 14:38:00 - [12] - Quote I have never seen PVE improve anyone's PVP game in any game.
Soldiersaint Reaper Galactic 7	Posted - 2013.04.01 14:44:00 - [13] - Quote Do you guys realize that some of use cant wait for pve because that means we wont have to play pvp anymore? Once pve comes out i wont be touching pvp anymore simply because of all the annoying people and tryhards co-op can be just as fun if not better than any competetive mode. of course this is my opinion.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 891	Posted - 2013.04.01 14:46:00 - [14] - Quote Icy Xenosmilus wrote: There have been many issues surrounding PvE. Some want a substantial reward, others want to have it merely to pass time. I believe that PvE should be used to help the poor catch up to or close to the rich (in SP). This carries over from Steady hand's topic on how Dust is useless once you fall behind a certain medium. Therefore, if a player hasn't played for months he should be able to get back on his feet through PvE. I propose that PvE reward an amount of SP in accordance to the total SP attainable by the player who has capped out every week (without boosters). This reward percentage would decrease as you approach the total SP, similar to the diminishing returns mechanic from old. Yes, it's a pretty weak concept at the moment, but I believe that if explored, this may be a viable option to letting PRO's keep up with the rest. PVe is not the same as playing skilled players. The only way you will get good is by playing good players.
Soldiersaint Reaper Galactic 7	Posted - 2013.04.01 14:48:00 - [15] - Quote I also forgot to mention that some of us dont even care about pvp. we only play because thats all they have at the moment. also dont tell me that pvp is the main point of this game because as far as i know if we dont play pve bad things could happen to pvpers and im all for it
Kam Elto KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 10	Posted - 2013.04.01 14:48:00 - [16] - Quote there is an infinite amount of SP that you can gain. there is a finite amount of SP that you can allocate to a specific role. therefor a new player CAN catch up to a veteran player in their chosen role. it will just require some effort, learning and grinding.
Kazeno Rannaa Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 156	Posted - 2013.04.01 15:00:00 - [17] - Quote For PvE, I can imagine after having the opportunity to speak to a few of the DEV's in SF last week that it may travel the same road as that which already exists in EvE. You don't have to be a PvP pro to go out and run missions. Hell, in Eve, I really like mish running. The thing is that the rewards were scaled to the security rating a person developed with particular recruiter for particular factions. This being said, the rewards for the mission running was alway more profitable in the realm of rooting out rat-nests than flowing through the rogue drones. PvE should be balanced along these same premises and more than likely in the maintenance of districts it will come up in conjunction with the PvP. Much like the districts that would go fallow in Slay. As to whether it should be a solo session kind of part to the game, I would say yes. It should be more than the training wheels for noobies. There are a lot of pilots in Eve where PvE is all they do because it makes them happy. And the NPC corps of EVE like it, and it develops factional ratings beyond what would be available in conducting pure FW or PC. And as we have heard, there will be salvage and drop rewards that will be based upon these ratings and also make available in the market certain items that will be also based upon these faction ratings. Needless to say I have to agree with my mate above, and have it be scaled to difficulty. PvE is a nice break from dealing with the pubbies and even sometimes the stronger or more abrasive personalities that exist in the PvP section of life on this game. I am personally looking forward to it so I don't have to worry about some kid making the switch from MW or BF over to Dust that doesn't seem to have trigger discipline or a basic understanding of covering a lane of fire and not chasing cranberries around the map for their beloved KDR.
TheBluBerry Deep Space Republic 4	Posted - 2013.04.01 15:39:00 - [18] - Quote I always imagined that there would be some kind of training ground for newbies, like for example a shooting range for target practice (possibly with an environment that adds a challenge to it), some kind of battle simulator where there are objectives just like in skirmish, or something just like in ambush (a sort of TDM). And yes just like it was stated above there should difficulty settings for the battle sim, and more than one person can join so that they can practice some team tactics, and sure why not have some SP gain in there after all at the end of their training they should've (the player themselves) became more skilled then they were before. Also, the fittings for the battle sims should be infinite to avoid rage on losing proto gear to some game AI, and for the lore of it have something like "In the training ground, fittings are converted to something much cheaper than regular fittings, so mercenaries can rehearse all day" something like that, and maybe have some isk in there too, you know like funding from the corps to "help you in your future endeavors". How about it?
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 270	Posted - 2013.04.01 17:49:00 - [19] - Quote My guess PVE is gonna make it so that a great part of new players are never gonna learn pvp (normal Dust we are playing as of now). Our current newcomers are learning the game thru pvp, they are using cheap fits etc. They are learning from the very first game. Imagine people grinding PVE and gaining wealth and equipment. How is it going for them, entering game with no dust pvp experience at all? While wearing moderately to very expensive gear which they've worked some time on? They are not gonna love that, that's for sure.
BASSMEANT ZionTCD Legacy Rising 188	Posted - 2013.04.01 20:14:00 - [20] - Quote "Also, the fittings for the battle sims should be infinite to avoid rage on losing proto gear to some game AI" wtf???? Peace B

TheBluBerry Deep Space Republic 4	Posted - 2013.04.03 04:31:00 - [21] - Quote BASSMEANT wrote: "Also, the fittings for the battle sims should be infinite to avoid rage on losing proto gear to some game AI" wtf???? Peace B I meant that players want to invest lots of SP and ISK into gear so that when they get to a pvp match they can kick* and make their investment worthwhile. If they're going to lose all of those SP, ISK, and time investments to a feature that doesn't give much back in terms of SP and ISK (which is what most people here are suggesting that it shouldn't), then I don't think they're going to be too happy about. And then guess what happens? More rage on the forums and people saying "PVE F** sucks" and "CCP has to f**** do something about pve". You see where I'm going with this?
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 750	Posted - 2013.04.03 04:35:00 - [22] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have never seen PVE improve anyone's PVP game in any game. I practice ripostes and backstabs on mooks in Dark Souls, or forest Gankers, they're pretty much the same thing.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 60	Posted - 2013.04.03 12:23:00 - [23] - Quote TheBluBerry wrote: BASSMEANT wrote: "Also, the fittings for the battle sims should be infinite to avoid rage on losing proto gear to some game AI" wtf???? Peace B I meant that players want to invest lots of SP and ISK into gear so that when they get to a pvp match they can kick* and make their investment worthwhile. If they're going to lose all of those SP, ISK, and time investments to a feature that doesn't give much back in terms of SP and ISK (which is what most people here are suggesting that it shouldn't), then I don't think they're going to be too happy about. And then guess what happens? More rage on the forums and people saying "PVE F** sucks" and "CCP has to f**** do something about pve". You see where I'm going with this? Another suggestion that makes no sense. Again the problem is the mind set of players; the SP GRIND IS USELESS. You do realize that EvE would fail if it were not for PvE. People use very expensive ships to PvE, that is their job and that is what they like to do. Why would it be any different in DUST? If it were not for PvE then there would not be any ships, modules, ammo, stations or drugs. Who is going to produce your proto suit or weapons? You do understand what a market is right? Finally, PvE is difficult, it makes lots of ISK and it is fun. I do not understand why others fear of PvE or how it will affect your game or DUST as a whole.
Chojine Dentetsu Academy Inferno 5	Posted - 2013.04.03 12:33:00 - [24] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Laheon wrote: I don't believe in biasing things towards new players. It's New Eden, it's adapt or die. PvE should be the place for you to be able to get used to the game mechanics, yes, but not somewhere where you should be able to catch up SP-wise. I'm 4-5m SP behind most of the decent players, perhaps 2-3m behind most players, but I'm still holding my own. It's more a case of get good than grind more. I agree, but we need to allow newer players to at least compete. Maybe give them unlimited sp gain up to 3-4 million sp. This way they can get to a point where are effective. I am against this, solely because I have only been playing Dust for just under 2 months, and have been able to hold my own for most of that time. The only time the skill point difference i evident, is when someone calls in a high spec tank, and runs around in full proto gear...but more skill points won't necessarily help you counter this. People just need to get used to the game, where people like to hide and what method of attack is best against each class.
Kurachigo Yamada Assassins of Sativa 0	Posted - 2013.04.03 12:59:00 - [25] - Quote How about only rewarding PVE with ISK and some free weapons and suits depending on how well they do. That way people are more likely to play PVP to get the SP they want. Just a random thought.
Texs Red SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 17	Posted - 2013.04.03 13:16:00 - [26] - Quote There is nothing wrong with have PVE and to be honest I don't want to see it as some sort of "newbie starting place". PVE would have it's own niche to fill with rewards that positively affect the community on the whole and will be something that is a viable thing to focus on. However, that does not mean that there should not be danger. The best missions that give the greatest rewards might often take you into null sec where other plays can hop onto your game and make it more difficult. No where have I read or heard that DUST is supposed to be a solely PVP game and to be honest sometimes it would be nice if I could go to a game mode where it is a low risk/low reward just to hang out and have fun with my friends. Will it make me a better player? Maybe not but it will certainly relieve that headache I had from getting pub stomped by players rocking proto gear. In the end the game is here for our enjoyment, not just to get better at PVP therefore PVE is a must.
BASSMEANT ZionTCD Legacy Rising 191	Posted - 2013.04.03 13:47:00 - [27] - Quote who cares what the new players want? jesus. you can't play the real game against real players so you beg for ai. you haven't even GOTTEN pve yet and you guys are already figuring out how to worm out of sucking at THAT, too? "just make it so when we play pve we don't lose any gear" well hell son. why not just make it so when you log on to 514, all the players in every server just die autostyle and you get stats for it? i can hear your future: "hey boss... this work you gave me is too hard, so i'm not going to do it. but i'll sit and draw pictures of it with crayons... oh and you can't fire me and i want full pay for doing something that wasn't even remotely akin to the job i hired on for." you guys are really pathetic. if you put as much effort into actually getting better as you do into figuring out excuses as to why you shouldn't have to play the real game as is... you'd still suck. Peace B
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 61	Posted - 2013.04.03 14:36:00 - [28] - Quote BASSMEANT wrote: who cares what the new players want? jesus. you can't play the real game against real players so you beg for ai. you haven't even GOTTEN pve yet and you guys are already figuring out how to worm out of sucking at THAT, too? "just make it so when we play pve we don't lose any gear" well hell son. why not just make it so when you log on to 514, all the players in every server just die autostyle and you get stats for it? i can hear your future: "hey boss... this work you gave me is too hard, so i'm not going to do it. but i'll sit and draw pictures of it with crayons... oh and you can't fire me and i want full pay for doing something that wasn't even remotely akin to the job i hired on for." you guys are really pathetic. if you put as much effort into actually getting better as you do into figuring out excuses as to why you shouldn't have to play the real game as is... you'd still suck. Peace B I want the game as hardcore as they can make it and as diverse as they can make it. I don't want it easy or easier. I don't want the same game we have been playing for the last year and non PvE is more of the same. Why do you think it will change any part of PvP? I do fine against other players but I still want a different game type. How is PvE not a "real" game? The developers said it was going to be in the game. I want to know why so many people are against it. I will take your reply in crayons with pictures so I can understand. Maybe you can draw your answer better than you can type it.


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