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2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
295
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Posted - 2013.03.16 22:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
From a player that knows heavys well
Low level heavys need a bit of a nerf, adv and proto heavys need good buff.
#1 Armor plates and shield extenders should be a % of dropsuit base armor or shields.
How can a scout fit as much addon armor on his suit as a heavy can. Yet the slow down is % based its just assbackwards. Its like a lav fitting the same plates as a tank. Different surface area and strength and load capacity.
#2 heavy suits should gain minor health and minor base stat improvements going from mil to proto as should all suits. They should def be a little faster have slightly more stamina as should all suits
#3 they need a rework on slot capacity. No other combat suit cannot use equipment. Thus they should have lots of combat slots to work with.
Mechanics for dropsuits should stack with armor plates added, this should also apply for shield extenders for its skill that is the same as mechanics for shields.
Hell if you made these (some or all) fixes I would be fine if you took my grenade slot away from the heavy (But dont if you dont need to )
Slot count Assault suits get 7 slots and 2 equipment slots Logistics gets 8 slots and 4-3 equipment Scouts get 6 slots and 2-3 equipments slots... but lack the CPU to use them. Heavies get 5 slots (info from Sloth9230) |
Rupture Reaperson
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
52
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Posted - 2013.03.16 22:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think this is right, also a couple of thousand isk reduction on the price of proto suits would be welcomed. I mean really the dropsuit price for proto heaveis its too damn high, as a ******* kite high. |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
844
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 23:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
B- Series = 40,560 ISK ( 2 high slots, 2 low slots, 0 equipment, CPU 216 )
Proto = 246,800 ISK ( 3 high slots, 2 low slots, 0 equipment, CPU 270 )
Difference = 206,240
What Proto suits gets for the 206k: 54 more CPU, 11 more PG, 1 high slot.
______________________________
Let's compare the Assault B- Series and Proto, and see what they get for their money.
B- series = 20,680 ISK ( 3 high slots, 2 low slots, 1 equipment, CPU 231)
Proto = 91,200 ISK ( 4 high slots, 3 low slots, 2 equipment, CPU 330)
Difference = 70,520 ISK
What Proto suits get for that 70k ISK: 99 more CPU, 20 more PG, 1 high slot, 1 low slot, 1 equipment slot.
A little more fairness would be nice CCP. The price does not justify what heavies get compared to other suits. |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
666
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 00:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
My thoughts exactly. They need a buff and partial rework. Heavies are a joke when properly skilled into compared to properly skilled into suits of other classes. |
Mark Burkhart
UnReaL.
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 00:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
this post is just for fun, but if they wanna make the vk-1 cost as much as a adv tank chassis then the vk-1 sould get the same stat base as the tank for 200000+ isk like 4 highs and 4 lows.... that would justify the cost in my eyes. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
468
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 00:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
I want to be able to carry a heavy and light weapon, or at least that side arm AR Make it happen CCP! Proto heavies should come with a built in Black eagle AR.
But seriously, yeah, they need to be looked at. |
flesth
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 00:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:I want to be able to carry a heavy and light weapon, or at least that side arm AR Make it happen CCP! Proto heavies should come with a built in Black eagle AR. But seriously, yeah, they need to be looked at.
light weapon would be unfair, but AR stay with assults/AR etc, but i have to say aleast buff up some HMG not all of it, it would be unfair, so it can toe to toe with lav / tankers, is that what heavies for? |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
848
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 01:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote: One of the suggestions made is similar to a thread I posted a LONG time ago.
Each class, needs a passive skill/trait that goes up with suit level. (standard/advanced/proto) This needs to be small enough to prevent suit from being OP, but enough to give just another slight bonus to make the cost increase worthwhile.
Just random examples I made up on the fly.
ie: Scout's speed goes up by 5% from std to adv, and another 5% from adv to proto Heavy's HP goes up by 10% from std to adv, and another 10% from adv to proto Assault's scanning goes up by 5% from std to adv, and another 5% from adv to proto Logi's hacking and CPU go up by 5% from std to adv, and another 5% from adv to proto
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Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
488
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 02:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
I disagree with the assault bonus, at most I think a bonus to missile damage (with it being a caldari suit) per level, to encourage more Av players without completely changing their play style |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
594
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 02:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: #1 Armor plates and shield extenders should be a % of dropsuit base armor or shields. (info from Sloth9230)
I agree with everything but this ^.
That totally screws scouts over, the CPU/PG requirements for the % would totally make them worthless except to a heavy...just saying. I can't say much else but I know vehicle shield modules are split between light and heavy...maybe a dropsuit interpretation of that system? |
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Wojciak
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 02:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: #1 Armor plates and shield extenders should be a % of dropsuit base armor or shields. (info from Sloth9230)
I agree with everything but this ^. That totally screws scouts over, the CPU/PG requirements for the % would totally make them worthless except to a heavy...just saying. I can't say much else but I know vehicle shield modules are split between light and heavy...maybe a dropsuit interpretation of that system? i know scouts that go 1v1 against heavies with a hmg and take them out because of their shields. i think that suits should have size specific modules because it dose not seem right that a scout can have the same mods that a heavy can (like armor plates). Heaves need love as do assaults and logies, so CCP stop favoring the scout so much, |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
594
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 03:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Wojciak wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: #1 Armor plates and shield extenders should be a % of dropsuit base armor or shields. (info from Sloth9230)
I agree with everything but this ^. That totally screws scouts over, the CPU/PG requirements for the % would totally make them worthless except to a heavy...just saying. I can't say much else but I know vehicle shield modules are split between light and heavy...maybe a dropsuit interpretation of that system? i know scouts that go 1v1 against heavies with a hmg and take them out because of their shields. i think that suits should have size specific modules because it dose not seem right that a scout can have the same mods that a heavy can (like armor plates). Heaves need love as do assaults and logies, so CCP stop favoring the scout so much, Sure it does, in the end the heavy loses less speed from plates but still has more armor, as well as shields, they have two high slots right at Level 1, scouts have to get to level 3 to receive the 2 high slots. |
Kovak Therim
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
169
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 07:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
I regret only being able to like the OP once. We are supposed to be walking tanks. I'm not seeing it. If I'm facing 2 assaults and we're all equally equipped and our shots are on target, I should be able to kill one and damage the other before I get taken out. As things are now, I may not survive an encounter against one assault. I wasted money and SP on this role, but it's too late to turn back now. Hopefully CCP will salvage the heavies at some point. |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
853
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 18:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bump of justice!
Would be nice to see a dev reply in this. |
Hecarim Van Hohen
The Tritan Industries
14
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 18:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
+1 |
Fargen Icehole
SyNergy Gaming
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 00:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
+1, proto heavies need a SLIGHT buff.
I like the idea of adding passive stats to higher level suits. Seems like it makes the suits better w/o them being godly like in earlier builds where proto suits had more base HP. Also, makes players more specialists. I'd say, take it one step further. Add a slight buff to 2 stats as Lance/mikegunnz mentioned. Make one a standard for all suits in that class and make the other specific to the race that suits (when each race has its own variant) |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 15:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yeah heavies need a bit of love. I would like to see one more low slot for both protos and a price drop to the area of 120K for the vk1. |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
865
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 18:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bump of justice!
Hoping CCP sees this. |
mikegunnz
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
439
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 21:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'll give ya another free bump. I'm not a heavy, but even I see that the proto heavy is a joke. |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
441
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 02:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote:I'll give ya another free bump. I'm not a heavy, but even I see that the proto heavy is a joke.
After the reset I tried heavy + HMG and its pathetic. Both the suit and the weapon need fixes.
proto suit needs less cost, extra slots, cpu, pg. HMG is listed as CQC but its fail versus an SMG scout/assault or logi.
Anyone want Proto heavy suits??? Will trade for ten isk per suit or take them away for free OBO.
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Vir Sigvaldt
RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention
25
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Posted - 2013.03.19 02:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Personally, I laugh at militia heavies as I tear them the shreds with my Type-II heavy and advanced HMG. Or did you mean Type-I and Type-II when you said "low level heavies"?
I haven't yet reached anything beyond Type-II heavy, so I'm not in much of a position to talk on this matter. I have been noticing that it isn't that much harder to kill a proto heavy as it is to kill an advanced heavy, so I do question whether or not you are really getting your isk worth out of upgrading to prototype.
As said before, I don't have much credibility, but as someone who wanted to eventually train into the higher level heavies, I would like to see them take a second look at the cost effectiveness of heavies.
+1 |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
11
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Posted - 2013.03.25 21:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:
Low level heavys need a bit of a nerf,(info from Sloth9230)
Yes to everything you said but this. The nerfing has been done to heavies somewhere between the first build and open beta, CCP could perhaps balance them back a bit with slot layouts but I don't believe tweaking the militia heavy down would be good for anything but more deaths of low level heavies. As is it is not the most commonly used suit out there but it is the cheapest. How would you nerf something that already has foam corners?
Spruce up the module slots please CCP. Or give us armor repairers that do 5% total armor repair over a second. The Assault suit only takes ~18 seconds with 2 complex armor repairers fitted to fully recharge its armor and can move twice as quick as a heavy.
If the complex worked at 5% total armor plus the skill bonus the armor on a 850 armor hp suit would take ~17 seconds to repair to full health. It would take the same amount of time for the Assault suit as it would be based on a percentage rather than on a set amount.
Yes I am suggesting changing something other than the heavy suit itself to fix the heavy but I know that more than one of you use armor repairers too. |
Superhero Rawdon
Better Hide R Die
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 20:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:mikegunnz wrote: One of the suggestions made is similar to a thread I posted a LONG time ago.
Each class, needs a passive skill/trait that goes up with suit level. (standard/advanced/proto) This needs to be small enough to prevent suit from being OP, but enough to give just another slight bonus to make the cost increase worthwhile.
Just random examples I made up on the fly.
ie: Scout's speed goes up by 5% from std to adv, and another 5% from adv to proto Heavy's HP goes up by 10% from std to adv, and another 10% from adv to proto Assault's scanning goes up by 5% from std to adv, and another 5% from adv to proto Logi's hacking and CPU go up by 5% from std to adv, and another 5% from adv to proto
took this from the thread he posted....good idea.....having a passive skill
and a bump from a fellow heavy
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Jathniel
G I A N T
115
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 21:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Low level heavies don't need a nerf.
High level heavies sure as hell need a buff. |
Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
226
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 21:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Wojciak wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: #1 Armor plates and shield extenders should be a % of dropsuit base armor or shields. (info from Sloth9230)
I agree with everything but this ^. That totally screws scouts over, the CPU/PG requirements for the % would totally make them worthless except to a heavy...just saying. I can't say much else but I know vehicle shield modules are split between light and heavy...maybe a dropsuit interpretation of that system? i know scouts that go 1v1 against heavies with a hmg and take them out because of their shields. i think that suits should have size specific modules because it dose not seem right that a scout can have the same mods that a heavy can (like armor plates). Heaves need love as do assaults and logies, so CCP stop favoring the scout so much,
lol. DUST is hilarious. One minute you'll have someone saying scouts are the most broken class and worthless, with a relative general consensus. CCP makes some tweaks and BAM. People say they're OP. Looking forward to the day this is all behind us and the game is balanced. Might be a pipe dream.
I always envisioned scouts as weak to assault, but strong against heavies, with assaults taking care of scouts. That was the balance it seemed CCP was trying to achieve at one point long ago. These days, I have no idea what they are trying to do.
Regardless, for the first time in a long time, scouts are becoming viable again. There may be problems, but CCP is not favoring the scout (or if they are, it's a very recent event). For a long time heavies were OP, now they're not, and arguably they're underpowered in various areas. Assaults, as always, seem a little too effective of late, but definitely not scouts - except perhaps shotgun scouts, but then again, catch that shottie in the open and he's very dead unless he turns tail and runs.
I'm still waiting for the logi is OP thread. There may have been one, but I missed it if so. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
847
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 01:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Speaking as someone who plays with and against many heavies but does not play one here are my perceptions.
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:From a player that knows heavys well
Low level heavys (type I) need a bit of a nerf, adv and proto heavys need good buff.
#1 Armor plates and shield extenders should be a % of dropsuit base armor or shields. Or dropsuit size specific modules
How can a scout fit as much addon armor on his suit as a heavy can. Yet the slow down is % based its just assbackwards. Its like a lav fitting the same plates as a tank but getting slowed down the same % amount. Different surface area and strength and load capacity. I'd hesitate to make mods % based, but I'd be all for a suit based bonus tied to your dropsuit skill (Heavy, Scout, etc) that grants better effects as you level up. This would add diversity and specialization as the racial sub-types are introduced. This way you get the same possible net effect with more player choice/control and increase game diversity to boot.
Quote: #2 heavy suits should gain minor health and minor base stat improvements going from mil to proto as should all suits. They should def be a little faster have slightly more stamina as should all suits
I would make this going from Standard to Prototype, I believe Militia and Standard should remain as they are now for various balance reasons. I agree heartily however with the general point you raise here (and I do so not only as a non-heavy but as a guy who doesn't run Proto suits. In the present iteration Proto suits are quite frankly too weak for their cost in ISK and SP).
Quote:#3 they need a rework on slot capacity. No other combat suit cannot use equipment. Thus they should have lots of combat slots to work with. (how many can be balance by the devs but the suit progression from std to proto should make sense)
I think in part this could be helped by touching up the value of Heavy Weapons as that is in theory one of the major advantages of the heavy suit. I would look there first for proper value in the balance of the class. However that being said the proto suits do seem a little lackluster and could use an additional slot or two. I would encourage keeping this change minor to start for balance testing and doing Low Slots before/instead of High Slots as the lows can be used for both mobility and defense but do not help stack dps.
Quote:Mechanics for dropsuits should stack with armor plates added, this should also apply for shield extenders for its skill that is the same as mechanics for shields. Agreed, or failing that there should at minimum be a skill (one each for armor and shields) that will provide the same effect applied to mods.
Quote: Slot count (proto) Assault suits get 7 slots and 2 equipment slots Logistics gets 8 slots and 4-3 equipment Scouts get 6 slots and 2-3 equipments slots... but lack the CPU to use them. Heavies get 5 slots (info from Sloth9230)
I reiterate my suggestion from above, give the proto heavy an extra low slot and see how things shake out from there.
0.02 ISK Cross
ps ~ +1 to the general content of the OP |
TheBluBerry
Deep Space Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 04:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
I totally agree with whats being said here. As a guy that often runs assault and logi, I've noticed heavies are a complete joke and I can s*** all over them with a militia AR and 2 enhanced damage mods, even when they have full health and its a 1v1, maybe not a well equipped proto heavy, but against other heavies I can go all day no problem. HEAVIES NEED A BUFF or CCP can reduce the effectiveness of AR and/or add stacking penalties for damage mods. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
850
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 05:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Illuminaughty-696 wrote: I'm still waiting for the logi is OP thread. There may have been one, but I missed it if so.
There have been some posts in my thread about equipment WP scaling that come pretty close, and at least one post in the training grounds which straight up said that Logi's are better Assaults than Assaults. But those are all isolated posts on full threads so I guess we're only half way there
Cheers, Cross
ps ~ this is in no way a thinly veiled bump to a thread I find worth of more consideration |
Superhero Rawdon
Better Hide R Die
10
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Illuminaughty-696 wrote: I'm still waiting for the logi is OP thread. There may have been one, but I missed it if so.
There have been some posts in my thread about equipment WP scaling that come pretty close, and at least one post in the training grounds which straight up said that Logi's are better Assaults than Assaults. But those are all isolated posts on full threads so I guess we're only half way there Cheers, Cross ps ~ this is in no way a thinly veiled bump to a thread I find worth of more consideration
well, this is |
Salt Dog 76
Red Star.
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 18:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
+1 to infinity
CCP... Do you guys realize that few months ago the forums were battered with threads about heavys being OP. How long has it been since anyone has seen such a post. Just like someone said earlier and alot have months ago.
When we heavys were defending heavys and saying when assault and logis, scouts get better gear we will be screwed and a waste of SP and now here it is.
We need 1 more high and 1 or 2 more Low slots to be competitive for the Sp/Isk price of our gear. I haven't and most likely wont Speck into proto Heavy Dropsuits. Theres no reason to for 1 slot.
Im a pretty desent heavy, 3+ Kdr and for about a month been raging hard. Cant take on anyone 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 anymore and its sad because lets face it this crap is expensive aurum and isk and Sp wise.
Please CCP fix the Heavy they are sad now. With my main Yourdeadagain76 i solo heavys bseries all the time, 1 on 1 with type I or II with gek38 and i shouldn't be able to.
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pipies
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.03.27 20:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
I don't think percent would work out. II, B and Vk1 would not be relevant. You would get over double the boost from armour mods then shields on a type I vs a type II (and A vs B ; 0 vs 1) hence the base armour is 650 but base shield is 320. Not to mention this would just lead to a scaling of all class's HP; meaning it really woudln't be an advantage hence everything(all suits) would just be harder to kill(The hp ratio & therefore the hp/dps ratio [The times would be longer but the relative time of say a heavy vs an assault would remain the same[For example: 1000/500= 2 => 600/1200 = 0.5 2/0.5 = 4 ... Lets say that the modules are selected such that the sum is a 30% EHP increase => 1300/500 = 2.6 => 780/1200 = 0.65=> 2.6/0.65=4].) would be the same). Also; due to the stacking bug, other said classes would actually benefit MORE then the heavy hence the %s would stack(that is; the stacking bonus of 1.1^4 >1.1^3 ...1.46-1.4 = 0.06 ....1.33=1.3 = 0.03... the difference being the 4 modules would give an additional 3% HP)& effectively create a weaker heavy. That being said; Heavy specific modules is defiantly a solution. Heavies are brutes; their armour plates should be thicker and shield generators larger(I remember reading heavies suits are mechanically aided in movement=> they should be able to carry heavier objects/gear: ex a heavy machine gun) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
872
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 10:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Salt Dog 76 wrote: We need 1 more high and 1 or 2 more Low slots to be competitive for the Sp/Isk price of our gear. I haven't and most likely wont Speck into proto Heavy Dropsuits. Theres no reason to for 1 slot.
I still maintain that it would be better to grant an additional low slot (higher mobility/lower profile/more tank) than to grant a dps boost via the addition of a high slot, but beyond that I agree with the overall point of your post.
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Drothgar von Haggis
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.03.31 20:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
2-Ton Twenty-One wrote:From a player that knows heavys well Low level heavys (type I) need a bit of a nerf, adv and proto heavys need good buff. #1 Armor plates and shield extenders should be a % of dropsuit base armor or shields. Or dropsuit size specific modules How can a scout fit as much addon armor on his suit as a heavy can. Yet the slow down is % based its just assbackwards. Its like a lav fitting the same plates as a tank but getting slowed down the same % amount. Different surface area and strength and load capacity. #2 heavy suits should gain minor health and minor base stat improvements going from mil to proto as should all suits. They should def be a little faster have slightly more stamina as should all suits#3 they need a rework on slot capacity. No other combat suit cannot use equipment. Thus they should have lots of combat slots to work with. (how many can be balance by the devs but the suit progression from std to proto should make sense) Mechanics for dropsuits should stack with armor plates added, this should also apply for shield extenders for its skill that is the same as mechanics for shields. Hell if you made these (some or all) fixes I would be fine if you took my grenade slot away from the heavy (But dont if you dont need to ) Slot count (proto) Assault suits get 7 slots and 2 equipment slots Logistics gets 8 slots and 4-3 equipment Scouts get 6 slots and 2-3 equipments slots... but lack the CPU to use them. Heavies get 5 slots (info from Sloth9230) +1 Something should be done to fix the class. |
flesth
Red Star. EoN.
2
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Posted - 2013.04.06 17:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bump , we can't let this tread die :( |
REMNANCY 1
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.04.06 17:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
Heavies are for sure way to squishy I can 1v1 heavies with my Duvolle far to easily for the supposed "walking tank" class |
Sextus Hardcock
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
135
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Posted - 2013.04.06 22:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
I agree with more low slots for the Proto suit.
I would like to add, that Pubs and these cute little 8v8 matches are not good places to use a support suit like the heavy. |
dalt ud
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
86
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Posted - 2013.04.07 20:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
lol, at start open beta heavies was a cheat vs other classes.
Many of people beginned use heavy because it was easy mode no one had armor and 1vs1 heavies had great advantage.
Now other classes got shields and armor and damage - and heavies begin cry.
Heavy is highspecialized class. And this class have advantage in SOME circumstances.
I think heavies have enough power for close range battles in buildings and narrow places.
Use team work, use brains, use logistics, and dont cry about buff. Nothing personal, i am didnt cried when i had no chances vs heavy at start OBT. |
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