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trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
189
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Posted - 2013.03.07 16:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Snipers in dust have one endgame issue that's going to surface soon, as corps get the game. Dust is local objective based, and snipers are a global field asset.
This will ultimately mean, that the counter to snipers is at the same time the only way to win the game: tanks and frontline troops, using drop uplinks to deploy, bypassing sniper cover. A full local team wins, so why waste time thinking about snipers?
The core issue can be fixed - and the game can be broadened much - by introducing open objectives without cover. A random generator makes objectives spawn without hacking cover, let's say 25% probability. The game changes drastically as tanks are required to provide hack cover, and sniper dominance along with tank dominance gives an advantage at holding some of the objectives. A game with 3/3 open objectives is a game of field control, a game with 0/3 open objectives is your generic assault bash. Teams need to adapt to circumstances, and base design allows you to play to your strenght.
Mini fixes to accompany: GÇó thale damage reduction, clip size +1 GÇó range scaled damage. optimal range 200m, falloff 400, sharpshooter actually matters. GÇó scope selection |
Spilluminati
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.03.07 17:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
+ 1 Occasional objectives without cover would be an interesting dynamic.
Also scope selection for all weapons, not just sniper rifles (with appropriate skills). |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
223
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Posted - 2013.03.07 17:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like the open objectives. This is a great idea, and your point about end game snipers is spot on.
I don't agree with the Thale nerf. The Thale adds risk of being sniped back to proto fits that are able to tank any possible risk. It allows the sniper role to maintain its role in situations where enemies are using the absolute best gear.
Damage drop off isn't a bad idea either although I think you should raise the distance on that and start damage drop off at 400m+, and even then not see an immediate fall off.
Hope the devs get some open objectives in these maps, I'd love to provide cover in my tank in one of these 'no man's lands'. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative
9
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Posted - 2013.03.07 18:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
i don't like open objects as theres really no way that some could get more open(manus peak) without just being a post randomly placed in the ground plus this would make for a scary place for tanks as no cover from av. I do not see the reason to nerf Thale. I also do not like the idea of every weapon having scopes unless you paid for in isk or aur and had a sp requirement for it but i would feel best if they just changed the guns to look different and not ever scope in a type of weapon looked the same.
if you want a open map pray for manus peak on every random match.
this damage drop off is just pointless, i mean really if your shooting from over 400m your either redline into the middle of the field(small field of view most maps) or shooting into the other teams redline(usaully means they are clustered at the redline) which isn't going to for the worse of the game. |
Chinduko
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
23
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Posted - 2013.03.07 18:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Snipers in dust have one endgame issue that's going to surface soon, as corps get the game. Dust is local objective based, and snipers are a global field asset.
This will ultimately mean, that the counter to snipers is at the same time the only way to win the game: tanks and frontline troops, using drop uplinks to deploy, bypassing sniper cover. A full local team wins, so why waste time thinking about snipers?
The core issue can be fixed - and the game can be broadened much - by introducing open objectives without cover. A random generator makes objectives spawn without hacking cover, let's say 25% probability. The game changes drastically as tanks are required to provide hack cover, and sniper dominance along with tank dominance gives an advantage at holding some of the objectives. A game with 3/3 open objectives is a game of field control, a game with 0/3 open objectives is your generic assault bash. Teams need to adapt to circumstances, and base design allows you to play to your strenght.
Mini fixes to accompany: GÇó thale damage reduction, clip size +1 GÇó range scaled damage. optimal range 200m, falloff 400, sharpshooter actually matters. GÇó scope selection
I don't like the open objectives since it would likely promote more sniping which is already abundant. If all I have to do is sit back and watch an objective where noone can hide, I'll sit behind the red line or some small difficult corner to reach and snipe for easy, easy kills like snipers do now.
I do want there to be range scaled damage with sniper rifles so they have to push forward to benefit the team instead of sit as far back as their red line. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
191
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Posted - 2013.03.07 18:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'm talking low/nulksec fights here. Pubs can stay as they are :) |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
224
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Posted - 2013.03.07 19:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
No one likes open objectives? They're supposed to be death-traps. It's a suicide mission for infantry without heavy vehicle support, and a high risk objective for vehicles. Sounds like good times to me. |
Chinduko
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
23
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Posted - 2013.03.07 19:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:No one likes open objectives? They're supposed to be death-traps. It's a suicide mission for infantry without heavy vehicle support, and a high risk objective for vehicles. Sounds like good times to me.
I originally disagreed with open objectives but your post does make the idea seem more exciting. |
Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
225
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Posted - 2013.03.07 19:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chinduko wrote:Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:No one likes open objectives? They're supposed to be death-traps. It's a suicide mission for infantry without heavy vehicle support, and a high risk objective for vehicles. Sounds like good times to me. I originally disagreed with open objectives but your post does make the idea seem more exciting.
...let the hate flow through you! |
Jathniel
G I A N T
66
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Posted - 2013.03.08 02:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Snipers in dust have one endgame issue that's going to surface soon, as corps get the game. Dust is local objective based, and snipers are a global field asset.
This will ultimately mean, that the counter to snipers is at the same time the only way to win the game: tanks and frontline troops, using drop uplinks to deploy, bypassing sniper cover. A full local team wins, so why waste time thinking about snipers?
The core issue can be fixed - and the game can be broadened much - by introducing open objectives without cover. A random generator makes objectives spawn without hacking cover, let's say 25% probability. The game changes drastically as tanks are required to provide hack cover, and sniper dominance along with tank dominance gives an advantage at holding some of the objectives. A game with 3/3 open objectives is a game of field control, a game with 0/3 open objectives is your generic assault bash. Teams need to adapt to circumstances, and base design allows you to play to your strenght.
Mini fixes to accompany: GÇó thale damage reduction, clip size +1 GÇó range scaled damage. optimal range 200m, falloff 400, sharpshooter actually matters. GÇó scope selection
I identify with all fellow snipers. I agree to everything except the thale's dmg reduction.
IF it takes a damage reduction like in the other thread, the damage cannot drop below 300 points, and it must receive a RoF buff AND a clip size buff. Anything that allows it to strike extreme discomfort into targets, and keep that up.
I know you are trying to be reasonable with non-snipers, but too much has gone their way already, imo. Especially, players who are dedicated assaults. |
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Patoman Radiant
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
55
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Posted - 2013.03.08 06:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
thale is a officer weapon, you can't buy it, its rare, and in whatever glass cannon suit you are using dies, its gone. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
196
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Posted - 2013.03.08 07:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Perhaps the better approach on that would be buffing all other officer guns ;) |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1181
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Snipers in dust have one endgame issue that's going to surface soon, as corps get the game. Dust is local objective based, and snipers are a global field asset.
This will ultimately mean, that the counter to snipers is at the same time the only way to win the game: tanks and frontline troops, using drop uplinks to deploy, bypassing sniper cover. A full local team wins, so why waste time thinking about snipers?
The core issue can be fixed - and the game can be broadened much - by introducing open objectives without cover. A random generator makes objectives spawn without hacking cover, let's say 25% probability. The game changes drastically as tanks are required to provide hack cover, and sniper dominance along with tank dominance gives an advantage at holding some of the objectives. A game with 3/3 open objectives is a game of field control, a game with 0/3 open objectives is your generic assault bash. Teams need to adapt to circumstances, and base design allows you to play to your strenght.
Mini fixes to accompany: GÇó thale damage reduction, clip size +1 GÇó range scaled damage. optimal range 200m, falloff 400, sharpshooter actually matters. GÇó scope selection
Wuuut ? No cover on objectives ? Like pannels right out in the open ? And herei was thinking it was a sniper's job to get into a position where he CAN bypass the cover of an objective..The current maps have many of those.
Plateus : B point Magnus peak : A B and C depending on the buildings layout skim junction : the outside objectives on the 5 points are "snipable" from very high structures i believe
and so on.
I dont see why we should care about snipers being able to shoot at people hacking objectives; Beside, you're forgetting about the support role of a sniper. taking down Laser dudes or MD dudes on higher ground. Or killing ennemies holding a position to open a way for its team.
This suggestion is, imo, 100% "me wants to be star of the game in corp matches with no effort". I mean, come on. Fully open objectives is idiotic on every aspects |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
196
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
It makes an occasional shift from local to global tactics, which is a good change. The game is now all about fighting in strategic spots, while it could be that AND fighting for field control. On those maps you mentioned, Laurent, only Manus Peak is the one where I would not contribute more at front line than as sniper. And I suck at frontline.
Edit: thus far in 100% corp matches I've fought, its first minute of game stall by sniping, then I hop voluntarily to AR because I want the team to win. Drop uplinks bypass snipers. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
196
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Posted - 2013.03.08 10:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Here is what I think the "meta goal" would be:
A team optimally consists of 3 parts: 1/3 of it is frontline 1/3 of it is long range battlefield control 1/3 of it needs to adapt to map specifics
Currently: 2/3 of it is frontline 1/3 adapts, which can be snipers, AV, tanks or just more frontline
The games are focused around frontline, while they could change by map to have long range field control focus some times.
The current system inevitably leads to "crush frontline, have tank advantage with rail tanks positioned up front. Sniper is most efficient to just replace by rail tank at high ground, wasting enemy time to AV and dodging it.
Do you ever see a game evolve to half sniper/railtanks? It should, because it most of the time is over half frontline. I have adapted and am going full AR/scram rifle focus with sniping as a sidekick role, for when the enemy team is redlined. Those matches are won regardless of sniping. Hard fights? Better take frontline than to get ignored |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1888
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think this would be awesome. +1 to OP. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
234
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Posted - 2013.03.08 11:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Think about it this way - in Low/Null Sec corporations 'own' their planets. Who in their right mind would construct null-canons on their own planet which are out in the wide open?
Also, soon enough we're going to have a sort of procedural map creation, so there will be thousands of map variations and people won't be able to get in the same old positions they've learnt from playing the maps hundreds of times. This will make the player and team approaches vary massively.
Finally, it is currently quite easy to get into the right position to snipe anyone hacking one objective (except for the consoles in the underground or indoors bits). I have no doubt there will be more variations to the null cannon consoles but the idea of having one with zero cover from any direction flies in the face of logic. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1888
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Think about it this way - in Low/Null Sec corporations 'own' their planets. Who in their right mind would construct null-canons on their own planet which are out in the wide open?
Also, soon enough we're going to have a sort of procedural map creation, so there will be thousands of map variations and people won't be able to get in the same old positions they've learnt from playing the maps hundreds of times. This will make the player and team approaches vary massively.
Finally, it is currently quite easy to get into the right position to snipe anyone hacking one objective (except for the consoles in the underground or indoors bits). I have no doubt there will be more variations to the null cannon consoles but the idea of having one with zero cover from any direction flies in the face of logic. If it's placed in an area where there's cover provided, it makes sense to not waste money on adding more cover built into the terminal.
Also, if they make variants of the Null Cannon terminals with and without cover, you'll be able to choose which to use in different locations on player-owned planets, allowing you to determine where the terminals are located. On top of that, obviously it makes sense that adding extra armour plating to give players cover when defending/hacking the point would cost more, so NOT providing hacking cover would be a valid financial decision in some cases. |
KalOfTheRathi
CowTek
198
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Posted - 2013.03.08 12:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thale damage reduction? Not only no, but Kitten No!
How about damage reduction for whatever Office Class Weapon you like to use, not just the one that butt hurt our semi-consistent Forum Troll?
The entire point of Office Weapons is their improved stats and relative difficulty to acquire. Plus the heavy requirement of SP to Skill up enough to enable their use.
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Jathniel
G I A N T
68
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Posted - 2013.03.08 20:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Thale damage reduction? Not only no, but Kitten No!
How about damage reduction for whatever Office Class Weapon you like to use, not just the one that butt hurt our semi-consistent Forum Troll?
The entire point of Office Weapons is their improved stats and relative difficulty to acquire. Plus the heavy requirement of SP to Skill up enough to enable their use.
In another thread, someone was griping that the Thale's was disproportionately stronger than the other SRs, unlike the other officer weapons to their class (with the exception of the forge gun, which was also a 'easy kill button' ). The entire thesis was erroneous if game balancing was the intent.
How about a damage increase for whatever officer-class weapon that people like to use? (Excluding the Thale's of course.) That should take care of that pettiness.
trollsroyce wrote:It makes an occasional shift from local to global tactics, which is a good change. The game is now all about fighting in strategic spots, while it could be that AND fighting for field control. On those maps you mentioned, Laurent, only Manus Peak is the one where I would not contribute more at front line than as sniper. And I suck at frontline.
Edit: thus far in 100% corp matches I've fought, its first minute of game stall by sniping, then I hop voluntarily to AR because I want the team to win. Drop uplinks bypass snipers.
We need deployable installations, to make field control more vital, and get the ideal 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 that you mention. |
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