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nakaya indigene
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
41
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Posted - 2013.02.06 07:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Too few people seem to be talking about the glaring flaws with missile turrets. go a few rounds with any missile turret and tell me there is no problem with missile trajectory and speed. really.. try it... when you shoot a missile out of a launcher it should go the direction you shot it in.. this is real world physics here.. the velocity of the vehicle should never affect the direction the missile comes out of the tube.. ever. in the game the movement of the vehicle some how affects the direction its shot. the speed is too slow also. even when you have the accelerated missiles, it still goes pretty slow.
Large turrets. oh man. i haven't seen a large turret in months.. they are extinct (besides installations.. those are just fodder for tanks.) even if your shot does make it the damage inflicted is a joke compared to the other turrets. .. I remember when missile turrets were just as formidable as any other turret. it was balanced and fun.. I don't understand the Steep nerf..
dropships.. really? slow, made of glass (yes even with a great fit), no chaff, missile death inevitable, unrealistic flight mechanics (was better a few builds ago), physics are bogus (this goes for all of the physics in the game.) you can barely tap, BARELY TAP a wall and explode. (shield tank taking a TON of damage from a tiny bump in the road, but when it goes off a mountain gets no damage.) Oh and missiles on a dropship can still hit the edge of the ship. all it takes is one disgruntled blueberry to ruin your day. I will give kudos for the afterburner. and give the pilot wp for people spawning and an eject button.
please I am encouraging conversation on this one. I want people to talk about this. |
supersayinb
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
52
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Posted - 2013.02.06 08:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
nakaya indigene wrote:Too few people seem to be talking about the glaring flaws with missile turrets. go a few rounds with any missile turret and tell me there is no problem with missile trajectory and speed. really.. try it... when you shoot a missile out of a launcher it should go the direction you shot it in.. this is real world physics here.. the velocity of the vehicle should never affect the direction the missile comes out of the tube.. ever. in the game the movement of the vehicle some how affects the direction its shot. the speed is too slow also. even when you have the accelerated missiles, it still goes pretty slow.
Large turrets. oh man. i haven't seen a large turret in months.. they are extinct (besides installations.. those are just fodder for tanks.) even if your shot does make it the damage inflicted is a joke compared to the other turrets. .. I remember when missile turrets were just as formidable as any other turret. it was balanced and fun.. I don't understand the Steep nerf..
dropships.. really? slow, made of glass (yes even with a great fit), no chaff, missile death inevitable, unrealistic flight mechanics (was better a few builds ago), physics are bogus (this goes for all of the physics in the game.) you can barely tap, BARELY TAP a wall and explode. (shield tank taking a TON of damage from a tiny bump in the road, but when it goes off a mountain gets no damage.) I will give kudos for the afterburner. and give the pilot wp for people spawning and an eject button.
please I am encouraging conversation on this one. I want people to talk about this.
Agreed. Were this missiles over powered? Yes, but not to the extent that most of the forum thought though. In corp matches/beta tourney, missiles filled a role. Just not the end all, be all role that everyone assumed. Rail tanks are where it's at
Balancing should be done from competitive matches, not random pub games.
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Irish Syn
Chernova Industries
123
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Posted - 2013.02.06 08:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Some things are so glaringly wrong that many simply assume CCP must already know. |
G Torq
ALTA B2O
88
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Posted - 2013.02.06 08:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
nakaya indigene wrote: when you shoot a missile out of a launcher it should go the direction you shot it in.. this is real world physics here.. the velocity of the vehicle should never affect the direction the missile comes out of the tube.. ever. in the game the movement of the vehicle some how affects the direction its shot. Try this: Stand on a car going 40 km/h (no, seriously, dont) Throw a rock perpendicular to the vehicle's direction, at a friend standing still next to the road Observe the trajectory of the rock: The motion of the vehicle does affect the launched object.
What is missing is proper tracking/guidance computers, that can offset the vehicle's motion (direction and speed), and indicate where a shot will land. (This of cause cannot compensate for the driver making a sharp change in direction or speed miliseconds before you push the trigger ... )
A decent middle-ground would be to have some launchers use higher CPU rating, but include better guidance; this way, if your gunner is crap, you can help him out by outiftting a more costly weapon.
Also, if you want to make suggestions/requests/feedback, I suggest to use the Feedback/Request forum. |
Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
67
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Posted - 2013.02.06 08:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
G Torq wrote:nakaya indigene wrote: when you shoot a missile out of a launcher it should go the direction you shot it in.. this is real world physics here.. the velocity of the vehicle should never affect the direction the missile comes out of the tube.. ever. in the game the movement of the vehicle some how affects the direction its shot. Try this: Stand on a car going 40 km/h (no, seriously, dont) Throw a rock perpendicular to the vehicle's direction, at a friend standing still next to the road Observe the trajectory of the rock: The motion of the vehicle does affect the launched object.What is missing is proper tracking/guidance computers, that can offset the vehicle's motion (direction and speed), and indicate where a shot will land. (This of cause cannot compensate for the driver making a sharp change in direction or speed miliseconds before you push the trigger ... ) A decent middle-ground would be to have some launchers use higher CPU rating, but include better guidance; this way, if your gunner is crap, you can help him out by outiftting a more costly weapon. Also, if you want to make suggestions/requests/feedback, I suggest to use the Feedback/Request forum.
Yeah, I would just like to reiterate that the velocity of the vehicle (in the real world) does effect the projectile.
If you're moving at 10 m/s in the +x direction and throw a rock at 10 m/s in the +y direction, then after leaving your hand, the rock will move at 10m/s in both the +x and the +y direction. From the point it leaves your hand, it will travel at an angle of 45 degrees (from the direction of travel) and move at an overall speed of the square root of 200.
I'm not saying you're wrong about how it should work in game though. |
KripnawtiQ Prime
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
207
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Posted - 2013.02.06 09:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
nakaya indigene wrote:Too few people seem to be talking about the glaring flaws with missile turrets. go a few rounds with any missile turret and tell me there is no problem with missile trajectory and speed. really.. try it... when you shoot a missile out of a launcher it should go the direction you shot it in.. this is real world physics here.. the velocity of the vehicle should never affect the direction the missile comes out of the tube.. ever. in the game the movement of the vehicle some how affects the direction its shot. the speed is too slow also. even when you have the accelerated missiles, it still goes pretty slow.
Large turrets. oh man. i haven't seen a large turret in months.. they are extinct (besides installations.. those are just fodder for tanks.) even if your shot does make it the damage inflicted is a joke compared to the other turrets. .. I remember when missile turrets were just as formidable as any other turret. it was balanced and fun.. I don't understand the Steep nerf..
dropships.. really? slow, made of glass (yes even with a great fit), no chaff, missile death inevitable, unrealistic flight mechanics (was better a few builds ago), physics are bogus (this goes for all of the physics in the game.) you can barely tap, BARELY TAP a wall and explode. (shield tank taking a TON of damage from a tiny bump in the road, but when it goes off a mountain gets no damage.) Oh and missiles on a dropship can still hit the edge of the ship. all it takes is one disgruntled blueberry to ruin your day. I will give kudos for the afterburner. and give the pilot wp for people spawning and an eject button.
please I am encouraging conversation on this one. I want people to talk about this.
Things have been over nerfed in the past. Missle turrets are one of them. The outcry against large missle turrets was so great that they were nerfed to an extent of pretty much useless. Tbh I don't even know how some of these people find time to play after spending all day crying on the forums.
On a side note though, large missle turrets were serious killers for a long time. They really did need dialed back a bit. |
Luther Mandrix
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
53
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Posted - 2013.02.06 09:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
I would like a light that says it is safe to land (speed of craft) and or a hit x to land button. WP for spawns would be nice also.And a multiplier for staying in the air near objectives would be nice also. |
Luther Mandrix
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
53
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Posted - 2013.02.06 09:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dev's please help me with this one if I increase my piloting skill above level 1 ,will it help the handling of the dropship? |
Leither Yiltron
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
417
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Posted - 2013.02.06 09:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
nakaya indigene wrote:I remember when missile turrets were just as formidable as any other turret. it was balanced and fun.. I don't understand the Steep nerf..
Your post addresses a really glaring issue with missiles in Dust at the moment really effectively, but the one quoted section isn't quite correct. Large Missiles used to have a huge radius of splash damage as well as huge damage within that splash radius. In fact, large missiles used to be so good that Dropships used to be "overpowered" simply by inheriting the power of LM launchers.
As you've pointed out, CCP did a huge nerf to missiles after this period. I won't call it bad, because the nerf made Dust much more enjoyable. We are, however, left with the situation detailed. Missiles are practically pointless because they're impossible to aim and got the DOUBLE nerf (two variables), and Dropships are practically useless because they simply don't have enough health.
I'd like Dropships to have more HP at the very least. The missiles, however, need to be treated with a lot of care. I really don't want to go back to the old missiles. |
SERPENT-Adamapple
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.02.06 09:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
We need someone who's fully unlocked the dropship and It's turrets to determine if it really needs a buff. |
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fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
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Posted - 2013.02.06 10:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
+1 needed to be said
BUT!! dropship flight mechanics are AWSOME!! they function realistically and can do way more now then they could before. also If you die from swarm in a dropship you are doing it wrong while I agree they are fragile as **** swarms rarely get me even in militia fits, forge guns are the real problem(no I DONT want a forge gun nerf just stronger dropships).
drop ships need a hp buff and a turret bonus(range/splash damage) and some sort of SP reward maybe the pilot recives a bonus for the actions of passengers for a minute after they leave the DS.
Also some balance needs to be found between boot of god and OH MY GOD ITS A LAMPPOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!1!11!!1!!
given that you cant see the landing gear during most maneuvers an on screen notification of deployed or not and a speed based proximity sensor would be nice. Pilot approaching at dangerous velocity waring of some sort, or an on screen laser altimeter that tells you how far above the ground you are in meters so you don't have to sacrifice millions of isk losing dropships to learn how to make the perfect hot landing. Another option is to give self deployed gear that reduce the ships power and HP(dont really like this idea).
Frankly CCP you have given the pilots an amazingly realistic level of control on these dropships but none of the instrumentation to really make use of it.
to sum up what I would like to see on drop ships is: -more HP or the ability to fit more HP -an altimeter -a speed based proximity warning -a landing gear notification -ground speed -artificial horizon -and maybe(im not married to it) a little more agility(this would help to offset some of the HP boost needed) -A way to generate WP(as gunners/spawns are no longer viable) -the ability to boot passengers out(yes this can be abused just make it unactivatable behind a redline). -for all battle field roles dropships require a range/splash(maybe even damage) bonus. This includes remote reps as you are more likely to crash into the tanks and troops you are reping then repair them). -a hardened mode when landing gear are deployed fully(assuming no manually actuated landing gear) reduces incoming damage by 75ish% (any weapons bonuses are removed during this time).
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY dropships are often a liability on the battle field some way to remove them(and all vehicles) from the battle field with out losing them would be nice, hell instead of blowing up rdvs should come and pick them up(if they get blown up on recall thats the way the cookie crumbles).
in short dropships need a fuckton of work but |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 10:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
If anyone could mock up some of the onscreen visuals for what I just suggested that would be AWSOME!(If you are in my corp there is isk in it for you) |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 10:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Luther Mandrix wrote:I would like a light that says it is safe to land (speed of craft) and or a hit x to land button. WP for spawns would be nice also.And a multiplier for staying in the air near objectives would be nice also.
this is actually a really good Idea WP for dropping allies near hackable enemy instalations. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
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Posted - 2013.02.06 10:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
missiles need some love just not what they where, that 15-30M blast radius on a missle that does like 100*4 splash damage was ridiculous. Truthfully smalls should act like mass drivers in splash and damage and in the way they scale(maybe a little smaller blast radius), and larges should as well against personnel(their strength against personnel should be the number of missiles they push out causing in effect a larger splash and the potential for 4*damage.
also a lot of missles problems right now are due to lag, its hard to predict where theyll go and when theyll fire, same as a MD but with a lot more speed. once the lag is cut dont that woill help a little.
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fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 10:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
one thing I would like to see for large missile turrets is actual missiles, you know you can dumb fire them but they can lock vehicles. Add to this a target painting piece of equipment that a foot soldier can carry that the missiles travel to the target of when in line of sight and you can make a much lower DPS weapon(like missiles in EVE) That has a very important place on the battle field.
target painter should be like the one in half life It missiles go where you point it in real time.
also missiles would have to have a range of no greater then 500m to prevent redline precision strikes with a tank. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 10:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
another potential fix(and really they need to do this) is give vehicles a limited amount of ammo, this would keep vehicles from camping and allow a team to cut off the enemies supply lines. This would of course require an increase in the power of all vehicle weapons. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 11:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
fred orpaul wrote:one thing I would like to see for large missile turrets is actual missiles, you know you can dumb fire them but they can lock vehicles. Add to this a target painting piece of equipment that a foot soldier can carry that the missiles travel to the target of when in line of sight and you can make a much lower DPS weapon(like missiles in EVE) That has a very important place on the battle field.
target painter should be like the one in half life It missiles go where you point it in real time.
also missiles would have to have a range of no greater then 500m to prevent redline precision strikes with a tank.
for those of you saying whats the point of a locking mechanism with the target painter? it would allow you to run and gun against other vehicles so you can speed tank to make up for your lower DPS. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
219
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Posted - 2013.02.06 11:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
The reason this isn't being talked about all that much (though there are still always a couple of threads in the feedback or bugs sections) is that it's already been talked to death. There is nothing new to say. Everyone knows that they're rubbish and hardly anybody uses them anymore. CCP must know by now that they've over-nerfed them and hopefully are looking into ways to rebalance, so people use them again. |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
197
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Posted - 2013.02.06 11:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Adding my voice to DROP SHIPS need a nurf!!!
...wait what? |
Boxoffire
Lost-Legion
47
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Posted - 2013.02.06 12:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Not even, this will happen to me even if I'm driving forward, and a lo of times it won't exit the barrel, but in a space next to it. And using them in drop ships are just impossible, I feel that the trajectory is completely random while in motion. |
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Sev Alcatraz
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
185
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Posted - 2013.02.06 13:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
fred orpaul wrote:If anyone could mock up some of the onscreen visuals for what I just suggested that would be AWSOME!(If you are in my corp there is isk in it for you)
Last time a did some thing for you it cost me a million isk lol |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
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Posted - 2013.02.06 13:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
this time all I need is art sev AND I'm still gonna get you paid that 5M I said I would once I grind it back up. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
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Posted - 2013.02.06 13:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Boxoffire wrote:Not even, this will happen to me even if I'm driving forward, and a lo of times it won't exit the barrel, but in a space next to it. And using them in drop ships are just impossible, I feel that the trajectory is completely random while in motion.
its lag like I said the same thing happens with MD which is why its so hard to get a direct hit with them because you cant lead properly. multiply that by the speed and random turning of the vehicle and its next to impossible to line up the shot of a missile.
rails don't suffer from this as much because they are an infinite velocity weapon like most of the other weapons in the game so all that matters is being lined up when the round goes off. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
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Posted - 2013.02.06 13:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
I dont know if its possible but they could help fix this by writing the missiles trajectory like every thing else and then having the missile animation follow that trajectory and having the explosion go off with the appropriate time delay for missile travel time.
if its possible, and for all I know it already works like this, that just hasn't been my experience.
if it already works like this then my advice is all back @$$ wards |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
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Posted - 2013.02.06 14:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
The missiles have always fired about the same. They could use some refinement and tweaking. And it would be great to see some more options like some have suggested in this thread.
However, the physics is probably fairly accurate. Most games have physics geared more toward making it easy for players to hit stuff with weapons. At least with missiles in this game it takes a little skill and intuition to use them well, predict the path of the missile relative to velocity of the target or the turret they are fired from.
Players in this game never cease to amaze. When something like a laser or HMG shows up in game and people eventually figure out that it actually works, there will be a hundred threads of crying and whining. OP! they scream and howl. THe weapon gets called easy mode and cheating. Sniping is a no skill noob pastime and mainly for talentless hacks because there's no bullet drop, so on and so forth.
Then when there is a more interesting weapon that takes some practice and can be effective if some effort is invested into using it people also start to whine. Why doesn't the missile have an easy mode? Why can't I just point and click and kill everything that my reticle is touching? * Edit. THis was exactly how they used to work before the nerf. Missiles were easy mode. Now its all about: Dis weapons sux.
The nerf was to splash damage. That was a big one for small missile turrets. So if you are even slightly off even when your vehicle is almost still the missile will just fly past the target and splash damage doesn't do squat.
Grouping on large missile turrets was changed so they follow some random trajectory.
But missile turrets were not at all balanced before the nerf. Any missile turret was decent and anyone with feet for hands could just spam them all day long and get 20 plus kills in a game.
They still need some work. But do this. Skill all the way into advanced missile turrets. But on some damage mods, like you would if you were running a dropsuit fitting.
Have your gunner skill into turrets and missiles as well.
Use missiles.
You will see that most of the flaws with missiles are in clipping where the missile will hit some object on in the game other than what you actually see it hit on your screen, and splash damage isn't really applied all that well. And hit detection. Sometimes you can fire missile after missile from a stationary turret at a stationary object like a tank or turret installation and nothing happens. Also there seems to be something funky about how resistances work with the type of damage missiles should inflict.
But when you have invested the SP and time into using them, they are still very powerful. When they do work. |
Ire's thug
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
272
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Posted - 2013.02.06 14:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Boxoffire wrote:Not even, this will happen to me even if I'm driving forward, and a lo of times it won't exit the barrel, but in a space next to it. And using them in drop ships are just impossible, I feel that the trajectory is completely random while in motion.
^^ this. I don't care about the damage and splash rad. I would like them to just go straight. That is all. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Many times it feels like the rockets don't inherit the speed of the vehicle.
If you throw a ball from the roof of a car you see it travel from your hand perpendicular to the car. It might miss your target if you didn't take the horizontal velocity into account, but it would appear to you to be traveling directly away from your hand.
Now in a dropship if I fire a rocket perpendicular it immediately falls behind the ship as though it had no horizontal velocity at all. Even on a slow moving tank it would appear to fire from several feet to the left or right of travel, and often in some odd direction. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
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Posted - 2013.02.06 17:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
It seems that some rockets/missiles do this while others don't. I had the good fortune of having a few reds staring at me while in the missile turret of my LAV. I got OHK head shots on 2 of them somehow and there was no offset fire. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
once again its lag, it effects all non instant travel weaponry(forge, swarm, MD, grenades, and missiles) but you are rarely moving fast enough to notice it, tanks may seem slow but they move faster then scouts sprint, and the MD is perfectly noticeable on most suits(mainly because you rarely fire it standing still. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
fred orpaul wrote:If anyone could mock up some of the onscreen visuals for what I just suggested that would be AWSOME!(If you are in my corp there is isk in it for you)
Really, the dropship would benefit from the standard six-pack of flight instruments in all airplanes today:
1) DG - Directional Gyro (our current compass is good for that 2) Airspeed 3) Altimeter 4) VSI - Vertical Speed Indicator 5) Attitude Indicator (aka Artificial Horizon) 6) Turn Coordinator
I'd be willing tg sacrifice the Turn Coordinator for a radar altimeter.
You can reference any jet combat game for a decent HUD, but a really simple system would have:
1) A better marked compass for the DG 2) A tape display on one side for altitude and VSI 3) The Radar Altimeter would pop up only when within something like 50 or 100 feet above terrain 4) The airspeed indicator would differ the most because a dropship is not always flying forward. I think a line drawn from the center of the compass map with a length proportional to speed and a direction equal to that being flown would work best. When landing you would try to get the line length to zero as you put down.
Most of the time we have a visual horizon, so the attitude indicator could probably be dispensed with.
What we REALLY need is a decent moving map display. The buildings need to be marked on the compass map.
All this could be part of the pilot suit, as it would be designed to interface with the vehicle where standard dropsuits would not.
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Metatron Celestias
Dangerously Designed
9
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Posted - 2013.02.06 17:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
drop ships need a big boost power. they cost a lot and their shelds are minimal at best. CCP needs to nurse war missiles I'm constantly shot down in the air |
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