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Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
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Posted - 2013.02.04 10:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
To start off I want to say this: I don't feel that any weapon is currently overpowered. I feel, rather, that the game mechanics are very finicky and can be really confusing - as such, I have provided my own list of questions pertaining to this confusion toward the end of this post.
After a much popular "Is the GEK OP?" thread I decided to look into some statistics
Unfortunately, live fire wasn't actually tested but looking at a friendly will yield the same results anyway, so it all leads to the same overarching theme.
I'm not going to berate you with useless banter such as the actual percentages on the stacking penalities (someone saying that some GEK users were using lots of damage modifiers) or even more wacky ideas (such as stacking penalities not applying at all, a worst case scenario).
What I am going to propose is this:
Damage Escalation based on Range.
Through testing it's figured that a GEK-38 Assault Rifle does 110% damage from 0-40 meters. This means that someone using it with absolutely no Weaponry/Assault Rifle Proficiency skill, nor damage increasing modules, nets approximately 33.75 (110%) damage from the base damage per BODY shot. Given it's fire rate of 750, this means it can fire 12.5 rounds per second and thus equaling 421.875 DPS (damage per second). One-to-two seconds of continuous fire can down most of everything, including Heavies.
However.
Headshots do approximately 165% damage up to the same ranges, so the numbers are altered all together and look more like 53.625 damage per round and 670.3125 DPS.
Long story short, here's the numbers:
Range: 0-40m
Body Shot: 33.75 Body DPS: 421.875 Head Shot: 53.625 Head DPS: 670.313
All skills Lvl 5:
Body Shot: 44.688 Body DPS: 558.594 Head Shot: 67.025 Head DPS: 837.8125
All Skills Lvl 5 + 1 Prototype Damage Mod:
Body Shot: 48.263 Body DPS: 603.281 Head Shot: 72.394 Head DPS: 904.922
Other weapons have different percentages. Some other weapons are as follows:
Standard HMG (range 0-40m)
Body: 95% Head: 142%
Militia Scrambler Pistol (range 0-40m)
Body: (not tested) Head: 450%
So, basically, while the weapon may or may not be overpowered (I personally think the GEK makes battles last way too short, but that's just me) a GIANT factor is the Damage Escalation based on Range to Target.
This brings up a few questions:
A.) Are damage ratios against Shields (such as body and head shots) any different than Armor? Edit: Meaning, does a headshot against shields do more or less damage than a headshot against armor? B.) Why does the weapon affect the percentage of headshot damage, rather than the dropsuit being fired at? An explanation of this located in my thread: '(Feedback) Dropsuit Damage Ratios vs Weapon Damage Ratios' C.) Why does the GEK start at 110% from 0-40m, rather than 100%? D.) Why does the HMG start at 95% from 0-40m, only to get lower and effectively never doing full damage on body shots? E.) Why is there no clear indication of the weapon's effective range(s) listed on their attributes in the market? F.) Why is there no clear indication that a certain weapon will do more or less damage to shields or armor listed on their attributes in the market? G.) Why is there no clear indication of a weapon's damage ratios pertaining to body and heat shots listed on their attributes in the market?
Feel free to discuss. |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
283
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Posted - 2013.02.04 11:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote: This brings up a few questions:
A.) Are damage ratios against Shields (such as body and head shots) any different than Armor? B.) Why does the weapon affect the percentage of headshot damage, rather than the dropsuit being fired at? The Scrambler Pistol being an extreme case. C.) Why does the GEK start at 110% from 0-40m, rather than 100%? D.) Why does the HMG start at 95% from 0-40m, only to get lower and effectively never doing full damage on body shots? E.) Why is there no clear indication of the weapon's effective range(s) listed on their attributes in the market? F.) Why is there no clear indication that a certain weapon will do more or less damage to shields or armor listed on their attributes in the market?
Feel free to discuss.
A) Yes, some weapons do more armour damage others do more shield damage. Also shield and armour have better resists against some weapons.
B) Scrambler pistols do more headshot damage because of the "lore" of the weapon. They scramble neurons.
C-F) can't answer these. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
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Posted - 2013.02.04 11:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
iceyburnz wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote: This brings up a few questions:
A.) Are damage ratios against Shields (such as body and head shots) any different than Armor? B.) Why does the weapon affect the percentage of headshot damage, rather than the dropsuit being fired at? The Scrambler Pistol being an extreme case. C.) Why does the GEK start at 110% from 0-40m, rather than 100%? D.) Why does the HMG start at 95% from 0-40m, only to get lower and effectively never doing full damage on body shots? E.) Why is there no clear indication of the weapon's effective range(s) listed on their attributes in the market? F.) Why is there no clear indication that a certain weapon will do more or less damage to shields or armor listed on their attributes in the market?
Feel free to discuss.
A) Yes, some weapons do more armour damage others do more shield damage. Also shield and armour have better resists against some weapons. B) Scrambler pistols do more headshot damage because of the "lore" of the weapon. They scramble neurons. C-F) can't answer these.
A was more in reference to the damage ratios of the different places of being shot.
What I mean to say is: Does a headshot against Shields do more/less damage than a headshot against Armor?
B was meant to convey that a weapon should do more/less damage against the dropsuit specifically, rather than the weapon doing more damage itself. Basically, a scout has less shields/armor than an Assault suit, so the Scrambler Pistol would have a harder time punching through. |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
283
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Posted - 2013.02.04 11:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
A was more in reference to the damage ratios of the different places of being shot.
What I mean to say is: Does a headshot against Shields do more/less damage than a headshot against Armor?
B was meant to convey that a weapon should do more/less damage against the dropsuit specifically, rather than the weapon doing more damage itself. Basically, a scout has less shields/armor than an Assault suit, so the Scrambler Pistol would have a harder time punching through.
These are then more difficult questions to answer. Much of the mechanics behind weapons has largely been obfucated by the devs either intentionally or unintentionally.
Much of what people are posting is basically done through, what you have done, datamining, extrapolation and guess work.
To be honest I can't accurately answer those questions now that you have calrified. Perhaps people who have delved into the realm of dust spreadsheeting will be able to shed some light, or a dev maybe.
Sorry I couldn't be more help.
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Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 11:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
iceyburnz wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
A was more in reference to the damage ratios of the different places of being shot.
What I mean to say is: Does a headshot against Shields do more/less damage than a headshot against Armor?
B was meant to convey that a weapon should do more/less damage against the dropsuit specifically, rather than the weapon doing more damage itself. Basically, a scout has less shields/armor than an Assault suit, so the Scrambler Pistol would have a harder time punching through.
These are then more difficult questions to answer. Much of the mechanics behind weapons has largely been obfucated by the devs either intentionally or unintentionally. Much of what people are posting is basically done through, what you have done, datamining, extrapolation and guess work. To be honest I can't accurately answer those questions now that you have calrified. Perhaps people who have delved into the realm of dust spreadsheeting will be able to shed some light, or a dev maybe. Sorry I couldn't be more help.
All good. As I stated in another thread:
What it boils down to is that certain weapons have insanely high damage ratios that aren't dependent on who's being fired at, with the Scrambler Pistol doing 450% to the head, making it at about 324 damage per shot. That's an instant kill on a Scout, and even some unskilled Logistics suits. This is based on the lore but it can be assumed that a dropsuit with more shields/armor would resist that weapon's damage more than simply absorbing more damage from it.
324 damage to 350 shields is still 324 damage. 324 damage to 350 shields with an added 5% resistance due to it being, say a Caldari Logistics suit, is more like 307-308.
In laymens terms, it's like shooting a 9mm at a wooden board versus shooting a 9mm at a sheet of titanium.
It's more "eve" like and it just makes more sense. |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
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Posted - 2013.02.04 11:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Laser is definitely OP, all somebody has to do is look at me for 1/16th a second and 90% of my health is gone. Glad CCP is nerfing that garbage. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 11:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:Laser is definitely OP, all somebody has to do is look at me for 1/16th a second and 90% of my health is gone. Glad CCP is nerfing that garbage.
The Laser is broken, and I don't know about it being nerfed but if it is it will absolutely break the weapon in it's entirety. Neither of the skills actually work for it and the weapon itself doesn't really get much for buying the Advanced tier, only being able to fire it for 4% more of the magazine before it overheats.
Disagree. -1. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
1
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Posted - 2013.02.04 11:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
i haven't yet played dust enough to test it, but i've been playing eve for almost two years. your damage type has a lot to do with the damage received by the target.
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Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 12:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
low genius wrote:i haven't yet played dust enough to test it, but i've been playing eve for almost two years. your damage type has a lot to do with the damage received by the target.
Basically what I am trying to say is that before something gets nerfed for being "over-powered" the various damage ratios should be taken into account.
A good player making a lot of headshots might make a weapon look over powered, so nerfing it's damage as a whole is a bad route to take when you could simply just lower the damage increase to headshots. |
Jack McReady
A.C.M.E Corp
71
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Posted - 2013.02.04 13:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
iceyburnz wrote: B) Scrambler pistols do more headshot damage because of the "lore" of the weapon. They scramble neurons.
because getting some explosive SMG rounds into the face is less devasting than some "neuron scrambling" |
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HUGO SHTIGLETZ
RestlessSpirits
16
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Posted - 2013.02.04 13:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
well i just got done with a round were the top four people (on the opposing team unfortunately) were using HMGs going roughly
42-2 35-2 31-1 10-1
and won by a landslide so i deem that gun horrifically overpowered and anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't run into many heavy's. |
Calroon DeVil
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2013.02.04 13:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
HUGO SHTIGLETZ wrote:well i just got done with a round were the top four people (on the opposing team unfortunately) were using HMGs going roughly
42-2 35-2 31-1 10-1
and won by a landslide so i deem that gun horrifically overpowered and anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't run into many heavy's. Same can be said about the GEK. I'm watching a russian guy (who's streaming quite often) playing Assault and he goes 2x/2, 3x/3 many times (name's Askull). He's also playing with a gamepad not K&M. All these QQ nerf discussions are worthless and I hope CCP finds their own way instead of listening to airheads that like to 1vs1 a heavy or tank (hilarious). Too much Halo and CoD, waaaaay too much. |
HUGO SHTIGLETZ
RestlessSpirits
16
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Posted - 2013.02.04 13:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
no halo or cod here just an old mag vet, cus thats not team oriented.... the fact that a few heavies can run the game all by themselves is enough proof in its self. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 13:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
HUGO SHTIGLETZ wrote:well i just got done with a round were the top four people (on the opposing team unfortunately) were using HMGs going roughly
42-2 35-2 31-1 10-1
and won by a landslide so i deem that gun horrifically overpowered and anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't run into many heavy's. Or you were in a team where nobody had a clue how to counter Heavies.
When there are a lot of Heavies on the enemy team, it helps me to increase my K/D majorly. |
HUGO SHTIGLETZ
RestlessSpirits
16
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Posted - 2013.02.04 13:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:HUGO SHTIGLETZ wrote:well i just got done with a round were the top four people (on the opposing team unfortunately) were using HMGs going roughly
42-2 35-2 31-1 10-1
and won by a landslide so i deem that gun horrifically overpowered and anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't run into many heavy's. Or you were in a team where nobody had a clue how to counter Heavies. When there are a lot of Heavies on the enemy team, it helps me to increase my K/D majorly. i somewhat doubt this but hey maybe you know something that my whole corp doesnt |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 13:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
The main drawback to the Heavy is it's speed and sheer mass. Larger hit box and generally being a slow target makes it a much easier target - crossed with a slow turn speed and most Scouts (good ones) can run circles around Heavies.
You just have to know how to counter what you're fighting.
I recently started using the Assault Rifle again and I can honestly say that it's so versatile and such a staple weapon that I'm hard-pressed to use anything else.. Which is sad, because I really like the Mass Driver.
Edit: That and the fact that it trumps the Heavy Machine Gun in multiple aspects:
A.) Higher damage per round B.) Less dispersion/kick = more headshots C.) Higher Headshot damage. D.) Better range.
Assault Rifle really does trump the HMG, the only reason it's such a contender is because of it's sheer rate of fire and high capacity magazine. |
HUGO SHTIGLETZ
RestlessSpirits
16
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
ya, i once danced around a heavy with a scout/shotty drop but thats not something id every really use because my team mates and i are very team oriented and you cant squeeze much teamwork out of a scout, logi or assault is my typical pick and its a close fight every time i just dont win most of em |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 14:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
HUGO SHTIGLETZ wrote:ya, i once danced around a heavy with a scout/shotty drop but thats not something id every really use because my team mates and i are very team oriented and you cant squeeze much teamwork out of a scout, logi or assault is my typical pick and its a close fight every time i just dont win most of em
Not the fault of the Heavy, honestly. Poor bastard can't even get his own ammunition once he's out of ammo, lol. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 14:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
HUGO SHTIGLETZ wrote:ya, i once danced around a heavy with a scout/shotty drop but thats not something id every really use because my team mates and i are very team oriented and you cant squeeze much teamwork out of a scout, logi or assault is my typical pick and its a close fight every time i just dont win most of em A GOOD Scout supports teammates more often than running solo.
Use teammates as a distraction while sneaking around to flanking positions, or set targets up with a couple of hard hits before disappearing and letting your teammates shoot your weakened target(s) in the back.
If you're using a Scout and going off to lone-wolf it, you're not being as effective a Scout as you could be. |
Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
92
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 14:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote: Through testing it's figured that a GEK-38 Assault Rifle does 110% damage from 0-40 meters.
Very interesting thread, but I'm wondering, how did you test this part? And how did you arrive at the 95% damage for the HMG?
I can go into numbers/dork/testing mode on occasion, and it'd be interesting to tests parts of this myself. (Not as easy in DUST as it is in EVE, since you can't spontaneously PVP with friends...)
EDIT:
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Use teammates as a distraction while sneaking around to flanking positions, or set targets up with a couple of hard hits before disappearing and letting your teammates shoot your weakened target(s) in the back.
If you're using a Scout and going off to lone-wolf it, you're not being as effective a Scout as you could be.
When I'm lone-wolfing Scout in pub matches, I use those tactics exactly. It's just that the blueberries are usually unaware that they're playing a part. |
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Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think C&D are modifiers based on the weapons effectiveness against the curren 'layer' of HP. I think each weapon is a little different against full shields or armor. You will see different %ages against vehicles too especially if they have damage resistances. |
bethany valvetino
Dead Six Initiative
30
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
The back story hey is kinda complex, so I'll try and keep it short and sweet. There are for damage types in New Eden, broadly speaking there are each assigned to a race in Eve
EM = Amarr Explosive = Mini Kinetic = Caldari Thermal = Gal
The turth is that really is works more like this
Amarr = Em and Thermal Mini = Explosive and Em (though in real terms Mini can do almost ALL dmg types) Caldari = Kinetic and Thermal (often Cadari ships will have bonuses to kinitic damage, but like the minis can do all damage types) Galente = Thermal and Kinetic
and each race is weak vs certain damage types and uses a certain racial "tank" Galente and Amarr using amarr, the cadari using sheilds and the minis, having both but with limited strength on each as the mini ships "tank" with speed. Now each race also is weak to certain damage types.
Amarr = Thermal Mini = Kinetic Caldari = Em Galente = Explosive
(there are many back storys and "eve lore" reasons for this that i'm not going into now) Getting back on thread. Sheild will ALWAYS be weak to em but should give good resistance to other damage types, A laz0r will, as it is EM damage strip your Drop Ship shields VERY quickly. In Eve and I'm sure in Dust too soon (not seen them yet) you will be able to have modules that increase resistances against these damage types.
This is why sheilds and armour are effected differently by different weapon types.
It's also why Caldari LAVs, HAVs and Dropships have a shield tank set up and the slots to support it and Galente LAVs, HAVs and Dropships have the same for armour.
BV out |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 05:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote: Through testing it's figured that a GEK-38 Assault Rifle does 110% damage from 0-40 meters.
Very interesting thread, but I'm wondering, how did you test this part? And how did you arrive at the 95% damage for the HMG? I can go into numbers/dork/testing mode on occasion, and it'd be interesting to tests parts of this myself. (Not as easy in DUST as it is in EVE, since you can't spontaneously PVP with friends...)
Basically you just aim down the sight at a friendly/enemy and it shows all of the Efficiency ratings (and the range) in the lower left side. Incidentally enough, it also shows what they call their particular fit. |
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