DUST Search - Damage Escalation Theory and 'Overpowered' Weapons

iceyburnz wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

This brings up a few questions:

A.) Are damage ratios against Shields (such as body and head shots) any different than Armor?
B.) Why does the weapon affect the percentage of headshot damage, rather than the dropsuit being fired at? The Scrambler Pistol being an extreme case.
C.) Why does the GEK start at 110% from 0-40m, rather than 100%?
D.) Why does the HMG start at 95% from 0-40m, only to get lower and effectively never doing full damage on body shots?
E.) Why is there no clear indication of the weapon's effective range(s) listed on their attributes in the market?
F.) Why is there no clear indication that a certain weapon will do more or less damage to shields or armor listed on their attributes in the market?

Feel free to discuss.

A) Yes, some weapons do more armour damage others do more shield damage. Also shield and armour have better resists against some weapons.

B) Scrambler pistols do more headshot damage because of the "lore" of the weapon. They scramble neurons.

C-F) can't answer these.


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Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.04 10:58:00 - [1] - Quote To start off I want to say this: I don't feel that any weapon is currently overpowered. I feel, rather, that the game mechanics are very finicky and can be really confusing - as such, I have provided my own list of questions pertaining to this confusion toward the end of this post. After a much popular "Is the GEK OP?" thread I decided to look into some statistics Unfortunately, live fire wasn't actually tested but looking at a friendly will yield the same results anyway, so it all leads to the same overarching theme. I'm not going to berate you with useless banter such as the actual percentages on the stacking penalities (someone saying that some GEK users were using lots of damage modifiers) or even more wacky ideas (such as stacking penalities not applying at all, a worst case scenario). What I am going to propose is this: Damage Escalation based on Range. Through testing it's figured that a GEK-38 Assault Rifle does 110% damage from 0-40 meters. This means that someone using it with absolutely no Weaponry/Assault Rifle Proficiency skill, nor damage increasing modules, nets approximately 33.75 (110%) damage from the base damage per BODY shot. Given it's fire rate of 750, this means it can fire 12.5 rounds per second and thus equaling 421.875 DPS (damage per second). One-to-two seconds of continuous fire can down most of everything, including Heavies. However. Headshots do approximately 165% damage up to the same ranges, so the numbers are altered all together and look more like 53.625 damage per round and 670.3125 DPS. Long story short, here's the numbers: Range: 0-40m Body Shot: 33.75 Body DPS: 421.875 Head Shot: 53.625 Head DPS: 670.313 All skills Lvl 5: Body Shot: 44.688 Body DPS: 558.594 Head Shot: 67.025 Head DPS: 837.8125 All Skills Lvl 5 + 1 Prototype Damage Mod: Body Shot: 48.263 Body DPS: 603.281 Head Shot: 72.394 Head DPS: 904.922 Other weapons have different percentages. Some other weapons are as follows: Standard HMG (range 0-40m) Body: 95% Head: 142% Militia Scrambler Pistol (range 0-40m) Body: (not tested) Head: 450% So, basically, while the weapon may or may not be overpowered (I personally think the GEK makes battles last way too short, but that's just me) a GIANT factor is the Damage Escalation based on Range to Target. This brings up a few questions: A.) Are damage ratios against Shields (such as body and head shots) any different than Armor? Edit: Meaning, does a headshot against shields do more or less damage than a headshot against armor? B.) Why does the weapon affect the percentage of headshot damage, rather than the dropsuit being fired at? An explanation of this located in my thread: '(Feedback) Dropsuit Damage Ratios vs Weapon Damage Ratios' C.) Why does the GEK start at 110% from 0-40m, rather than 100%? D.) Why does the HMG start at 95% from 0-40m, only to get lower and effectively never doing full damage on body shots? E.) Why is there no clear indication of the weapon's effective range(s) listed on their attributes in the market? F.) Why is there no clear indication that a certain weapon will do more or less damage to shields or armor listed on their attributes in the market? G.) Why is there no clear indication of a weapon's damage ratios pertaining to body and heat shots listed on their attributes in the market? Feel free to discuss.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.04 11:10:00 - [2] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: This brings up a few questions: A.) Are damage ratios against Shields (such as body and head shots) any different than Armor? B.) Why does the weapon affect the percentage of headshot damage, rather than the dropsuit being fired at? The Scrambler Pistol being an extreme case. C.) Why does the GEK start at 110% from 0-40m, rather than 100%? D.) Why does the HMG start at 95% from 0-40m, only to get lower and effectively never doing full damage on body shots? E.) Why is there no clear indication of the weapon's effective range(s) listed on their attributes in the market? F.) Why is there no clear indication that a certain weapon will do more or less damage to shields or armor listed on their attributes in the market? Feel free to discuss. A) Yes, some weapons do more armour damage others do more shield damage. Also shield and armour have better resists against some weapons. B) Scrambler pistols do more headshot damage because of the "lore" of the weapon. They scramble neurons. C-F) can't answer these. A was more in reference to the damage ratios of the different places of being shot. What I mean to say is: Does a headshot against Shields do more/less damage than a headshot against Armor? B was meant to convey that a weapon should do more/less damage against the dropsuit specifically, rather than the weapon doing more damage itself. Basically, a scout has less shields/armor than an Assault suit, so the Scrambler Pistol would have a harder time punching through.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.04 11:19:00 - [3] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: A was more in reference to the damage ratios of the different places of being shot. What I mean to say is: Does a headshot against Shields do more/less damage than a headshot against Armor? B was meant to convey that a weapon should do more/less damage against the dropsuit specifically, rather than the weapon doing more damage itself. Basically, a scout has less shields/armor than an Assault suit, so the Scrambler Pistol would have a harder time punching through. These are then more difficult questions to answer. Much of the mechanics behind weapons has largely been obfucated by the devs either intentionally or unintentionally. Much of what people are posting is basically done through, what you have done, datamining, extrapolation and guess work. To be honest I can't accurately answer those questions now that you have calrified. Perhaps people who have delved into the realm of dust spreadsheeting will be able to shed some light, or a dev maybe. Sorry I couldn't be more help. All good. As I stated in another thread: What it boils down to is that certain weapons have insanely high damage ratios that aren't dependent on who's being fired at, with the Scrambler Pistol doing 450% to the head, making it at about 324 damage per shot. That's an instant kill on a Scout, and even some unskilled Logistics suits. This is based on the lore but it can be assumed that a dropsuit with more shields/armor would resist that weapon's damage more than simply absorbing more damage from it. 324 damage to 350 shields is still 324 damage. 324 damage to 350 shields with an added 5% resistance due to it being, say a Caldari Logistics suit, is more like 307-308. In laymens terms, it's like shooting a 9mm at a wooden board versus shooting a 9mm at a sheet of titanium. It's more "eve" like and it just makes more sense.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.04 11:27:00 - [4] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Laser is definitely OP, all somebody has to do is look at me for 1/16th a second and 90% of my health is gone. Glad CCP is nerfing that garbage. The Laser is broken, and I don't know about it being nerfed but if it is it will absolutely break the weapon in it's entirety. Neither of the skills actually work for it and the weapon itself doesn't really get much for buying the Advanced tier, only being able to fire it for 4% more of the magazine before it overheats. Disagree. -1.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.04 12:29:00 - [5] - Quote low genius wrote: i haven't yet played dust enough to test it, but i've been playing eve for almost two years. your damage type has a lot to do with the damage received by the target. Basically what I am trying to say is that before something gets nerfed for being "over-powered" the various damage ratios should be taken into account. A good player making a lot of headshots might make a weapon look over powered, so nerfing it's damage as a whole is a bad route to take when you could simply just lower the damage increase to headshots.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.04 13:56:00 - [6] - Quote The main drawback to the Heavy is it's speed and sheer mass. Larger hit box and generally being a slow target makes it a much easier target - crossed with a slow turn speed and most Scouts (good ones) can run circles around Heavies. You just have to know how to counter what you're fighting. I recently started using the Assault Rifle again and I can honestly say that it's so versatile and such a staple weapon that I'm hard-pressed to use anything else.. Which is sad, because I really like the Mass Driver. Edit: That and the fact that it trumps the Heavy Machine Gun in multiple aspects: A.) Higher damage per round B.) Less dispersion/kick = more headshots C.) Higher Headshot damage. D.) Better range. Assault Rifle really does trump the HMG, the only reason it's such a contender is because of it's sheer rate of fire and high capacity magazine.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.04 14:07:00 - [7] - Quote HUGO SHTIGLETZ wrote: ya, i once danced around a heavy with a scout/shotty drop but thats not something id every really use because my team mates and i are very team oriented and you cant squeeze much teamwork out of a scout, logi or assault is my typical pick and its a close fight every time i just dont win most of em Not the fault of the Heavy, honestly. Poor bastard can't even get his own ammunition once he's out of ammo, lol.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2013.02.05 05:12:00 - [8] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Through testing it's figured that a GEK-38 Assault Rifle does 110% damage from 0-40 meters. Very interesting thread, but I'm wondering, how did you test this part? And how did you arrive at the 95% damage for the HMG? I can go into numbers/dork/testing mode on occasion, and it'd be interesting to tests parts of this myself. (Not as easy in DUST as it is in EVE, since you can't spontaneously PVP with friends...) Basically you just aim down the sight at a friendly/enemy and it shows all of the Efficiency ratings (and the range) in the lower left side. Incidentally enough, it also shows what they call their particular fit.